Hail Mary????

[Dionysiou]

OK so im a christian, a follower of Christ. Now i have no interest in religious practises but why do you lot pray to "mother mary" i mean she was born a woman and died a woman. She wasnt with the Trinity in the beginning of time. Where in the bible does it say that i should worship mary? Ive heard of the "all people will call me blessed" so what, shes not telling you to pray to her. You say she was a virgin but how can you say that? Jesus had other siblings that were not conceived through the power of the Holy Spirit! As for the saints they are dead! So is mary! why would you pray to them so that they can pray to God for you? Isnt Jesus our mediator? Do you know the Holy Spirit? Brothers and sisters, i await your answers! Btw i never read about any biblical saints who prayed to dead saints, if it is so effective than why didnt they do it?

 

[stuntman141]

Amen brother

 

[relling]

OK so im a christian, a follower of Christ. Now i have no interest in religious practises...

That is a sadness for Christians to not practice the religious life (James 1:27). To do so in some circles is quaintly called the "me-and-Jesus-two-step".

Where in the bible does it say that i should worship mary?

We don't worship her. We ask her to pray for us just as I might ask you to pray for me.

Ive heard of the "all people will call me blessed" so what, shes not telling you to pray to her. You say she was a virgin but how can you say that? Jesus had other siblings that were not conceived through the power of the Holy Spirit!

There is nothing in Scripture to prove Mary gave birth to anyone other than Jesus.

As for the saints they are dead! So is mary! why would you pray to them so that they can pray to God for you?

Saints are dead to this world but alive in Christ. Again, believing them to be able to hear our requests we ask them to pray for us just as I might ask you to pray for me.

Isnt Jesus our mediator?

1 Titus 2:5 tells us that there is one mediator between God and man - Jesus Christ. His mediation is unique because he is both God and man.
Others who we ask to pray for us, both on earth and the Saints in heaven, also play a role of mediation but they take nothing away from the role of Jesus as the "one mediator".

Do you know the Holy Spirit?

Yes.
Do you have the Holy Spirit?

I gave some rather short answers. If you want to discuss any of these further, just let me know.

God bless you

 

[Anglian]

OK so im a christian, a follower of Christ. Now i have no interest in religious practises but why do you lot pray to "mother mary" i mean she was born a woman and died a woman. She wasnt with the Trinity in the beginning of time. Where in the bible does it say that i should worship mary? Ive heard of the "all people will call me blessed" so what, shes not telling you to pray to her. You say she was a virgin but how can you say that? Jesus had other siblings that were not conceived through the power of the Holy Spirit! As for the saints they are dead! So is mary! why would you pray to them so that they can pray to God for you? Isnt Jesus our mediator? Do you know the Holy Spirit? Brothers and sisters, i await your answers! Btw i never read about any biblical saints who prayed to dead saints, if it is so effective than why didnt they do it?

It would be better to take this to Theology/Mariology where there are about 5 threads on this theme. Under the Forum rules you are not allowed to come here to debate Catholic practices. But let me try to answer your questions all the same.

she was born a woman and died a woman. She wasnt with the Trinity in the beginning of time.

Not one Catholic has ever claimed anything to the contrary.

Where in the bible does it say that i should worship mary?

No Catholic worships the Blessed Virgin. We pray to Christ through her. But let me ask you a question: where in the Bible does it tell you what books should be in it? How do you know what books should be in it if you rely solely on the Bible?

Ive heard of the "all people will call me blessed" so what, shes not telling you to pray to her.

We pray to Christ through her. Do you not ask friends to pray for you?

You say she was a virgin but how can you say that? Jesus had other siblings that were not conceived through the power of the Holy Spirit!

Says who? The Greek word used in the Bible does not necessarily mean uterine brother. The same Church which recognised the Canon of Scripture also practised intercessory prayer. You accept its book but not its practices - why?

As for the saints they are dead! So is mary! why would you pray to them so that they can pray to God for you? Isnt Jesus our mediator?

Can you show me where the NT agrees with you? Can you show where the early Church agreed with you? Why is it you think you know better than the NT and the early Church?

Do you know the Holy Spirit? Brothers and sisters, i await your answers! Btw i never read about any biblical saints who prayed to dead saints, if it is so effective than why didnt they do it?

Yes, we do, and He leads us to Marian veneration; do you not know Him and know this?

As I say, there are more appropriate parts of the Forum where we can have such discussions. This is a Catholic Chapel; are you in the habit of coming into a Church and starting arguments?

peace,

Anglian

 

[Dark_Lite]

This thread has been moved from the OBOB Chapel subforum. Have at it!

 

[laconicstudent]

OK so im a christian, a follower of Christ. Now i have no interest in religious practises but why do you lot pray to "mother mary" i mean she was born a woman and died a woman. She wasnt with the Trinity in the beginning of time. Where in the bible does it say that i should worship mary?

It doesn't.

Ive heard of the "all people will call me blessed" so what, shes not telling you to pray to her.

No.... Because that statement has nothing to do with praying to Mary, either way.

You say she was a virgin but how can you say that? Jesus had other siblings that were not conceived through the power of the Holy Spirit!

Some interpret that as referring to cousins. Or children Joseph had from another marriage. There are alternative explanations

As for the saints they are dead! So is mary!

So is Jes-! oh wait sec..... No he's not.

why would you pray to them so that they can pray to God for you?

Why do you ask your friends and family to pray for you?

Isnt Jesus our mediator?

Do you have something against having more then one?

Do you know the Holy Spirit?

This is relevant how?

Brothers and sisters, i await your answers! Btw i never read about any biblical saints who prayed to dead saints, if it is so effective than why didnt they do it?

The New Testament letters are full of admonitions to pray for each other.

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

OK so im a christian, a follower of Christ. Now i have no interest in religious practises

And let us consider one another, to provoke unto charity and to good works: Not forsaking our assembly, as some are accustomed; but comforting one another, and so much the more as you see the day approaching.

It makes no sense to be "a follower of Christ" and also "have no interest in religious practices". Having an active community and prayer life is very important to following Christ, much more than just thinking he's a good teacher.

but why do you lot pray to "mother mary" i mean she was born a woman and died a woman.

Were you expecting her to die a man? That would be weird...

She wasnt with the Trinity in the beginning of time.

True. Also irrelevant.

As a side note, she did not exist as a reality until she was born (we do not believe in the "pre-existence of souls" as Origen and some modern heretics have supposed) but as I have noted in other threads, she was predestined from the very first moment of existence to be the Mother of God since the Incarnation was planned from the very first moment of existence. The words of God to the prophet Jeremiah can be applied more fully to Our Lady:

Before I formed thee in the bowels of thy mother, I knew thee: and before thou camest forth out of the womb, I sanctified thee

Where in the bible does it say that i should worship mary? Ive heard of the "all people will call me blessed" so what, shes not telling you to pray to her.

It says that you should venerate and bless her, as we do. If you mean "worship" in a broad sense, as is often applied to people in secular settings (such as "Your Worship"), then that is worship. If you mean "worship" as the worship due to God, then obviously giving that worship to Mary or any other creature would be idolatry. English does not have a good word for a distinction (though "adoration" often suffices for worship of God) and neither does Latin. So we adopt the Greek terms which distinguish veneration of the saints (dulia) from worship of God (latria). As greatest of all the saints, Mary has a particularly special reverence due her (hyperdulia).

Referring to the title of this thread, if you have a problem with the "Hail Mary", you need to take that up with St. Gabriel.

You say she was a virgin but how can you say that?

Because she was a virgin before, during and after the birth of Christ.

And he brought me back to the way of the gate of the outward sanctuary, which looked towards the east: and it was shut. And the Lord said to me: This gate shall be shut, it shall not be opened, and no man shall pass through it: because the Lord the God of Israel hath entered in by it, and it shall be shut for the prince. The prince himself shall sit in it, to eat bread before the Lord: he shall enter in by the way of the porch of the gate, and shall go out by the same way.

Jesus had other siblings that were not conceived through the power of the Holy Spirit!

No, he didn't. The Bible never says He had siblings, you can't just invent things. This, however, is another (and there are many) thread.

As for the saints they are dead! So is mary!

Well, that's a very cynical view. If you believe everybody is dead and not in Heaven then no wonder you have no interest in religion!

why would you pray to them so that they can pray to God for you? Isnt Jesus our mediator?

Confess therefore your sins one to another: and pray one for another, that you may be saved. For the continual prayer of a just man availeth much.

Do you know the Holy Spirit?

Yes.

Veni, Sancte Spiritus, reple tuorum corda fidelium: et tui amoris in eis ignem accende. V. Emitte Spiritum tuum, et creabuntur. R. Et renovabis faciem terrae. Oremus. Deus, qui corda fidelium Sancti Spiritus illustratione docuisti: da nobis in eodem Spiritu recta sapere; et de eius semper consolatione gaudere. Per Christum, Dominum nostrum.

Come, Holy Spirit, fill the hearts of Thy faithful and enkindle in them the fire of Thy love. V. Send forth Thy Spirit and they shall be created. R. And Thou shalt renew the face of the earth. Let us pray. O God, Who didst instruct the hearts of the faithful by the light of the Holy Spirit, grant us in the same Spirit to be truly wise, and ever to rejoice in His consolation. Through Christ our Lord.

The Veni Creator Spiritus is a beautiful hymn but too long to post.

The apostles practiced Confirmation:

For he was not as yet come upon any of them; but they were only baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid their hands upon them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

And it came to pass, while Apollo was at Corinth, that Paul having passed through the upper coasts, came to Ephesus, and found certain disciples. And he said to them: Have you received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? But they said to him: We have not so much as heard whether there be a Holy Ghost. And he said: In what then were you baptized? Who said: In John's baptism. Then Paul said: John baptized the people with the baptism of penance, saying: That they should believe in him who was to come after him, that is to say, in Jesus. Having heard these things, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had imposed his hands on them, the Holy Ghost came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied.

Btw i never read about any biblical saints who prayed to dead saints, if it is so effective than why didnt they do it?

There are no dead saints. We only pray to living saints.

 

[Livindesert]

No, he didn't. The Bible never says He had siblings, you can't just invent things. This, however, is another (and there are many) thread.

He is not the one inventing things.....

 

[Livindesert]

OK so im a christian, a follower of Christ. Now i have no interest in religious practises but why do you lot pray to "mother mary" i mean she was born a woman and died a woman. She wasnt with the Trinity in the beginning of time. Where in the bible does it say that i should worship mary? Ive heard of the "all people will call me blessed" so what, shes not telling you to pray to her. You say she was a virgin but how can you say that? Jesus had other siblings that were not conceived through the power of the Holy Spirit! As for the saints they are dead! So is mary! why would you pray to them so that they can pray to God for you? Isnt Jesus our mediator? Do you know the Holy Spirit? Brothers and sisters, i await your answers! Btw i never read about any biblical saints who prayed to dead saints, if it is so effective than why didnt they do it?

Amen brother Keep thinking for yourself take no dogma from nobody Also get a concordance study some greek don't let anybody tell you how to interpet anything! The easy way is to accept everything someone tells you is apostolic, the correct and narrow way is the way through Christ!

 

[Sphinx777]

Click Me





​

 

[seashale76]

Quoting scripture is wrong?

Luke 1:28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

Luke 1:42 Then she spoke out with a loud voice and said, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb!

 

[seashale76]

Also, yet again, here are some scriptures that talk about the saints being alive in Christ. There is nothing wrong with asking for intercessory prayer. If you can ask your neighbors to pray for you, you can ask those whom Christ himself has told you are alive (and not dead) to pray for you as well.

John 11:23-27
“Jesus said to her, ‘Your brother will rise.’ Martha said to him, ‘I know he will rise, in the resurrection on the last day.’ ”

“Jesus told her, ‘I am the resurrection and the life; whoever believes in me, even if he dies, will live, and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?’ ” She said to him, ‘Yes, Lord. I have come to believe that you are the Messiah, the Son of God, ...’ ”

Matthew 22:32
“ ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”


Luke 20:38
“and he is not God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”

Hebrews 12:1
“Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us rid ourselves of every burden and sin that clings to us and persevere in running the race that lies before us"

 

[Dionysiou]

However you twist it, praying to these saints and mary so they can pray for you is ridiculous. The saints and mary have better things to do then pray for you, they are too busy worshipping God in heaven. Jesus died for you and closed the gap between you and God but here you are praying to the saints even though you can pray to the source. do you honestly believe that God will be more inclined to answer your prayers because your praying to someone else so they can pray for you? This relationship with God is solely based on your personal journey but here you are trying to rely on the saints to do the work for you. In actual fact praying to these saints is useless and religous, Pray to the Trinity. I think discernment would be something you should ask God for, this time though dont ask mary to do it for you, do it yourself.

 

[Bushido216]

Prayer means "request". "Pray tell", and so on. By praying to the Saints, we're asking for their prayers on the subject as well as our own. When I pray to Mary to ask for her intercession on something or other, I'm asking her to pray with me, not to pray in my place.

It's the rough equivalent of asking your Church to pray for you on some problem or other. You're asking that they join their prayers to yours, not to do your praying for you.

 

[seashale76]

However you twist it, praying to these saints and mary so they can pray for you is ridiculous. The saints and mary have better things to do then pray for you, they are too busy worshipping God in heaven. Jesus died for you and closed the gap between you and God but here you are praying to the saints even though you can pray to the source. do you honestly believe that God will be more inclined to answer your prayers because your praying to someone else so they can pray for you? This relationship with God is solely based on your personal journey but here you are trying to rely on the saints to do the work for you. In actual fact praying to these saints is useless and religous, Pray to the Trinity. I think discernment would be something you should ask God for, this time though dont ask mary to do it for you, do it yourself.

This is a copy-paste of various posts of mine on this topic as I see no reason to post new things to new people when even the old people didn't read them the first go around.

I pray thee, good sir, to harken unto my post.

What you have posted is a straw man. We DO go directly to the Holy Trinity in prayer. However, the next time someone at your church, or wherever, asks you to pray for them, I wonder if you would simply tell them to only go to Christ and not bother you with the task of praying for them?

Mary, the Theotokos (God bearer) does intercede for us through prayer, as do ALL the saints. When a person asks the Theotokos, or any other saint, to pray for them, it is just like when we ask for anyone else to pray for us. The saints are alive in Christ. So, while a person wouldn't go to hell for rejecting their prayers, it would certainly be a shame for them not to take advantage of the opportunity. Those in the Church are ALIVE in Christ, because God is the God of the living and not the dead. The God I worship is the God of the living. The saints of the Church are ALIVE in Christ. I will ask them to pray for me, as I ask my other brothers and sisters in Christ to pray for me, and I them.

As the Paschal Troparion says: Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death, and upon those in the tombs bestowing life!

There are around six different Greek words that are usually translated into English as 'prayer'. These words encompass supplications, interecessions, thanksgiving, etc. Prayer to the saints IS NOT WORSHIP! Perhaps this misconception came about from bad translation? At any rate, I Timothy 2:4 upholds the practice of intercession for others, and we are quite cognizant of the fact that Christ's mediation is what makes intercession possible.

More scripture for you (some a repeat of my previous post):

John 6:47-51
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. I am that bread of life. Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”

John 5:25-29
“Truly, truly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself, and has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of man. Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment.

Matthew 27:51-53
“And behold, the veil of the sanctuary was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth quaked, rocks were split, tombs were opened, and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised. And coming forth from their tombs after his resurrection, they entered the holy city and appeared to many.”

John 11:23-27
“Jesus said to her, ‘Your brother will rise.’ Martha said to him, ‘I know he will rise, in the resurrection on the last day.’ ”

“Jesus told her, ‘I am the resurrection and the life; whoever believes in me, even if he dies, will live, and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?’ ” She said to him, ‘Yes, Lord. I have come to believe that you are the Messiah, the Son of God, ...’ ”

Matthew 22:32
“ ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”

Luke 20:38
“and he is not God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”

Revelation 21:27
“ … but nothing unclean will enter it, nor any (one) who does abominable things or tells lies. Only those will enter whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.”

John 8:51
“Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever keeps my word will never see death.”

Revelation 5:8-10
“… and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints; and they sang a new song, saying, ‘Worthy art thou to take the scroll and to open its seals, for thou wast slain and by thy blood didst ransom men for God from every tribe and tongue and people and nation,10 and hast made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on earth.’ ”

Revelation 11:16-18
“And the twenty-four elders who sit on their thrones before God fell on their faces and worshiped God, saying, ‘We give thanks to thee, Lord God Almighty, who art and who wast, that thou hast taken thy great power and begun to reign. The nations raged, but thy wrath came, and the time for the dead to be judged, for rewarding thy servants, the prophets and saints, and those who fear thy name, both small and great, and for destroying the destroyers of the earth.’ ”

Hebrews 12:1
“Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us rid ourselves of every burden and sin that clings to us and persevere in running the race that lies before us"

Luke 15:7
“I tell you, in just the same way there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous people who have no need of repentance.”

Hebrews 12:22-23"No, you have approached Mount Zion and the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and countless angels in festal gathering,
and the assembly of the firstborn enrolled in heaven, and God the judge of all, and the spirits of the just made perfect,"

Revelation 8:3
“I saw another angel who came and stood before the altar holding a golden censer and much incense was given to him that he might add it to the prayers of the saints upon the golden altar that was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense with the prayers of the saints went up before God out of the angel’s hand. And the angel took the censer and he filled it with the fire from the altar and threw it to the earth and there followed peals of thunder, and sounds and flashes of lightning and an earthquake."

 

[laconicstudent]

Hail Mary full of Grace the Lord is with thee, blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus. Holy Mary Mother of God pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death amen.

 

[Dionysiou]

wow ok some of those verses you listed are completely irrelevant and out of context but i see they all send one message "That no one in Christ is ever dead". I agree with that and i get that you dont worship them, i see that now. Even so praying to them so they can pray for you based on the merit of their good deeds while on earth is irrelevant now. In your hour of judgement do you honestly think God will care how much you prayed to mary or peter or anyother saint?. Hes only going to be interested in how you prayed to Him. saints who are in heaven can bring you no closer to God, they cannot teach you His ways. Only Jesus can. Yet here you are convincing yourself that your prayers are more effective because your getting saints to supposedly do it for you. there is no problem asking a friend to pray for you if you feel thats what the Holy Spirit is pushing on you. They are still alive on earth and are being trialled as you are. Whos to say that all of these saints whom you pray to are even in heaven? how do you know? Aside from what ive already said, they could be in hell, and your praying to them without knowledge of even where they are. Lets take a look at some more renowned saints shall we? Paul, Isaiah, James, basically any and all who are in the bible nowadays. Have you ever read about them praying to their dead friends? i havent. ask yourself why you are even praying to them in the first place? did your catholic priest tell you to do it? your parents or did you get guided by the Holy Spirit to begin doing it? More importantly have your prayers been answered when you've prayed to saints. You are supposed to be in Gods will when you pray and your only agreeing with wateva God wants for you, so praying to saints is useless in that sense. BTW Mary wont effect the outcome of your judgement in any way, so stop comforting yourself with that lie. Hail Mary yea right, Hail Jesus period.

 

[laconicstudent]

wow ok some of those verses you listed are completely irrelevant and out of context but i see they all send one message "That no one in Christ is ever dead". I agree with that and i get that you dont worship them, i see that now. Even so praying to them so they can pray for you based on the merit of their good deeds while on earth is irrelevant now.

What why?

In your hour of judgement do you honestly think God will care how much you prayed to mary or peter or anyother saint?. Hes only going to be interested in how you prayed to Him.

Uh, yeah, well praying to the saints asking them to pray for you doesn't preclude praying to God yourself.

saints who are in heaven can bring you no closer to God, they cannot teach you His ways. Only Jesus can.

No one argued that, but they certainly can pray for us.

Yet here you are convincing yourself that your prayers are more effective because your getting saints to supposedly do it for you.

No, but we are exhorted in Scripture to pray for one another.

there is no problem asking a friend to pray for you if you feel thats what the Holy Spirit is pushing on you. They are still alive on earth and are being trialled as you are.

Wait, we'd already accomplished that no one in Christ is dead. See your own first paragraph.

Whos to say that all of these saints whom you pray to are even in heaven? how do you know?

Miracles, incorruptible remains etc. etc.

Aside from what ive already said, they could be in hell, and your praying to them without knowledge of even where they are.

Are you seriously having to make this argument? :o

Lets take a look at some more renowned saints shall we? Paul, Isaiah, James, basically any and all who are in the bible nowadays.

The one's you are doubting are even in heaven, ironically.

Have you ever read about them praying to their dead friends?

Yes, the exhort us to pray for one another. Also, Maccabees.

i havent. ask yourself why you are even praying to them in the first place?

To ask them to pray for us.

did your catholic priest tell you to do it? your parents or did you get guided by the Holy Spirit to begin doing it?

Seems logical.

More importantly have your prayers been answered when you've prayed to saints.

Yes.

You are supposed to be in Gods will when you pray and your only agreeing with wateva God wants for you,

We are allowed to ask God for things, you know. Even Jesus did that.

so praying to saints is useless in that sense.

Why?

BTW Mary wont effect the outcome of your judgement

Of course not. Still won't hurt to have God's own Mother asking her Son for mercy on our behalf, though.

in any way, so stop comforting yourself with that lie.

Lol.

Hail Mary yea right, Hail Jesus period.

Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now, and at the hour of our death. Amen.

 

[Musa80]

wow ok some of those verses you listed are completely irrelevant and out of context but i see they all send one message "That no one in Christ is ever dead". I agree with that and i get that you dont worship them, i see that now. Even so praying to them so they can pray for you based on the merit of their good deeds while on earth is irrelevant now. In your hour of judgement do you honestly think God will care how much you prayed to mary or peter or anyother saint?. Hes only going to be interested in how you prayed to Him. saints who are in heaven can bring you no closer to God, they cannot teach you His ways. Only Jesus can. Yet here you are convincing yourself that your prayers are more effective because your getting saints to supposedly do it for you. there is no problem asking a friend to pray for you if you feel thats what the Holy Spirit is pushing on you. They are still alive on earth and are being trialled as you are. Whos to say that all of these saints whom you pray to are even in heaven? how do you know? Aside from what ive already said, they could be in hell, and your praying to them without knowledge of even where they are. Lets take a look at some more renowned saints shall we? Paul, Isaiah, James, basically any and all who are in the bible nowadays. Have you ever read about them praying to their dead friends? i havent. ask yourself why you are even praying to them in the first place? did your catholic priest tell you to do it? your parents or did you get guided by the Holy Spirit to begin doing it? More importantly have your prayers been answered when you've prayed to saints. You are supposed to be in Gods will when you pray and your only agreeing with wateva God wants for you, so praying to saints is useless in that sense. BTW Mary wont effect the outcome of your judgement in any way, so stop comforting yourself with that lie. Hail Mary yea right, Hail Jesus period.

Ahh yes. I was wondering when we'd get a noob on here still suffering under the delusion that these types of arguments are anything new. Well guess what, they're not. In fact we've all seen this line of argumentation 5000 times at least on here, and it was stupid the first time, the fifth time, the fiftieth time, the...oh I'm sure you get it. Point is, from this side of the pasture, your argument is hardly novel or persuasive, rather just the same old bull being trotted up and down the fence line. It would be funny if it weren't more than a bit tragic.

EDIT: Ahem. I almost forgot something.

Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now, and at the hour of our death. Amen.

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

wow ok some of those verses you listed are completely irrelevant and out of context

Just because you don't understand the Scriptures doesn't mean other people don't.

but i see they all send one message "That no one in Christ is ever dead". I agree with that

We're one step further.

and i get that you dont worship them, i see that now.

Well, I figured it was obvious...

Even so praying to them so they can pray for you based on the merit of their good deeds while on earth is irrelevant now.

Why is it irrelevant now? Isn't now when we are working out our salvation?!? I think waiting until I've fallen asleep to pray for my soul is a bit too late...

In your hour of judgement do you honestly think God will care how much you prayed to mary or peter or anyother saint?. Hes only going to be interested in how you prayed to Him.

Is there a difference?

saints who are in heaven can bring you no closer to God, they cannot teach you His ways. Only Jesus can.

And behold a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch, of great authority under Candace the queen of the Ethiopians, who had charge over all her treasures, had come to Jerusalem to adore. And he was returning, sitting in his chariot, and reading Isaias the prophet. And the Spirit said to Philip: Go near, and join thyself to this chariot. And Philip running thither, heard him reading the prophet Isaias. And he said: Thinkest thou that thou understandest what thou readest? Who said: And how can I, unless some man shew me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.

Iron sharpeneth iron, so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend.

For if you have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet not many fathers. For in Christ Jesus, by the gospel, I have begotten you. Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me, as I also am of Christ.

At what point does the Bible say that we are islands and that we are not supposed to listen to and help one another? Because it says many times quite the opposite, that we are a community, that we must convert one another and pray for one another. Now you suggest that people should just sit in an empty room and meditate with no relationship to the outside world like Buddhist monks? Even a Christian hermit is profoundly social in ways that most men in the world are not.

Yet here you are convincing yourself that your prayers are more effective because your getting saints to supposedly do it for you.

And after the Lord had spoken these words to Job, he said to Eliphaz the Themanite: My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends, because you have not spoken the thing that is right before me, as my servant Job hath. Take unto you therefore seven oxen, and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer for yourselves a holocaust: and my servant Job shall pray for you: his face I will accept, that folly be not imputed to you: for you have not spoken right things before me, as my servant Job hath. So Eliphaz the Themanite, and Baldad the Suhite, and Sophar the Naamathite went, and did as the Lord had spoken to them, and the Lord accepted the face of Job. The Lord also was turned at the penance of Job, when he prayed for his friends.

Confess therefore your sins one to another: and pray one for another, that you may be saved. For the continual prayer of a just man availeth much. Elias was a man passible like unto us: and with prayer he prayed that it might not rain upon the earth, and it rained not for three years and six months. And he prayed again: and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit. My brethren, if any of you err from the truth, and one convert him: He must know that he who causeth a sinner to be converted from the error of his way, shall save his soul from death, and shall cover a multitude of sins.

there is no problem asking a friend to pray for you if you feel thats what the Holy Spirit is pushing on you.

Actually, it requires no vague "pushing" by the Holy Spirit, it is commanded in Scripture.

Is my Mother not my friend?

They are still alive on earth and are being trialled as you are.

How much greater then the benefit of my friends who are alive in Heaven and have conquered the trials of this life?

Whos to say that all of these saints whom you pray to are even in heaven? how do you know? Aside from what ive already said, they could be in hell, and your praying to them without knowledge of even where they are.

Saints are, by definition, in Heaven. Formally canonizations are part of the infallible ordinary universal Magisterium and to be believed de fide tenenda which is distinct from those things which are part of the Deposit of Faith (ie. Holy Scripture and Holy Tradition) and must be believed de fide credenda but no less infallible and true. It is just because the Deposit of Faith is closed at the death of the last apostle and thus nothing can be added to it, including canonizations.

St. Thomas Aquinas writes:

Canonizatio vero Sanctorum medium est inter haec duo: quia tamen honor, quem Sanctis exhibemus, quaedam professio fidei est, qua Sanctorum gloriam credimus; pie credendum est, quod nee etiam in his judicium Ecclesiae errare possit. -- Ergo dicendum, quod Pontifex, cujus est canonizare Sanctos, potest certificari de statu alicujus per inquisitionem vitae, et attestationem miraculorum, et praecipue per instinctum Spiritus sancti.

Which is to say that canonizations are made by a thorough investigation of the life of the individual and attestations to miracles but especially by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Thus they are infallible and to be believed as part of the faith.

I have several post on the subject in this thread, particularly the discussion on the infallibility of canonizations between Albion and myself.

Lets take a look at some more renowned saints shall we? Paul, Isaiah, James, basically any and all who are in the bible nowadays. Have you ever read about them praying to their dead friends? i havent.

We are told to pray for each other and given many examples of people asking for the prayers of others (St. Paul does it repeatedly in his epistles). We are told that the Saints and angels pray for us in Heaven. We are told that the "great cloud of Witnesses" surrounds us and encourages us in our race. It is not a great stretch of the imagination to ask these Witnesses, these Saints, to pray for us since they are already doing so!

ask yourself why you are even praying to them in the first place? did your catholic priest tell you to do it? your parents or did you get guided by the Holy Spirit to begin doing it?

You keep using God the Holy Spirit to mean a vague sense of intuition or something. God the Holy Spirit works through His Church. So yes, the Holy Spirit does tell us to do so. It has been done since the beginning of the Church and it will continue until the end of time.

More importantly have your prayers been answered when you've prayed to saints.

Yes, all the time.

You are supposed to be in Gods will when you pray and your only agreeing with wateva God wants for you, so praying to saints is useless in that sense.

So you do not believe that you should pray to God for anything? This is anti-Biblical and anti-Christian. Here is a long justification for the efficacy of prayer and how it effects an unchangeable God (contrasted with "process theology").

BTW Mary wont effect the outcome of your judgement in any way, so stop comforting yourself with that lie.

Are you a Calvinist then? Your last statement was that we should never pray for anything because God will do whatever He wills anyway, now you say that we should not even pray for our souls because that is useless. Pure Hyper-Calvinistic fatalism.

Hail Mary yea right, Hail Jesus period.

Take it up with St. Gabriel!

Hail, Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women and blessed is the Fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.