Ha'av HaBen V'Ruach Hakodesh

[HayaLovesYeshua]

Shalom Guys,
How are you?
Well,I don't know your belief so much, well, I mean that it's not a secret that there are many disagreements among the messianics/messianic jews ...like keeping kosher etc...
I know some messianics that believe that:
1.The Father=the Son=Holy Spirit..and I think the most of the believers believe that :
2.There is ONE God but with 3 entities, God= Haa'v [the Father] HaBen [The Son] v'Ruach Hakodesh [Holy Spirit],they believe that the Father isn't Yeshua, and Yeshua isn't the Holy Spirit or the Father,and that the Holy Spirit isn't the Father or the Son...

My belief is like No.2.
Yes, I do believe there is ONE God,with 3 entities,and that Yeshua isn't the Father [etc..].

I have a question for you: what is your belief?
Sorry for asking, just curious !

Have a blessed day ,
Haya.

 

[Hadassah]

hi Haya.

I'm not sure exactly how I can explain my belief, but it is different from "oneness pentecostals" and different from "the church" (esp that which I came from) as well as different from some messianics.

I see it kind of this way.

We live in a 3-d world kind of like a fish tank. G-d puts his hand over us, and we each see different things (A finger, a hand, an arm... a person..)

But it's the same thing... the same person.. some people argue about what it is/isn't - some accept what it is, some deny it was even there... (lol)


I see it kind of like the Sephiratic tree. There are three pillars, but it is still "echad".

When G-d is with us, he manifests in a way we can comprehend.

We are told that "no man can see G-d and live" (that is The Father) - but we are told of Y'shua (the son, the mediator/redeemer, Metatron/The angel of YHVH) "If you have seen me, you have seen the father" - and we know that the Ruach is HIS Spirit, because He said "I will send a comfortor, but I must leave before he comes" [paraphrase]...

We can't comprehend it all 100% because we aren't like we were in Gan Eden.. but it is all Him and Echad.

All three function together, but aren't seperate people.. which I think is a reason why He is referred to as "El-him" yet "echad".

 

[HayaLovesYeshua]

you remind me that someone explain to her child about God..you know how can 3 be one...
So she explained it in an Egg...you know,peel+yolk +white of egg ; protein = one egg...very simple example, but true...it's not 3 eggs...but one..with 3 components: the yolk isn't the peel or the protein..
This is how I believe... and thanks u so much for your answer ,dear sister.

 

[Hadassah]

Yes! that's how one of my elders explained to me too.

Depending where we're at, will depend what we see and/or experience.

 

[Andyman_1970]

For me that is one of the mysteries of God that I try not to define what we are referring to technically like modern Christianity in it's reductionism has done.

For me the mystery is the truth, rather than the truth being some sort of definiton or explaination our finite minds try to conceive.

This to me is one of the example of the difference between Greek Western thinking and Hebrew Eastern thinking. Greek Western thinking is very much driven by definitions and when two ideas conflict it's very much an "either or" proposition. Where as the Hebrew Eastern way of thinking is comfortable holding two seemingly contradictory ideas to be simultaniously (sp?) true, instead of an "either or" it's more like "both and".

 

[Hadassah]

yep!

 

[plum]

For me that is one of the mysteries of God that I try not to define what we are referring to technically like modern Christianity in it's reductionism has done.

For me the mystery is the truth, rather than the truth being some sort of definiton or explaination our finite minds try to conceive.

This to me is one of the example of the difference between Greek Western thinking and Hebrew Eastern thinking. Greek Western thinking is very much driven by definitions and when two ideas conflict it's very much an "either or" proposition. Where as the Hebrew Eastern way of thinking is comfortable holding two seemingly contradictory ideas to be simultaniously (sp?) true, instead of an "either or" it's more like "both and".

you're my man, Andyman!

"word" to the above

 

[Wags]

Ditto to what Eirene said...

 

[visionary]

I have a contented attitude towards the subject. We will soon all see clearly, but we can also be rest assured now that all the pieces it together. While we are trying to put the pieces together to see the whole picture, we often have tried to put a piece where it doesn ot belong. I have put enough puzzles together to be content to know when the piece is right it fits in easily and perfectly and then makes sense.

 

[plum]

vis is right.... we must all be contented in our not-knowing...

 

[P_G]

The whole trinity thing is so daunting you know. Like how to describe it and more so how to understand it. I can give you my very fancy bible college definition but I cant still get my brain around the concept.

I know all 3 are G-d
I know all 3 are one.

How the Almighty worked the whole thing out still baffles me.

PG

 

[visionary]

It is our linear mind trying to discribe and understand an infinite God.

 

[ContraMundum]

This to me is one of the example of the difference between Greek Western thinking and Hebrew Eastern thinking. Greek Western thinking is very much driven by definitions and when two ideas conflict it's very much an "either or" proposition. Where as the Hebrew Eastern way of thinking is comfortable holding two seemingly contradictory ideas to be simultaniously (sp?) true, instead of an "either or" it's more like "both and".

An Eastern Orthodox Christian would probably get real offended by that!

Greek thought is not "black and white" or "either/or", but rather, that's Latin thought. The Greek way of thinking is much more into "mystery and paradox" than you may think. When I took philosophy of religion in seminary I was struck by the wonderful un-dogmatic approach of the Eastern Church to the mysteries of G-d and yet impressed by the careful distinctivity of the Latin church (the type of process that seeks to "rightly divide" the Word.) However, I think that traditional Hebraic (and thus orthodox Christian) epistemology combines the two, and allows both intense halachic discussion and the theological mystery to survive side-by-side.

 

[HayaLovesYeshua]

The whole trinity thing is so daunting you know. Like how to describe it and more so how to understand it. I can give you my very fancy bible college definition but I cant still get my brain around the concept.

I know all 3 are G-d
I know all 3 are one.

How the Almighty worked the whole thing out still baffles me.
Brother,
God is too HUGE for our small brain, I'm not saying we're stupid [sometimes I can say that about myself..] but God is too much huge and...wonderful [etc etc etc] for our human brain.
We will not understand God in 100%..we can know him, but not perfectly...until we'll meet him face to face.
I think in this hard times, we have to ask God for more wisdom to understand His word...
Ya'akov [James] 1:
''If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him. But when he asks, he must believe and not doubt''

 

[Andyman_1970]

An Eastern Orthodox Christian would probably get real offended by that!

Greek thought is not "black and white" or "either/or", but rather, that's Latin thought. The Greek way of thinking is much more into "mystery and paradox" than you may think. When I took philosophy of religion in seminary I was struck by the wonderful un-dogmatic approach of the Eastern Church to the mysteries of G-d and yet impressed by the careful distinctivity of the Latin church (the type of process that seeks to "rightly divide" the Word.) However, I think that traditional Hebraic (and thus orthodox Christian) epistemology combines the two, and allows both intense halachic discussion and the theological mystery to survive side-by-side.

When I say Greek I mean philisophically like Plato and the culture that Alexander the Great put in place (which most of if survives today and was the precurser to "Latin thought"), that kind of Western thinking is almost 180 degree's from Eastern Hebrew thought..........but I digress..........

You are right however that the Eastern church is more "Eastern" than say the RCC or Reformation denominations..........they are way more Eastern than American based theologies.

 

[HaNotsri]

I can't quite explain my belief in regards to it, except like this: When I refer to God in respect to the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, I refer to Him using the pronoun "Him" not "Them." However, I still recognize the uniqueness in the Trinity.

 

[stone]

Matthew 12:46-50 46 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him. 47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. 48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? 49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! 50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

 

[MattyJames]

Greetings Haya,

I will speak from what I have been taught by my beloved Father (earthly) as to the nature of the God Head. I have little problem with the following definition, so naturally, I adopt it as my own as well.

The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are 3 different entities. Just as you and I are. The Father has begotten the son (which is another topic altogether), and created the Holy Spirit.

The Father and Son are the God Head. The Holy Spirit is the Servant.

The Holy Spirit is a plural word, encompassing the angelic realm. Much like army. Singular, but plural.

We are to worship the Father and Son, but not the Holy Spirit. Never the less we are in subjection to the Holy Spirit, because he carries the power of the King. Like a messenger, so is he.

What shall I say?:

The kingdom of Heaven is likened unto a King (Father), that begot a Son (Messiah), and had a faithfull general (Holy Spirit).

The King went to war, giving all power and authority to the General, to conqure all lands and dominions who stand in oposition to the King. He gives command of this errand to His Son, who in turns commands the General. Every Soldier (angels) carries with him the word of the King. With that word is the power to give life, and to destroy it, to kill, or to save.

So what about the oneness of God?

Well we know that the Elohim was from the begining, even before 'Shema' was given. But we have again Yeshua saying that He and the Father are one? One in what? One in Mind? Yes! One in Will? Yes! One in intent? Yes!

Lets put this same analogy to a more commen even in ones life...Marriage. And the twain shall be one Flesh. Now are they one in the strict form as one? Well of course not! They are still individuals, with distinct roles to play, but they are one! One in mind, spirit and intent.

Of course, they do become 'one', when the fruit of their love is made manifest...'one, two, three...but I only have two knees!!'

But lets stay on the topic.

In conclusion. The God head consists of three individuals, with three distinct roles, but are one in 'Spirit', mind, intent, will, pourpose etc.

This is my opinion. I hope it helps.

regards,

Matt James

 

[HayaLovesYeshua]

Greetings Haya,

I will speak from what I have been taught by my beloved Father (earthly) as to the nature of the God Head. I have little problem with the following definition, so naturally, I adopt it as my own as well.

The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are 3 different entities. Just as you and I are. The Father has begotten the son (which is another topic altogether), and created the Holy Spirit.

The Father and Son are the God Head. The Holy Spirit is the Servant.

The Holy Spirit is a plural word, encompassing the angelic realm. Much like army. Singular, but plural.

We are to worship the Father and Son, but not the Holy Spirit. Never the less we are in subjection to the Holy Spirit, because he carries the power of the King. Like a messenger, so is he.

What shall I say?:

The kingdom of Heaven is likened unto a King (Father), that begot a Son (Messiah), and had a faithfull general (Holy Spirit).

The King went to war, giving all power and authority to the General, to conqure all lands and dominions who stand in oposition to the King. He gives command of this errand to His Son, who in turns commands the General. Every Soldier (angels) carries with him the word of the King. With that word is the power to give life, and to destroy it, to kill, or to save.

So what about the oneness of God?

Well we know that the Elohim was from the begining, even before 'Shema' was given. But we have again Yeshua saying that He and the Father are one? One in what? One in Mind? Yes! One in Will? Yes! One in intent? Yes!

Lets put this same analogy to a more commen even in ones life...Marriage. And the twain shall be one Flesh. Now are they one in the strict form as one? Well of course not! They are still individuals, with distinct roles to play, but they are one! One in mind, spirit and intent.

Of course, they do become 'one', when the fruit of their love is made manifest...'one, two, three...but I only have two knees!!'

But lets stay on the topic.

In conclusion. The God head consists of three individuals, with three distinct roles, but are one in 'Spirit', mind, intent, will, pourpose etc.

This is my opinion. I hope it helps.

regards,

Matt James

Thank you dear brother,
Well, I asked it because I disscused\argued [the zeal the zeal....] with some people about that, they don't wanna read\ hear it!! they said it's pagan [Oy vey! 3 gods!]..but it isn't!!
About the marrige, that's right! they don't become one man...[they aren't a monster or something..]. one flesh in their mind, spirit and intent..that's right and I agree with you ,Matt.
Well, It's a good expalnation,I hope one day God will open their eyes..sooner or later they will underststand..
Oh we can see that on the Revalation that the Father sits on his chair [I don't know how to say it in English,please forgive me...] and in his right side the lamb sits, Yeshua sits..oh, Yeshua said too that he'll sit near the Father...so....
Thanks once again for your answer!!
P.s what do you think about people that praying to the Holy Spirit?
Be blessed and have a blessed Shabbat,
Haya.

 

[MattyJames]

Thank you dear brother,
Well, I asked it because I disscused\argued [the zeal the zeal....] with some people about that, they don't wanna read\ hear it!! they said it's pagan [Oy vey! 3 gods!]..but it isn't!!
About the marrige, that's right! they don't become one man...[they aren't a monster or something..]. one flesh in their mind, spirit and intent..that's right and I agree with you ,Matt.
Well, It's a good expalnation,I hope one day God will open their eyes..sooner or later they will underststand..
Oh we can see that on the Revalation that the Father sits on his chair [I don't know how to say it in English,please forgive me...] and in his right side the lamb sits, Yeshua sits..oh, Yeshua said too that he'll sit near the Father...so....
Thanks once again for your answer!!
P.s what do you think about people that praying to the Holy Spirit?
Be blessed and have a blessed Shabbat,
Haya.

Thanks Haya,

to answer your question:

I do not believe that we should pray, worship sing to etc. the Holy Spirit. I believe that the HS is a Ministering angel, and we have the advice from Paul that states:

[BIBLE]Col 2:18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshiping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, [/BIBLE]

I do believe though, that we should be subject to the angels, as lower servants, subject to a higher master.

[BIBLE]
Exo 23:20 Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. Exo 23:21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.
[/BIBLE]

Just my thoughts. BTW...your english is almost better than mine! lol

Shabbat Shalom to you Haya!

Matt James