Gurdjieff & Jakob Boehme

[Soulgazer]

We all certainly have our opinions on the discernment of others, and no offense was taken or intended.

I think that was the 'gospel' of the OT. That God would send a messiah who would become the final sacrifice, for all man and not just 'the chosen Jews'. Why do you think all of the OT....lineage, religion and symbolic rites etc. was all there, and in effect, for several thousand years? Was it a joke? Or did it have a purpose you haven't figured out? Me neither BTW.

Nonsense. That is history or myth, and we have no control over it. It's a deed done, and though we should thank Jesus for it, and is PART of the Gospel, it was not HIS religion. Jesus railed about the things we DO have control over. The Gospel is the truth that He brought-- That every man has value, that "Good" is "Good" for it's own sake, not for the sake of religion.

I agree, James defined religion...all religions. But that did not negate the uniqueness of 'the religion' that was based upon "RELATIONSHIP' and not good DEEDS alone IMO. I believe I can be part of God's plan by helping OR NOT HELPING in a given situation. It depends upon what God is trying to accomplish in that individuals life at that time. You don't know what is best...God does. So whether you are to put mud in their eye to heal, or call them a brood of vipers is really His call and not ours IMO. Jesus himself said he didn't do/say anything he didn't see/hear the Father relay to him. And a lot of it still doesn't make sense to us today.

Your source for believing that is?


Yes, that all sounds GOOD SG. Maybe it is, I don't know.

Given the choice between your opinion above and the scripture below I am compelled to follow scripture on this point of disagreement.

ACT 16:16 As we were going to the place of prayer, we were met by a slave girl who had a spirit of divination and brought her owners much gain by soothsaying. WRONG SPIRIT
17 She followed Paul and us, crying, "These men are servants of the Most High God, who proclaim to you the way of salvation." TRUTH speaking

And mine is a relationship WITH Jesus. Wherein, there is a fine line of division between spirit and soul, I think. IOW being led by the spirit instead of being lead with your head. Man can always justify his head thinking as being right...or good.

Man can always claim a relationship with scripture to pull off the most remarkable atrocities also. My theology does not come from my head, but directly from the holy spirit. As such, whatever I write has as much spiritual athority as I can manage to squeeze into my limited abilities. I would absolutely hate to have someone collect my writings in a book and find that they are being used a couple milenia from now to hold people back.

I don't know who wrote the book of Acts. Churchianity claims it was "Luke" a loyal companion who never recieved any press in Paul's genuine writings. I think Paul would be surprized and not a little dismayed also to find himself portrayed in the novelette in such a fashion. What did Jesus say? In Mark the story goes, he chastized John for stopping people from preaching in His name, despite them not "being with us". "Whoever is not against us is for us". "Right Truth, right Spirit".

I disagree with your interpretation of the slave girl fable; It was the right spirit and the right truth. That she was compelled to give readings for the profit of her owners, a type of spiritual prostitution, compounded by the atrocity of a person of the belief he was owning that which can not be his, the life of another, a type of thievery of the absolute worst order, shows that even the proper spirit, in this case, the gift of truth, can be misinterpretted and misused for worldly profit.(Good and helpful "God", not good and un-helpful, "not God")

I do agree that what seems "good" to the mind can really be "not good". "lets end world hunger by using THIS pesticide". It can even seem to be good to people who claim spiritual authority. "We failed to take Jerusalem last time because of the wickedness of our army---we are sending children this time, and we are sure to succeed". However, if someone has a true relationship with Sophia and the Holy Spirit, the error of such thoughts is easily discernable.

I think that was the 'gospel' of the OT. That God would send a messiah who would become the final sacrifice, for all man and not just 'the chosen Jews'. Why do you think all of the OT....lineage, religion and symbolic rites etc. was all there, and in effect, for several thousand years? Was it a joke? Or did it have a purpose you haven't figured out? Me neither BTW.

It was actually just a few hundred years; some text date their origination back to 700 bc or so, but most were finished up around 350 bc. I would say the very self same reason the Q'uran has been around for a thousand years. People as a populace WANT an authority to tell them what to do so they won't have to take responsibility.

Jesus taught us just the opposite---we are each responsible for any anger or lustful thought, which makes us just as responsible to replace the bad with any good we might find. Paul genuinly wrote: "Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable--if anything is excellent or praiseworthy--think about such things."

 

[Hillsage]

Man can always claim a relationship with scripture to pull off the most remarkable atrocities also. My theology does not come from my head, but directly from the holy spirit. As such, whatever I write has as much spiritual athority as I can manage to squeeze into my limited abilities. I would absolutely hate to have someone collect my writings in a book and find that they are being used a couple milenia from now to hold people back.

History is full of the atrocities of man for sure. Both religious and hedonist men. I'm not going to say that all I believe came from the holy spirit. We are all subject to deception IMO and whether 'what we believe' is truly of God, or the sophistry of the adversary, will become evident on the day that we know as we have been know.

I don't know who wrote the book of Acts. Churchianity claims it was "Luke" a loyal companion who never recieved any press in Paul's genuine writings. I think Paul would be surprized and not a little dismayed also to find himself portrayed in the novelette in such a fashion. What did Jesus say? In Mark the story goes, he chastized John for stopping people from preaching in His name, despite them not "being with us". "Whoever is not against us is for us". "Right Truth, right Spirit".

I think you know from our past that I don't worship the book or believe in its infallability. But I put less authority on things written just as long ago, or longer, which have no 'stamp of incorruptibility' on them either. My goal is to be Sspirit led in all endeavors/encounters. And I have 'miles to go' I think.

I disagree with your interpretation of the slave girl fable; It was the right spirit and the right truth. That she was compelled to give readings for the profit of her owners, a type of spiritual prostitution, compounded by the atrocity of a person of the belief he was owning that which can not be his, the life of another, a type of thievery of the absolute worst order, shows that even the proper spirit, in this case, the gift of truth, can be misinterpretted and misused for worldly profit.(Good and helpful "God", not good and un-helpful, "not God")

Touche, I disagree with you also This deliverance was by the finger of God and therefore the authority of God. Of course that's if the fable be true...even though the real authorship be unknown.

I do agree that what seems "good" to the mind can really be "not good". "lets end world hunger by using THIS pesticide". It can even seem to be good to people who claim spiritual authority. "We failed to take Jerusalem last time because of the wickedness of our army---we are sending children this time, and we are sure to succeed". However, if someone has a true relationship with Sophia and the Holy Spirit, the error of such thoughts is easily discernable.

Can't really respond because I don't know what Sophia is and don't want to assume. Does it have something to do with capital HS this time as opposed to the lower case holy spirit earlier?

It was actually just a few hundred years; some text date their origination back to 700 bc or so, but most were finished up around 350 bc. I would say the very self same reason the Q'uran has been around for a thousand years. People as a populace WANT an authority to tell them what to do so they won't have to take responsibility.

Rules are for the immature til they reach the age of responsibility. Works that way for children and it worked that way for God's creation. Creation was under the tutelage of the feminine nature of El Shaddai (no written law). Then the masculine nature of God manifested, when the warring, law-giving Jehovah appeared to Moses. Finally, full maturity manifested from that androgenous masculine/feminine God and fulfilled the law saying we should be led of the Spirit.

Jesus taught us just the opposite---we are each responsible for any anger or lustful thought, which makes us just as responsible to replace the bad with any good we might find. Paul genuinly wrote: "Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable--if anything is excellent or praiseworthy--think about such things."

Jesus did teach us in His addressing the path to maturity. And He spoke highly 'faith of a child' as a good thing, but in no way promoting the 'understanding of a child' as our ultimate goal. If you don' 'earn it' as you 'learn it' you will never truly 'own it'.

 

[Soulgazer]

"Sophia" is the Greek name for Wisdom, which we use to differentiate the anthropomorphised aspect of God as given in Proverbs 8 from the wisdom of the flesh. She is also the youngest Aion in our lore.

"
22 The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:
26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;
31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men."



Societal rules attributed to God, ok. As far as the Decalog goes, they would be from God, though I doubt any more directly than from the pneumatic part of our collective conciousness. "Sophistry of the adversary"? No such thing. Sophia is God's, and God's alone. I'm sure "the adversary" has worked very long and very hard to convince people that desire to be Christian to ignore Her though, a double false flag, so that when they hear Wisdom they disdain it as the devil's.

Words are the greatest stumbing block to communication. What is "good" is to help others who need it. What is "not good" is to ignore them. The opposite of Love is not hate---it's indifference. Indifference to how people feel, how they relate, how they have to struggle to get by. Love pays attention; anything other than Love does not. Again, go back to the parrable of the Samaritan. "God's chosen people" walked right by the man in trouble. They weren't really God's except in their own mind. So God used someone who would listen to Him.

This relates to this conversation in this way. "God's chosen people" in their own minds, were not paying attention to the suffering of the mentally ill; oh, I'm sure they prayed, but they ignored Sophia---they had forgotten the Christian teachings of how the mind works, the separation of the influences of spirit and flesh. So God used someone who would listen to Him. Same thing.

Wisdom summons you in her goodness, saying, "Come to Me, all of you, O foolish ones, that you may receive a gift, the understanding which is good and excellent. I am giving to you a high-priestly garment which is woven from every (kind of) wisdom." What else is evil death except ignorance? What else is evil darkness except familiarity with forgetfulness? Cast your anxiety upon God alone. Do not become desirous of gold and silver, which are profitless, but clothe yourself with wisdom like a robe; put knowledge on yourself like a crown, and be seated upon a throne of perception. For these are yours, and you will receive them again on high another time.
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But before everything (else), know your birth. Know yourself, that is, from what substance you are, or from what race, or from what species. Understand that you have come into being from three races: from the earth, from the formed, and from the created. The body has come into being from the earth with an earthly substance, but the formed, for the sake of the soul, has come into being from the thought of the Divine. The created, however, is the mind, which has come into being in conformity with the image of God. The divine mind has substance from the Divine, but the soul is that which he (God) formed for their own hearts. For I think that it (the soul) exists as wife of that which has come into being in conformity with the image, but matter is the substance of the body, which has come into being from the earth.

~Teaching of Sylvanus.

 

[Hillsage]

"Sophia" is the Greek name for Wisdom, which we use to differentiate the anthropomorphised aspect of God as given in Proverbs 8 from the wisdom of the flesh. She is also the youngest Aion in our lore.

Had to Google Aion and Anthropomorphism to answer this one. Is the "Christos" older than "sophia" then? And would 'older' be more/less wise?

"
22 The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:
26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;
31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men."

Are all Proverbs 'cut and paste-able' or is there acceptable and non acceptable writ in its chapters? Just curious.

Societal rules attributed to God, ok. As far as the Decalog goes, they would be from God, though I doubt any more directly than from the pneumatic part of our collective conciousness.

Then who needs God...if we already are?

"Sophistry of the adversary"? No such thing. Sophia is God's, and God's alone. I'm sure "the adversary" has worked very long and very hard to convince people that desire to be Christian to ignore Her though, a double false flag, so that when they hear Wisdom they disdain it as the devil's.

There is evil sophistry in my studies. Who is 'the serpent' in your opinion?

2 Corinthians 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty/panourgia, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

3834 panourgia: adroitness ie (in a bad sense) trickery or sophistry

Words are the greatest stumbing block to communication. What is "good" is to help others who need it. What is "not good" is to ignore them. The opposite of Love is not hate---it's indifference.

I thought we had agreed before that it was FEAR?

Indifference to how people feel, how they relate, how they have to struggle to get by. Love pays attention; anything other than Love does not. Again, go back to the parrable of the Samaritan. "God's chosen people" walked right by the man in trouble. They weren't really God's except in their own mind. So God used someone who would listen to Him.

If I come home from work and see my two hellions playing with the neighborhood angels guess whose coming in to my house for dinner? My chosen ones. Even Paul ascribed all of us to be 'offspring of God' at Athens. It's merely timing for each of us IMO.

This relates to this conversation in this way. "God's chosen people" in their own minds, were not paying attention to the suffering of the mentally ill; oh, I'm sure they prayed, but they ignored Sophia---they had forgotten the Christian teachings of how the mind works, the separation of the influences of spirit and flesh. So God used someone who would listen to Him. Same thing.

How could they 'forget' that which was not yet revealed? It was not 'their time' to see, as the "Christos" was not yet fully manifested....IMO.

Goodnight.

 

[Soulgazer]

Had to Google Aion and Anthropomorphism to answer this one. Is the "Christos" older than "sophia" then? And would 'older' be more/less wise?

Christ and Sophia are part of the Logos; consorts in our mythos.

Are all Proverbs 'cut and paste-able' or is there acceptable and non acceptable writ in its chapters? Just curious.

We are not head over heels with any part of the Old Testament. This proverb is quoted by Sylvanus.

Then who needs God...if we already are?

We do. We are, but we are also ourselves and animals. It takes a knowledge of God to sort out the mess.

There is evil sophistry in my studies. Who is 'the serpent' in your opinion?

2 Corinthians 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty/panourgia, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

3834 panourgia: adroitness ie (in a bad sense) trickery or sophistry

I guess I should have looked up the word :o

I thought we had agreed before that it was FEAR?

No, fear is the root of ANGER.

If I come home from work and see my two hellions playing with the neighborhood angels guess whose coming in to my house for dinner? My chosen ones. Even Paul ascribed all of us to be 'offspring of God' at Athens. It's merely timing for each of us IMO.

I believe Paul would have accepted Jung, as Jung based his concepts on Paul's teachings in the Gnostic texts. Genuine Paul was pretty accepting except to Judaizers.

How could they 'forget' that which was not yet revealed? It was not 'their time' to see, as the "Christos" was not yet fully manifested....IMO.

Goodnight.

It was revealed. I quoted Sylvanus.


Good night my brother! I always enjoy talking with you!

 

[Hillsage]

Christ and Sophia are part of the Logos; consorts in our mythos. We are not head over heels with any part of the Old Testament. This proverb is quoted by Sylvanus.

I always wonder if I don't sound like I'm in total agreement with people when, in reality, we really have a 'common words' conversation not knowing our definitions are really not the same. But I think you know more of me than I do of Gnosticism. But you bring a plethora of "whaz that word" (bold above)....admittedly only if it is kind of squeezed out of you.

[/quote]We do. We are, but we are also ourselves and animals. It takes a knowledge of God to sort out the mess. I guess I should have looked up the word :o No, fear is the root of ANGER. I believe Paul would have accepted Jung, as Jung based his concepts on Paul's teachings in the Gnostic texts. Genuine Paul was pretty accepting except to Judaizers. It was revealed. I quoted Sylvanus.[/quote]

I'm gonna make it short this time. Never heard of Sylvanus for Proberbs.

Good night my brother! I always enjoy talking with you!

 

[rEACHout4all]

Recently I've been doing a lot of reading on the "Fourth Way" teachings of Gurdjieff. I really saw a LOT of parallels to the ideas of one my favorite Christian mystics there - Jakob Boehme. This is especially the case with Gurdjieff's idea of the laws of three and seven (as well as the Ray of Creation) and Boehmes teaching regarding the Trinity and the 7 Spirits of God. As obvious as the parallels were to me I can't seem to find anyone who connects the dots there and illuminates the two teachings by comparing them. If anyone has a book, article, web page, or whatnot that goes into this topic I would really appreciate it if they could post a link here.

Thanks

If the Christian community is ever revitalized and once again takes up it's rightful place at the leading edge of human evolution I really think people like Jakob Boehme and Gurdjieff will be recognized as having played an important part leading up to it.

As long as there is division between the east and west, the teachings will be difficult for westerners to understand.

 

[gord44]

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