Guys, having some John 6:37-40 struggles.

Ann77

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I'm very sympathetic to Lutheranism, but this John 6:37-40 passage is a killer. It doesn't make sense to me if I am to hold to universal/unlimited atonement and monergistic salvation. It says no man can come to Him unless the Father grants it and the Son will lose none that come. You believe He desires the world to be saved and yet all are not saved, there is an elect. As well as believing the once regenerate can be lost. Does God not equally sustain the regenerate in the same way? I know some human reasoning is flawed, although, it seems like God is trying to tell us something about salvation through this passage--otherwise God wouldn't include this salvation passage as Scripture. In light of this, is there a Biblical way to reconcile this passage with Lutheran doctrine?
 
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spiritualchristian7

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(copy & paste)
DO YOU THINK YOU ARE GOING TO HEAVEN? ...IF SO, WHY?
SALVATION IS NOT EARNED THROUGH PERSONAL MERIT BUT IS A FREE GIFT FROM JESUS…Rom_10:3 For they don’t understand that Christ has died to make them right with God. Instead they are trying to make themselves good enough to gain God’s favor by keeping the laws and customs, but that is not God’s way of salvation. Ephesians 2:8-9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.
EVERYONE HAS SINNED AND EVERYONE NEEDS JESUS…Romans 3:23 For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
JESUS IS THE ONLY SAVIOR…John 1:29 Behold, the Lamb of God (Jesus), which taketh away the sin of the world. Mark 10:45 (Jesus came) to give his life a ransom for many. John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
JESUS PAID FOR ALL OUR SINS ON THE CROSS AND WAS RAISED FROM THE DEAD…1 Corinthians 15: 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures
SIMPLY BELIEVE ON JESUS AND ETERNAL LIFE IN HEAVEN IS PROMISED AND GUARANTEED…John 11:25-26 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? Acts 16:30-31 Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved-John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. Rom. 8: 38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come.39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
 
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Gifts From Above

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I'm very sympathetic to Lutheranism, but this John 6:37-40 passage is a killer. It doesn't make sense to me if I am to hold to universal/unlimited atonement and monergistic salvation. It says no man can come to Him unless the Father grants it and the Son will lose none that come. You believe He desires the world to be saved and yet all are not saved, there is an elect. As well as believing the once regenerate can be lost. Does God not equally sustain the regenerate in the same way? I know some human reasoning is flawed, although, it seems like God is trying to tell us something about salvation through this passage--otherwise God wouldn't include this salvation passage as Scripture. In light of this, is there a Biblical way to reconcile this passage with Lutheran doctrine?

Hi Ann77, I am Lutheran but even though I attend a Lutheran Church I am very sympathetic towards Calvinism. I tend to believe in the TULIP so for me this passage can be easily understood.
 
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Ann77

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You may find this link interesting:

TULIP with Scriptures
Thank you. I actually come from a Reformed background. I'm concerned that Perseverance of the Saints and Evanescent Grace might be true because of this chapter, and so I was hoping to get a clear Lutheran take on John 6.
 
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GreekOrthodox

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LCMS Brief Statement of Belief (1932)

To be sure, it is necessary to observe the Scriptural distinction between the election of grace and the universal will of grace. This universal gracious will of God embraces all men; the election of grace, however, does not embrace all, but only a definite number, whom "God hath from the beginning chosen to salvation," 2 Thess. 2:13, the "remnant," the "seed" which "the Lord left," Rom. 9:27- 29, the "election," Rom. 11:7; and while the universal will of grace is frustrated in the case of most men, Matt. 22:14; Luke 7:30, the election of grace attains its end with all whom it embraces, Rom. 8:28-30. Scripture, however, while distinguishing between the universal will of grace and the election of grace, does not place the two in opposition to each other. On the contrary, it teaches that the grace dealing with those who are lost is altogether earnest and fully efficacious for conversion. Blind reason indeed declares these two truths to be contradictory; but we impose silence on our reason. The seeming disharmony will disappear in the light of heaven, 1 Cor. 13:12.

TL;DR God chooses everyone to be saved but we can resist.

Faith Lutheran Church: Corning, NY > Lutheran vs. Reformed
 
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Ann77

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LCMS Brief Statement of Belief (1932)

To be sure, it is necessary to observe the Scriptural distinction between the election of grace and the universal will of grace. This universal gracious will of God embraces all men; the election of grace, however, does not embrace all, but only a definite number, whom "God hath from the beginning chosen to salvation," 2 Thess. 2:13, the "remnant," the "seed" which "the Lord left," Rom. 9:27- 29, the "election," Rom. 11:7; and while the universal will of grace is frustrated in the case of most men, Matt. 22:14; Luke 7:30, the election of grace attains its end with all whom it embraces, Rom. 8:28-30. Scripture, however, while distinguishing between the universal will of grace and the election of grace, does not place the two in opposition to each other. On the contrary, it teaches that the grace dealing with those who are lost is altogether earnest and fully efficacious for conversion. Blind reason indeed declares these two truths to be contradictory; but we impose silence on our reason. The seeming disharmony will disappear in the light of heaven, 1 Cor. 13:12.

TL;DR God chooses everyone to be saved but we can resist.

Faith Lutheran Church: Corning, NY > Lutheran vs. Reformed
Thank you. So what I'm getting out of this, salvation is dependant on how resistant you are and how soft your heart is(?) If so, this isn't making much sense in light of Ezekiel 36:26.
 
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hedrick

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Thank you. So what I'm getting out of this, salvation is dependant on how resistant you are and how soft your heart is(?) If so, this isn't making much sense in light of Ezekiel 36:26.
I don’t think that’s quite what the statement says. It says that God chooses some to save, out of his own grace and not dependent upon things like how resistant we are. Given God's desire for all to be saved, we simply don't know why some are not.

This is consistent with my reading of the later Luther.

We need some actual LCMS participation in this discussion.
 
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GreekOrthodox

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From the Lutheran POV, we are always resisting. "We believe, therefore, that a person’s conversion is entirely the work of God’s grace. Rejection of the gospel is, however, entirely the unbeliever’s own fault (Matthew 23:37)."

I was raised LCMS but I've been Orthodox for 20 years so I'm having to dig around in my memory (and Google). The Lutheran position is that salvation cannot be reasoned out. Luther in fact once stated, “Reason is a harlot, the greatest enemy that faith has; it never comes to the aid of spiritual things, but more frequently than not struggles against the divine Word, treating with contempt all that emanates from God.” Now Luther was not speaking of using reason and logic in human dealings but strictly when it comes to salvation. He recognized that he was dealing with a paradox. In fact, that's the name of this forum, Theologia Crusis, the Theology of the Cross.

Even in Eastern Theology this paradox can be seen in the Hours of Great Friday

A dread and marvelous mystery we see come to pass this day.
He whom none may touch is seized;
He who looses Adam from the curse is bound.
He who tries the hearts and inner thoughts of man is unjustly brought to trial.
He who closed the abyss is shut in prison.
He before whom the powers of heaven stand with trembling, stands before Pilate;
the Creator is struck by the hand of His creature.
He who comes to judge the living and the dead is condemned to the Cross;
the Destroyer of hell is enclosed in a tomb.
O Thou who dost endure all these things in Thy tender love, who hast saved all men from the curse, O long-suffering Lord, glory to Thee.
 
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Daniel9v9

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Hey Ann! Very simply, this is a passage that is intended to show us that we cannot merit salvation, and it serves for our comfort, that even though we sin and stumble in our faith, God will never abandon us. Just as God sustained His people with bread in the desert, He now sustains us with the true bread, which is Christ.

The Lutheran Church certainly believe in and confess this passage, as we do with all of Holy Scriptures; it is consistent with our doctrine.

I can add that, while John 6 is perhaps not directly Eucharistic, it's hard not to read it Eucharistically at least indirectly, namely, that Christ does offer His body and blood to us continuously, as His pledge for us, for our comfort.

Whenever we find Scriptural passages that talk about election, we should always believe it and take it at face value, and also rejoice in it, knowing that it's always written for our comfort. However, to demonstrate how this passage is not for the unrepentant, we can, for example, go to Revelation 3, where Jesus threatens to spit out those who are neither hot nor cold (which does not mean salvation by works, but a lack of faith; disbelief, rebellion, and indifference).

One more thing worth pointing out in John 6 is that this is a word that is often misunderstood, rejected, and disbelieved. We can see this in the text itself in the verses below. But what we want to do is trust Christ's words with simple and childlike faith. God saves sinners; He saves us, sanctifies us, and will restore us fully in the resurrection. This is all good news.

The peace of Christ to you +
 
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BNR32FAN

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LCMS Brief Statement of Belief (1932)

To be sure, it is necessary to observe the Scriptural distinction between the election of grace and the universal will of grace. This universal gracious will of God embraces all men; the election of grace, however, does not embrace all, but only a definite number, whom "God hath from the beginning chosen to salvation," 2 Thess. 2:13, the "remnant," the "seed" which "the Lord left," Rom. 9:27- 29, the "election," Rom. 11:7; and while the universal will of grace is frustrated in the case of most men, Matt. 22:14; Luke 7:30, the election of grace attains its end with all whom it embraces, Rom. 8:28-30. Scripture, however, while distinguishing between the universal will of grace and the election of grace, does not place the two in opposition to each other. On the contrary, it teaches that the grace dealing with those who are lost is altogether earnest and fully efficacious for conversion. Blind reason indeed declares these two truths to be contradictory; but we impose silence on our reason. The seeming disharmony will disappear in the light of heaven, 1 Cor. 13:12.

TL;DR God chooses everyone to be saved but we can resist.

Faith Lutheran Church: Corning, NY > Lutheran vs. Reformed

Amen, I believe Romans 2:4-11 is also a great passage that supports this statement of faith.

“Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:4-11‬ ‭NASB
 
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Ann77

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Hello Pastor! @Daniel9v9 ;)

Thanks for your gracious response.

Ngl, I don't even want to study or think of taking the Lord's Supper because of the terrible warnings. I need to be certain before I take it.

The dilemma l'm having (you may be already aware of it) addresses a few separate and yet interwoven questions, namely (1) the apparent contradiction between God's universal saving will and His election, and (2) the relationship between our possibility of falling away and monergistic perseverance.

And the statement from John 6:37-40. It says no man can come to Him unless the Father grants it and the Son will lose none that come. If God truly had a desire to save all, it would make sense He would grant all salvation but that's not true. Lastly, if the Perseverance of the Saints is true because the statement in John 6, that would mean the doctrine of Evanescent Grace is real. God could be giving people a false faith and they wouldn't know it. This disturbs me and it makes me really question His love for His creation.
 
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Daniel9v9

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Hello Pastor! @Daniel9v9 ;)

Thanks for your gracious response.

Ngl, I don't even want to study or think of taking the Lord's Supper because of the terrible warnings. I need to be certain before I take it.

The dilemma l'm having (you may be already aware of it) addresses a few separate and yet interwoven questions, namely (1) the apparent contradiction between God's universal saving will and His election, and (2) the relationship between our possibility of falling away and monergistic perseverance.

And the statement from John 6:37-40. It says no man can come to Him unless the Father grants it and the Son will lose none that come. If God truly had a desire to save all, it would make sense He would grant all salvation but that's not true. Lastly, if the Perseverance of the Saints is true because the statement in John 6, that would mean the doctrine of Evanescent Grace is real. God could be giving people a false faith and they wouldn't know it. This disturbs me and it makes me really question His love for His creation.

Hey, no problem! :)

The short-ish answer

God is always good and true to His Word, even if we don’t quite understand the science of it. God’s ways and wisdom are infinitely higher than ours (1 Corinthians 1:25, Psalm 92:5), and we have to honour that. (1 Corinthians 13:12)

Both Election and Preservation have their own place and function in the theological framework that Scriptures give us, and they are to be taken as articles of faith (things that must be believed or trusted in) and for our comfort (they should not be abused in any way that causes anyone to doubt or reject God's grace). So, how we understand it and how we apply it, is just as important as the doctrine itself. Simply, Election and Preservation is a gift, but a gift can be abused.

Both God and His works are rightly apprehended through faith. We cannot scientifically discern the Trinity, for example, but yet, we believe it, because that's the truth that God has graciously revealed about Himself. In the same way, God's work is also apprehended through faith (Salvation: Romans 10:17; Creation: Hebrews 11:3). All miracles are apprehended through faith (trust) and not reason (which is corrupted by sin). So, God and His salvific work are both articles of faith. They are matters of trust. And even though we cannot understand it in full, we can understand it sufficiently. We don't understand everything about God, but we understand enough to recognise Him as our God and Saviour.

This is all to say, the doctrines, while they may have an outward appearance of being contradictory, they are most certainly not. They simply reveal to us that God is good and righteous at the same time, and that it's not one or the other.


Illustration

Suppose a drunk beggar, in his sleep, received a great gift from a kind and loving king. When he woke up to see the gift granted him, he can either trust that it is for him, or he can disbelieve that it is for him or believe the gift to be fake, and reject it.

This illustration is lacking, and I wouldn't press it too far, but what I want to show in very simple terms is that there is a way in which we can passively receive God's grace, unmerited, and at the same time be able to resist it. God grants salvation, from beginning to end (monergism), but we can abuse it (sin).


The long answer

God's Word is like medicine
It brings salvation to those who have faith, but it condemns those who in sin rejects God's grace. However, it's the same Word, and only one truth. So, just as penicillin may heal some, it can cause harm to others who are allergic to it. This is important to appreciate because how God's Word is applied to us is closely connected to the doctrine itself. That is, not only does the Bible present us with the doctrine of Election, but it always presents it as a doctrine of comfort. It is never applied to cause uncertainty or given to unrepentant people. Same with Preserverance; it is only applied to believers.

So, in a silly but somewhat easy to understand way, we can put Election and Perseverance in the pile of doctrines for believers, and we can put Damnation and warnings against sin in the pile of doctrines for unbelievers. This is a Law and Gospel distinction. The Bible does not force the Law on burdened sinners, but graciously extends the Gospel. Likewise, it does not grant the Gospel to unrepentant sinners, but brings the hammer of the Law.


Sin
We are all sinners. Christians, however, are sinners covered in Christ blood. But it's important to understand that sin is not a mere imperfection or sickness, but so deep and terrible that it corrupts everything, even our ability to reason. I think very often when we picture a "sinner", we think of someone who delights in gross sin. God's Word, however, calls even the highest of human virtues (apart from Christ) sin. This extends to piety, experience, and logic; our ability to reason. (Isaiah 64:6, Psalm 19:12)


The use of reason
There is a place for reason in our faith. Just as we use our sinful bodies to proclaim the Gospel, we also use reason to read, learn, and communicate it (1 Corinthians 1:21, 1 Corinthians 1:27).

Where reason falls short, however, is when it attempts to elevate itself above trust in God. This is a sin. There must be room for holy mysteries, because the Bible demands it. And I think, if we, as a Church, can recognise the Trinity as a mystery, it seems arbitrary to me that many cannot also understand His salvific work as a mystery. Basically, we don't reason with miracles, and salvation is the greatest of all miracles. We trust in a miracle, for it is a divine gift graciously given to us, and no greater gift is there than our Lord Jesus Christ, God in flesh.


The work of the Holy Spirit
The work of the Holy Spirit is alien to us. We can't fully grasp His regenerating work, but we can be certain that He accomplishes it and that He sustains us through the Word. Whenever God's Word is communicated to us, we can recognise it as the true Word of God and His pledge and goodwill to us. Likewise, when we receive the Eucharist, we receive the same Gospel, God's pledge and goodwill to us, in tangible form. This is to say, there is a comfort and assurance that comes with the Gospel, but for those who resist the Holy Spirit, who disbelieve in Him and will not receive the Word, those must be called to repentance by the Law.


Conclusion
No one is as loving, merciful, holy, and righteous, as our God - in fact, He alone is the source of these things, and we are not. Therefore, if anyone teaches anything that causes us to question God's goodness or His Word, we can rest assured that this is a doctrine not from God, but from man.

God is the God of peace, who truly died for all, who convicts us of sin, grants us repentance, and creates us in Christ, where the Holy Spirit produces good works in us. We can be free of any burden or uncertainty about our salvation, knowing that Christ is always with us; His love endures forever and His mercies are new every day.

The peace of Christ to you +
 
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Ann77

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You know, there is an unorthodox Lutheran version of TULIP. Therefore, to say one agrees with TULIP does not really provoke a divide or division. Just saying.
Could you explain further? Every Lutheran I ran into seemed to say Calvinists use reason too much and such.
 
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B-Confessional

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Standard Calvinist TULIP
Total Depravity (Man is dead in sin)
Unconditional Election (God chose to save some)
Limited Atonement (Jesus only died for the some)
Irresistible Grace (God will effectually call the some to salvation)
Perseverance of the Saints (The some will continue saved until the end)

Reformational Lutheran version of TULIP
Total Depravity (all fall short of God's righteous law inwardly & outwardly).
Unconditional Election (God will apply the merits & righteousness of Christ).
Limitless Atonement (all including the elect are atoned for).
Imminent Grace (saving faith is ever present in the gospel of God's grace).
Provision & protection for the saints (God providentially protects, directs, and nourishes the saints through word & sacrament).

Note:
The 1st over emphasizes God's sovereignty and veils the gospel in secret for an unknown people.
The 2nd adequately emphasizes God's sovereignty, yet reveals the gospel to all people.

-Peace be unto you-
 
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Ann77

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Standard Calvinist TULIP
Total Depravity (Man is dead in sin)
Unconditional Election (God chose to save some)
Limited Atonement (Jesus only died for the some)
Irresistible Grace (God will effectually call the some to salvation)
Perseverance of the Saints (The some will continue saved until the end)

Reformational Lutheran version of TULIP
Total Depravity (all fall short of God's righteous law inwardly & outwardly).
Unconditional Election (God will apply the merits & righteousness of Christ).
Limitless Atonement (all including the elect are atoned for).
Imminent Grace (saving faith is ever present in the gospel of God's grace).
Provision & protection for the saints (God providentially protects, directs, and nourishes the saints through word & sacrament).

Note:
The 1st over emphasizes God's sovereignty and veils the gospel in secret for an unknown people.
The 2nd adequately emphasizes God's sovereignty, yet reveals the gospel to all people.

-Peace be unto you-
Thank you. This was so helpful. And you also hold the elect too will persevere? I guess this will make it more than five tho.
 
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B-Confessional

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The scripture speaks to both realities. The prospect of falling away and the prospect of continuing to the end. Sometimes, "those given to Christ" is in reference to our Lord's apostles. It is usually expanded to include all who will believe, if you read the overall context. Man must point the finger at self if the grace offered in Christ is rejected or parted with. The good news does not discriminate... however, our flesh and the devil does. Thus, the necessity of pleading the blood of Christ (for forgiveness & strengthened faith) and clinging to God's means of grace (for forgiveness & strengthened faith).

11 I will no longer be in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to You. Holy Father, protect them by Your name, the name You gave Me, so that they may be one as We are one. 12 While I was with them, I protected and preserved them by Your name, the name You gave Me. Not one of them has been lost, except the son of destruction, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled. (BSB, John 17:11-12).
 
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Jim47

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I'm very sympathetic to Lutheranism, but this John 6:37-40 passage is a killer. It doesn't make sense to me if I am to hold to universal/unlimited atonement and monergistic salvation. It says no man can come to Him unless the Father grants it and the Son will lose none that come. You believe He desires the world to be saved and yet all are not saved, there is an elect. As well as believing the once regenerate can be lost. Does God not equally sustain the regenerate in the same way? I know some human reasoning is flawed, although, it seems like God is trying to tell us something about salvation through this passage--otherwise God wouldn't include this salvation passage as Scripture. In light of this, is there a Biblical way to reconcile this passage with Lutheran doctrine?


This is really quite simple. I don't know what bible text you are using but possibly what you are using is misleading you.

Here is the EHV version of same scripture.
35Jesus said to them,
“I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. 36But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of hall that he has given me, but I raise it up on the last day. 40For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

(Bibles, Crossway. The Holy Bible, English Standard Version (with Cross-References) (pp. 4149-4150). Good News Publishers. Kindle Edition.)

The only way to heaven is through faith in Jesus Christ as your sole source of salvation.
Pay special attention to verse 35 through verse 40. Even in the OT God taught the people that salvation could be found in no other place then through their Savior God.
Man can not earn is own salvation for we are utterly sinful from birth, nor can we be saved through idols and false gods.
Does that answer your question?
 
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