Guys i need your view points.

[Antman_05]

Wilo and i have been dabteing for a lil while over this. and today he sent me this.

Perseverance of the Saints
Those scipture which are bold, and italic are what Calvinist use to support their stand point.

"And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from doing them good; but I will put My fear in their hearts so that they will not depart from Me." Jer 32:40
This passage of scripture is talking to the nation of Judah, which at the time was in Babylonian captivity and in no way related to the doctrine of salvation now held today.

"“What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying? And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray. Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish." Matt 18:12-14
This verse if read in context shows Jesus' mission statment for coming to earth, as in the verse prior (v.11) Jesus just said He had come to seek and save the lost. He then proceded to give an illustration of what He had come to do.
To use this verse to support Persevrance of the Saints, means that then all men are lost, and that must mean by the same reasoning, all men will be saved.

"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life." John 5:24
So true, whoever believes in Jesus' words, and hears then will be saved. But again this verse doesn't support once saved always saved, as people can choose what to believe and what not to believe, people can choose to do as the Word says, or not to do as the Word says.
Joh 6:40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes on Him should have everlasting life. And I will raise him up at the last day.
It is the Will of God that people who see the Son will be saved, but sadly that just isn't the case, alot of people saw Jesus on His earthly ministry, and not all of them were saved, in fact some of them killed Him, then went on to kill the Christians.

"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand." John 10:27-29
Correct, no one will snatch them from Christ's hand, but what about us choosing to leave it, and being led astray by our own desires, like it says in James.

"Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified." Rom 8:30
He was justified all those who have repented and put faith in Christ, there is no argument, but this verse doesn't say that people won't lose salvation, but rather it is showing what happens at the point of salvation.

"...so that you come short in no gift, eagerly waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ, who will also confirm you to the end, that you may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord." 1 Cor 1:7-9

God is faithful to hold us to the end, but we can choose to walk away. We can choose to leave the grace of God. Doesn't mean God still has room for us, but it means we choose to break relationship with God, just like Adam did in Genesis.

"No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it." 1 Cor 10:13

This verse has nothing to do with salvation, but rather it is telling us how to overcome temptation, and that escape is through Christ.

"In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory." Eph 1:13-14
Yes, at the point of salvation we are given the seal of the Holy Spirit saying we belong to God. But can we choose to walk away? This verse doesn't show that salvation is not something you can lose.

"And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption." Eph 4:30
Not talking about salvation but rather grieving the Holy Spirit.

"Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. He who calls you is faithful, who also will do it." 1 Thess 5:23,24
Talking about santification and not about losing salvation, again another weak scripture used to back up once saved always saved.

"And the Lord will deliver me from every evil work and preserve me for His heavenly kingdom. To Him be glory forever and ever. Amen!" 2 Tim 4:18
Yes, God will preserve from evil, but is He going to preserve us from ourselves? Our own desires is what leads us into sin. So again this verse doesn't support OSAS.

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." 1 Peter 1:3-5
All these conclusions are based on the assumption that man cannot walk away from God. So again this does not supply concrete evidence for OSAS.

"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us." 1 John 2:19

This verse is talking about those in the church, not salvation.

"For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world— our faith...And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God....And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life." 1 John 5:4, 11-13,20
Again this is based on man not having the ability to walk away from Christ. Still no solid evidence for OSAS

"To those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ" Jude 1
Yes, they are preserved in Jesus Christ, but the question is can we walk out of Jesus Christ?

"Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, And to present you faultless Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy...Be glory and majesty,Dominion and power,Both now and forever." Jude 24,25
Talking about santification
*****
No solid proof has been given to support the OSAS viewpoint.
Now lets look at a couple scripture in context:
Heb 3:12 Take heed, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
1) Brothers: it is refering to those in Christ Jesus.
2) Evil heart: It says Christians can have an evil heart
3) Depart from the Living God: It is a result of sin that people depart from the Living God, but how can they leave Him unless they first knew Him?

Lets look at James 5:19-20 (KJV):

Jam 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
Jam 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

Point 1: The Apostle James here is talking to the church, you can tell they are apart of the family of Christ by the use of the word Brethen.

Point 2: It talks about erring (walking away from) the truth, now the question gets asked what is the truth? John 14:6, Jesus says He is the truth, and it is the same greek word used here. So how can one walk away from the truth (Jesus) if they were never in the truth? It suggests a losing of salvation.

Point 3: It says 'let one convert him' Clearly suggesting that someone lost their salvation and they need to convert back.

Point 4: It says in verse 20 'That he that converts the sinner saves his soul from death' this is tied to verse 19, so a sinner (the one who was in truth) will die if he does not convert back. So it shows that he is now on a path to hell.

so i would like to hear you views on it.

 

[Willo]

You forgot the conversation on MSN

 

[Antman_05]

Do you want me to post that ??

 

[Willo]

na, its right it is all over the place, and would be a bit hard to follow for people reading online.

Plus I am not allowed to debate in here, or defend my view point

 

[CoffeeSwirls]

I believe we are grafted into the promises made to Israel, so much of this is contrary to my reading of scripture.

So true, whoever believes in Jesus' words, and hears then will be saved.

Does belief come from within us or is it a gift that is granted from God? By whose authority do we believe? If this power comes from a source greater than ours, how could we leave? And if one has left, did they truly believe in the power of God to save them or in their power to clutch on to what they were told? If it is their own power unto salvation, is it legitimate? Are they making idols of their own belief?

This verse is talking about those in the church, not salvation.

What is the church if it is not a body of believers? Is it a social club or a place to get free pastries every Sunday morning?

now the question gets asked what is the truth?

John 17:17 (ESV)
Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth.

I ask questions to help you think this through, which is my common . OSAS which follows salvation based on the will of man is useless. I labored under these thoughts for 30 years and was terrified most of the time. It wasn't until I looked to Christ as the originator and sustainer of my salvation that I felt at peace. It wasn't until I read this truth for myself that the peace was extended to me. Biblibal truth trumps the skilled debator every time.

"On Christ the solid rock I stand, all other ground is sinking sand."

 

[Jon_]

This passage of scripture is talking to the nation of Judah, which at the time was in Babylonian captivity and in no way related to the doctrine of salvation now held today.

Sola Scriptura leads us to believe otherwise.

Jeremiah 32:40 is absolutely applicable to Christians. God cannot deny his promises, he cannot back out of them, nor would he so desire. Jer. 32:40 is applicable to all the elect. Israel, Judah, all the states and tribes of Israel were representive of the elect whom Jesus saved. Christ's salvation was not only for the Jews, but for the Gentiles, also. You do realize that denying the applicability of this verse to the Gentiles, denies the applicability of Christ's sacrifice to us as well, don't you?

This verse if read in context shows Jesus' mission statment for coming to earth, as in the verse prior (v.11) Jesus just said He had come to seek and save the lost. He then proceded to give an illustration of what He had come to do. To use this verse to support Persevrance of the Saints, means that then all men are lost, and that must mean by the same reasoning, all men will be saved.

Non sequitur.

Your conclusion is faulty because your premises are faulty. The sheep in Christ's parable are the elect, not all men. Your interpretation only creates problems for both viewpoints. It essentially affirms the heresy of universalism.

So true, whoever believes in Jesus' words, and hears then will be saved. But again this verse doesn't support once saved always saved, as people can choose what to believe and what not to believe, people can choose to do as the Word says, or not to do as the Word says.

Faith is a gift of God, not a work of man:

(Eph. 2:8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:


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Once believing, men cannot stop believing unless God wills that they stop believing, which would be an act of unrighteousness, and thus impossible of God.

It is the Will of God that people who see the Son will be saved, but sadly that just isn't the case, alot of people saw Jesus on His earthly ministry, and not all of them were saved, in fact some of them killed Him, then went on to kill the Christians.

They were not elect. Those that Christ did atone for, believed. Those who were appointed to eternal life:

(Acts 13:48) And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.



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Correct, no one will snatch them from Christ's hand, but what about us choosing to leave it, and being led astray by our own desires, like it says in James.

Take it in context with what Paul wrote:

(Rom. 8:38) For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39) Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.



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You can't "give it back." You can't choose to leave God's hand. He has you enclosed completely in it. Moreover, you didn't even choose to be there in the first place:

(Ps. 65:4) Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple.



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God is faithful to hold us to the end, but we can choose to walk away. We can choose to leave the grace of God. Doesn't mean God still has room for us, but it means we choose to break relationship with God, just like Adam did in Genesis.

I hear your argument, but I see no proof. Your words are like wind without evidence of the Spirit.

This verse has nothing to do with salvation, but rather it is telling us how to overcome temptation, and that escape is through Christ.

Agreed.

Yes, at the point of salvation we are given the seal of the Holy Spirit saying we belong to God. But can we choose to walk away? This verse doesn't show that salvation is not something you can lose.

This verse absolutely talks about assured salvation. Simply saying that it does not does not mean it does not. You have not even offered an alternative interpretation. Should we simply ignore this verse, so that it would not conflict with your doctrine?

Not talking about salvation but rather grieving the Holy Spirit.

The preposition "by" introduces the subject of the clause: the Holy Spirit. The statement "by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption," is an accurate description of the subject. The verse is abouting grieving the subject, who sealed us for the day of redemption. You cannot deny this description. Shall we remove this portion of the verse? What meaning does it have aside from assuring salvation? Again, you have not even offered a counter-argument. All you did was flatly deny any application.

Talking about santification and not about losing salvation, again another weak scripture used to back up once saved always saved.

The Scripture is weak is it? So you gauge the strength of Scripture based on its applicability to your own doctrine? I rebuke you in the name of Christ for your offense against the Spirit.



Of course this Scripture talks about the assurance of salvation. Read v. 24 again:

(1 Thess. 5:24) Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.



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Faithful is [the Father] that calleth you. Even if we act unfaithfully, the Father remains faithful, by his Spirit he will preserve us, by his Son he will justify us.

Yes, God will preserve from evil, but is He going to preserve us from ourselves? Our own desires is what leads us into sin. So again this verse doesn't support OSAS.

You've contradicted yourself. You agree that God will preserve us from evil, but deny he will preserve us from ourselves. You then proceed to say it is our own evil desires that entice us to sin. Your argument is highly fallacious.

As long as we live with our fleshly bodies, we will live with a sinful nature. We cannot escape that. God knows this, and preserves us despite our flaws.

All these conclusions are based on the assumption that man cannot walk away from God. So again this does not supply concrete evidence for OSAS.

And all your conclusions are based upon the assumption that man can walk away from God. You are making fallacious argument after fallacious argument. Your points are nearly moot! You are arguing a position which you have supported with almost no evidence. You are simply flatly denying the applicability of Scripture and doing violence against the Spirit. So long as you continue to grieve the Spirit with your deceptive interpretations, you will never find concrete evidence of OSAS. That is a fault of your own, not a fault of Scripture.

This verse is talking about those in the church, not salvation.

Again, rife with fallacy, misinterpretation, and contradiction. John is addressing the beloved here, which is a synonym used for the elect, which are the chosen of Christ. By saying that the verse applies to the church and not salvation is the same as saying that wherever the Bible says "beloved" it doesn't mean believers, just people who go to church. That means that there are a lot of non-believers who will be redeemed.

Again this is based on man not having the ability to walk away from Christ. Still no solid evidence for OSAS

And still no counter-argument, evidence of Responsible-Grace, or anything approaching a meaningful reply. Arguing with you is like arguing with a wall.

Yes, they are preserved in Jesus Christ, but the question is can we walk out of Jesus Christ?

Can your arm walk off? Can your eye dislodge itself from its socket? Can your ear tear itself from your skull? No. How much more can we not leave the body of Christ once assimilated into it. The answer to your question is no.

Talking about santification

Sanctification and justification. But I'll agree that it's applicability to OSAS is not very strong.

No solid proof has been given to support the OSAS viewpoint.

Plenty of solid proof has been given. The spirit of your error has quenched the Spirit, though.

Now lets look at a couple scripture in context:
Heb 3:12 Take heed, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
1) Brothers: it is refering to those in Christ Jesus.
2) Evil heart: It says Christians can have an evil heart
3) Depart from the Living God: It is a result of sin that people depart from the Living God, but how can they leave Him unless they first knew Him?

1) Yep.
2) We do. And will until we die. Our flesh is evil (Rom. 7:24)


3) Does not indicate a loss of salvation. It does indicate a turning away from God, a turning from the truth, but this is not condemned to apostasy. Read this in context with vv. 13-14:

But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;



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Exhort one another daily. Do not be hardened through sin. Hold your confidence until the end. Those who believe will be preserved by God until the end. We should hold onto that confidence, knowing that God shall keep us.


To the latter portion of your question, "but how can they leave Him unless they first knew Him?" this is simply answered in Romans 1:20. All men are born with innate knowledge of their Creator and willing turn away from him.

Lets look at James 5:19-20 (KJV):

Jam 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
Jam 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

Point 1: The Apostle James here is talking to the church, you can tell they are apart of the family of Christ by the use of the word Brethen.

Point 2: It talks about erring (walking away from) the truth, now the question gets asked what is the truth? John 14:6, Jesus says He is the truth, and it is the same greek word used here. So how can one walk away from the truth (Jesus) if they were never in the truth? It suggests a losing of salvation.

Point 3: It says 'let one convert him' Clearly suggesting that someone lost their salvation and they need to convert back.

Point 4: It says in verse 20 'That he that converts the sinner saves his soul from death' this is tied to verse 19, so a sinner (the one who was in truth) will die if he does not convert back. So it shows that he is now on a path to hell.

The Bible is rich with sin-death symbolism. James is here equating death to sin to show the profit of Christian reproof. He is saying that, seeing sin is death-worthy (by one transgression all have been condemned), how much should we turn each other away from sin. By converting each other from sin, we are, by association, bringing them back to life.

Now, do you really think that man has the capability of saving other men from death? Is it by righteous works that we are justified before God? Of course not. This illustration shows the benefit of Christian reproach between brothers.

Does a brother truly cover a multitude of sins with his conversion? If so, then he has done something meritorious, something that God should be obligated to honor. No, he has done nothing of merit, nothing deserving of anything. Instead, what is meant is that by turning a brother away from his sin, you will turn him back before he will. The multitude of sins covered are those that he may have committed before being reproached.

 

[Jon_]

I was transferring some of my paper notes over to the computer, when I came across this Scripture:

(Ps. 37:23-24) The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD: and he delighteth in his way. 24) Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down: for the LORD upholdeth him with his hand.
​

I believe that addresses the issue quite definitively.

 

[frumanchu]

"And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from doing them good; but I will put My fear in their hearts so that they will not depart from Me." Jer 32:40

This passage of scripture is talking to the nation of Judah, which at the time was in Babylonian captivity and in no way related to the doctrine of salvation now held today.

There are several reasons why this answer is inadequate.

First of all, what it basically says is that there's no dilineation between when God can and cannot accomplish His will within a people in preserving them. There are generally two arguments against the doctrine of perseverance: that God is unable to preserve them, or that God is unwilling to preserve them.

This verse quite clearly eradicates the first as God quite clearly states that He will put His fear in their hearts so that they will not depart. If He is capable of acting in such a manner to the Jews in this case, He is clearly capable of acting in such a manner with anyone.

So the question becomes whether or not God is ultimately willing to do so. At which point it must be asked, "Why would God not will to preserve those who are His in their faith if He is able to do so?" There is an abundance of Scripture that answers this question. The only response of disagreement that ever comes back is that God wants them to persevere "of their own free will." You will find that ultimately leads to precisely the extreme we are told they never hold: that man's free will is valued above anything else (even his own salvation and God's sovereign purpose).

"“What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying? And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray. Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish." Matt 18:12-14
This verse if read in context shows Jesus' mission statment for coming to earth, as in the verse prior (v.11) Jesus just said He had come to seek and save the lost. He then proceded to give an illustration of what He had come to do.
To use this verse to support Persevrance of the Saints, means that then all men are lost, and that must mean by the same reasoning, all men will be saved.

That presumes that Jesus' statement that He was there to "seek and save the lost" meant that He was there to seek and save ALL the lost (as in every man). Operating from that presumption one need only go back to Jer 32 and ask, "If it's God's will that no sinner should perish (Matt 18) and God is able to put His fear in men's hearts so they do not depart from Him (Jer 32) then why is it that this will is not accomplished?"

"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life." John 5:24
So true, whoever believes in Jesus' words, and hears then will be saved. But again this verse doesn't support once saved always saved, as people can choose what to believe and what not to believe, people can choose to do as the Word says, or not to do as the Word says.

And again, why is it that God's purposes are frustrated if He is indeed able to preserve men?

As an aside, I would be interested to know what it is that leads one person to "choose to persevere" while another does not.

Joh 6:40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes on Him should have everlasting life. And I will raise him up at the last day.
It is the Will of God that people who see the Son will be saved, but sadly that just isn't the case, alot of people saw Jesus on His earthly ministry, and not all of them were saved, in fact some of them killed Him, then went on to kill the Christians.

Nope. He has misstated the verse in that very first statement. It does not say that it is the will of the Father that everyone who sees the Son believes and has everlasting life...it says it is the will of the Father that everyone who sees AND believes should have everlasting life. The will of the Father with respect to eternal life is focused solely on those who both see and believe. This doesn't touch on the issue of why or how those who believe come to that belief.

"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand." John 10:27-29
Correct, no one will snatch them from Christ's hand, but what about us choosing to leave it, and being led astray by our own desires, like it says in James.

I always love this answer...it is one of the clearest cases you'll ever see of sophistry employed to support this position. The clear point of the verse is that believers are secure and that the temptations of the world, the flesh and the devil will never be able to wrestle us from the strong grasp of our Father...and yet that is exactly the means by which we would "choose to leave."

No solid proof has been given to support the OSAS viewpoint.
Now lets look at a couple scripture in context:
Heb 3:12 Take heed, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
1) Brothers: it is refering to those in Christ Jesus.
2) Evil heart: It says Christians can have an evil heart
3) Depart from the Living God: It is a result of sin that people depart from the Living God, but how can they leave Him unless they first knew Him?

1) Not necessarily. The author refers to them by their confession, which is the hallmark of the covenant community. Are not men in covenant Israel referred to as brothers even though "they are not all Israel who are called Israel?"
2) Presumes upon #1, which is unsound
3) Departure from the covenant community never necessitates that those who depart were saved (see his explanation on 1 John 2:19 above)

Lets look at James 5:19-20 (KJV):

Jam 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
Jam 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

Point 1: The Apostle James here is talking to the church, you can tell they are apart of the family of Christ by the use of the word Brethen.

Point 2: It talks about erring (walking away from) the truth, now the question gets asked what is the truth? John 14:6, Jesus says He is the truth, and it is the same greek word used here. So how can one walk away from the truth (Jesus) if they were never in the truth? It suggests a losing of salvation.

Point 3: It says 'let one convert him' Clearly suggesting that someone lost their salvation and they need to convert back.

Point 4: It says in verse 20 'That he that converts the sinner saves his soul from death' this is tied to verse 19, so a sinner (the one who was in truth) will die if he does not convert back. So it shows that he is now on a path to hell.

so i would like to hear you views on it.

1) Yes, he is talking to the church...the covenant community. Unless we are going to argue that all members of the visible church are saved, or that James knows the state of every man's heart in that church and they all just happen to be true believers to a man, then this is a moot point.

2) That is a very shaky argument at best, but even so given that it is the covenant community that James is speaking to, and that any who would depart from the covenant community are departing from the truth, it is still most definitely in line with the Reformed understanding.

3) Relies on previous assumptions

4) ditto'

There is a pretty clear pattern throughout Scripture. We are told that we are sealed by the Holy Spirit and given an earnest guarantee of our salvation (Eph 1:13-14)...we are told that He is able to keep us from stumbling and to present us blameless before the presence of His glory (Jude 24)...we are told that He is at work within us both to will and to do (Phil 2:13)...we are told that He is able to preserve us and deliver us from every evil work (2 Tim 4:18)...we are told that those He justified will be glorified (Rom 8:30)...we are told He will confirm us to the end (1 Cor 1:8)...we are told we are sealed for the day of redemption (Eph 4:30)...we are told we are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation (1 Pet 1:5)...we are told that whatever is born of God overcomes the world (1 John 5:4)...we are told it is God who give the increase (1 Cor 3:6)...we are told we are preserved in Jesus Christ (Jude 1)...we are told He is faithful to those He calls and will preserve them spirit, soul and body (1 Thess 5:23-24)...we are told none shall snatch His sheep out of His hand (John 10:28)...we are told He is able to put His fear in our hearts so that we will not depart from Him (Jer 32:40).

The misunderstanding that there is a sudden shift between Malachi and Matthew in the entire manner in which God deals with man, from covenant people in the Old Testament to individuals in the New Testament, is a major fault behind the understanding of those who insist salvation can be had and then lost.

 

[Jon_]

The misunderstanding that there is a sudden shift between Malachi and Matthew in the entire manner in which God deals with man, from covenant people in the Old Testament to individuals in the New Testament, is a major fault behind the understanding of those who insist salvation can be had and then lost.

Indeed. Calvinism applies to both New Testament and Old Testament. All of the tenets, principles, and points are as applicable to Jews as Gentiles. It is the Arminian perspective that struggles to integrate the two covenants.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[Croooz]

Indeed. Calvinism applies to both New Testament and Old Testament. All of the tenets, principles, and points are as applicable to Jews as Gentiles. It is the Arminian perspective that struggles to integrate the two covenants.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

I can clearly remember and not too long ago when I would say "that is the G-d of the OT but we are under the new covenant..." Which basically has G-d changing and His word in the OT is only good for those in the OT times. I would have a tough time using OT scriptures because of how they were just not applicable to us...because we are NT saints. In hindsight I sounded like an idiot.

A free-will Christianity just falls apart when closely examined.

 

[Jon_]

I can clearly remember and not too long ago when I would say "that is the G-d of the OT but we are under the new covenant..." Which basically has G-d changing and His word in the OT is only good for those in the OT times. I would have a tough time using OT scriptures because of how they were just not applicable to us...because we are NT saints. In hindsight I sounded like an idiot.

A free-will Christianity just falls apart when closely examined.

I can fully echo your exact sentiments, brother. I remember sitting through Nazarene services wondering why God was so different with the Israelites before Christ than he is with all after Christ. I couldn't understand why God chose Israel and preserved them, but we had to choose Christ to be saved. It seemed like God kept changing his mind, or changing the rules. And I didn't for a second understand how the sacrificial system of the Israelites saved them, whereas Christ saved us.

I think a lot of this has to do with the incredibly poor lack of attention that modern churches pay to doctrine, though. The Arminians have answers to these issues, but I never heard any of them. All our pastor would do is preach fire and brimstone day in and day out. He used to hold services over indefinitely until people came down to the alter, and it was always the same people down at the alter. He'd constantly say idiotic things like, "We're not leaving until someone gets saved!" Ugh, what an horrible church that was.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon