Guns are good...

[ChiRho]

From the Chicago Tribune:

Managers at a nursing home were prepared to cope with the power outages and had enough food for days, but then the looting began. The home's bus driver was forced to surrender the vehicle to carjackers.

Bands of people drove by the nursing home, shouting to residents, ''Get out!'' Eighty residents, most of them in wheelchairs, were being evacuated to other nursing homes.

''We had enough food for 10 days,'' said Peggy Hoffman, the home's executive director. ''Now we'll have to equip our department heads with guns and teach them how to shoot.''

After reading this, can anyone seriously argue against the second amendment?

 

[SPALATIN]

From the Chicago Tribune:




After reading this, can anyone seriously argue against the second amendment?

Guns are good for Hunting and self defense.

In this case they essentially became their own militia. They had to protect what was rightfully theirs.

 

[C.F.W. Walther]

Evacuation of the Super Dome in N'arlins was stopped because people are shooting at the heliocopters and evacuators. People are nuts. Rioting and looting with gangs are tearing apart the affected cities. People that have guns in LA need them fro protection form those idiots and the government has been trying to take their protection from them for years. Things will get worse the longer that utilities are suspended and gas isn't availabel.

 

[Flipper]

Another example of "Feesha Logic." My daddy works for a major gun manufacturer, and has for 38 years. It's all he knows, and with my mom's health problems, the insurance he gets through said manufacturer is a God-Send.

You can imagine where I stand on the issue - whatever keeps him employed.

 

[Jim47]

Its been pretty well proven by actual statics that wherever guns are banned or made otherwise impossible for the average person to own, that crime has gone up. History is our best instructor.


If the people in Germany had guns to use, Hitler would have never gotten away with he he did. I talk to folks in South American and Austrila and other places where their guns have been taken away, and in every case, no matter where it is, things got worse.

 

[IowaLutheran]

Guns may be good, but what this situation needs is not a few citizens with guns, but an executive order sending in tanks and armored amphibious assault vehicles from the Marines now.

 

[MORTANIUS]

Guns are bad, because they're guns m'kay. lol

No real opinion

 

[SPALATIN]

As one comedian I heard once put it. Give 'em all the guns they want, but charge them plenty for the bullets.

 

[ChiRho]

As one comedian I heard once put it. Give 'em all the guns they want, but charge them plenty for the bullets.

As Ted Nugent quipped, "If guns kill people, mine are all defective."

 

[ctobola]

I dunno that I'd laugh at that.

Guns are evil. They are designed to kill another living creature -- whether they are in the hands of a cop or a criminal. They are a sign of our fallen nature and our inability to deal with our world without resorting to destruction and death.

-c

Guns are bad, because they're guns m'kay. lol

No real opinion

 

[Jim47]

I dunno that I'd laugh at that.

Guns are evil. They are designed to kill another living creature -- whether they are in the hands of a cop or a criminal. They are a sign of our fallen nature and our inability to deal with our world without resorting to destruction and death.

-c

According your measurement of things, must be much more that is evil: Jet fuel and airplannes killed thousands at 9/11. Fertilizer and I think it was dish soap killed hundreds at the OK Federal building bombing (Guess we have to start using paper plates and plastic Huh? Oh, but how are we going to cook, Oh Yeah, we still can barbecue on a stick but that won't work for Cheerios and many other things) Gas of some kind was used to kill millions of Jews, Yeah I know some were shot but I don't think it was the guns fault. How many thousands of people have we read about that have been killed by automobiles? Guess we can all walk though. I won't even go into all of the different ways that "evil" people that didn't use guns kidnapped women, girls and little boys and then tortured them and killed them "after having sexualy abused them", You did give up sex though right?

No, I don't think any of this is a bit funny, but men were killing men long before guns came about, or haven't you read your Bible lately?

Now for some useful ways in which guns have been used:

Law enforcement, or would you prefer that our Police officers go after the bad guys who armed with guns using only ball bats? Wonder how many bad guys we would capture and put in jail?

Shooting sports. You say why do we need shooting sports? Why do we need foortball or baseball or golf or bowling, I just don't happent like any of those and many others feel the same way.

Hunting: Yeah I have used bow and arrow but won't be anymore cause of age and bad shoulders and tendonitis. Why do we need to hunt wild game you say? Why do you need to hamburger, pork, chicken or any other meat? Those animals were all killed in a much more inhumane manner than by a bullet, if you think not you should visit a slaughter house.

Other common "evil" things by your standards:
Rope, clubs, knives,all kinds of things that could be used for poison but may be used as medicine just as well, a persons hand mustbe evil??

Get the point? Things aren't evil! Sinful man is evil!

 

[Jenna]

Rock on, Jim.

 

[ctobola]

Jim,

Thanks for your reply. You raise some good points, but I believe that you misunderstood my original post. You are correct that objects are amoral; but when a human creates an object with the intention of using it for evil, the line between the object and the intent becomes pretty thin. And the moment a drug user picks up that bag of methamphetamine or ecstasy, there is little else that those products can be used for. They become integral to the sinful behavior -- an extension of the person.

Insofar as guns are used by humans to threaten or kill a living creature, they are fundamentally part of an evil action.

[font=&quot]According your measurement of things, must be much more that is evil: Jet fuel and airplanes killed thousands at 9/11. Fertilizer and I think it was dish soap killed hundreds at the OK Federal building bombing (Guess we have to start using paper plates and plastic Huh? Oh, but how are we going to cook, Oh Yeah, we still can barbecue on a stick but that won't work for Cheerios and many other things) Gas of some kind was used to kill millions of Jews, Yeah I know some were shot but I don't think it was the guns fault. How many thousands of people have we read about that have been killed by automobiles? Guess we can all walk though. I won't even go into all of the different ways that "evil" people that didn't use guns kidnapped women, girls and little boys and then tortured them and killed them "after having sexualy abused them", You did give up sex though right?

[/font]

I have yet to see any of the items above sold based on its killing power. Guns are indeed sold based on their ability to kill people and animals, most of those other things were not.

[font=&quot]No, I don't think any of this is a bit funny, but men were killing men long before guns came about, or haven't you read your Bible lately?[/font]
[font=&quot]Now for some useful ways in which guns have been used:[/font]

I don’t know if useful has anything to do with it. Useful is not the opposite of good.

Shooting a person so you can take his/her possessions, land, gold, etc., is certainly useful… but it’s not right.

[font=&quot]Law enforcement, or would you prefer that our Police officers go after the bad guys who armed with guns using only ball bats? Wonder how many bad guys we would capture and put in jail?[/font]

Did I say that?

Let me ask you a question…. Was it a good thing that we dropped the A-bomb on Japan and killed millions of innocent men, women and children? ...or was it lesser evil than allowing the war to continue?

Is to a wonderful thing that we equip law enforcement officers to kill other human beings? ...or is it a lesser evil than asking them to protect us unarmed? (Ask a cop who has had gun down another human being. No matter how justified the shooting, none of them enjoys it... and for many it will haunt them for the rest of their lives.)

[font=&quot]Shooting sports. You say why do we need shooting sports? Why do we need foortball or baseball or golf or bowling, I just don't happent like any of those and many others feel the same way.[/font]

I'll give you that one, but this represents a small portion of the gun activity and commerce in our world. And in many cases, it's in preparation for shooting an animal or (in the case of target practice for soliders and police) a human being.

[font=&quot]Hunting: Yeah I have used bow and arrow but won't be anymore cause of age and bad shoulders and tendonitis. Why do we need to hunt wild game you say? Why do you need to hamburger, pork, chicken or any other meat? Those animals were all killed in a much more inhumane manner than by a bullet, if you think not you should visit a slaughter house.[/font]

I'd argue that slaughter houses are a reflection of our sinful nature as well. Remember that in the Garden of Eden, there was no death. God's original plan was not to have us kill living creatures for food -- that came about with the fall. It is a result of sin coming into the world. Do I eat meat? You bet... but I do so understanding that an animal died for that steak. I understand that there was bloodshed, and that is not what God intended for us.

[font=&quot]Other common "evil" things by your standards:[/font]
[font=&quot]Rope, clubs, knives,all kinds of things that could be used for poison but may be used as medicine just as well, a persons hand mustbe evil??[/font]

Addressed above...

[font=&quot]Get the point? Things aren't evil! Sinful man is evil![/font]

I do get the point -- as Aristotle said, we often consider things to be good, when they are simply the lesser of two evils that could be chosen.

Putting a Glock on the hip of a police officer is not a joyous thing -- the gun is intended to kill another child of God, who is just as sinful and guilty under the Law as we are. The need for that gun is a desperately sad and evil thing... but it is less evil than allowing people to die at the hands of others.

I'd encourage you to look at the works of Lutheran theologian Reinhold Niebuhr -- he is a classic theologian of the cross, who had remarkable insight into the issues of power, violence, war and human nature. A really good radio program about him is available online at: http://speakingoffaith.publicradio.org/programs/niebuhr/index.shtml


In Christ, -Cloy

 

[Flipper]

I'll give you that one, but this represents a small portion of the gun activity and commerce in our world. And in many cases, it's in preparation for shooting an animal or (in the case of target practice for soliders and police) a human being.

Actually, my earlier mentioned father who works for a major manufacturer will tell you that guns manufacturered specifically for target sport make up the largest amount of consumer sales with that company - and I doubt that is only the case with that particular company. Yes, I guess if you are shooting at point blank range, a gun and ammo made just for skeet, trap or sporting clays (for example), could be used to kill a person or animal, but it is very hard to hunt with guns not made specifically for hunting, just like it is very difficult to use shotguns made for hunting on the skeet and trap range. I've shot with both kinds on the skeet range - it's true.

If someone is wanting to shoot someone at point blank range, the problem is the person and not the firearm. Even if they are illegal, if someone wants to badly enough, he/she could get their hands on a gun or on something that will facilitate the same result - therefore, again, the problem is with the person and not the firearm.

 

[Jim47]

Hi Cloy


I'm going to give you an "A" for effort, but that doesn't mean you are right on much of your points. Lets talk!

Jim,

Thanks for your reply. You raise some good points, but I believe that you misunderstood my original post. You are correct that objects are amoral; but when a human creates an object with the intention of using it for evil, the line between the object and the intent becomes pretty thin. And the moment a drug user picks up that bag of methamphetamine or ecstasy, there is little else that those products can be used for. They become integral to the sinful behavior -- an extension of the person.

Insofar as guns are used by humans to threaten or kill a living creature, they are fundamentally part of an evil action.

I think you already know this, but just for the record, it matters not a hoot what kind of weapon you give a bad guy he is going to get the job done. I'm sure you've heard what they make knives out of in prison.

If your point above were true, then pillows would also have to be evil, because they have been used many times in murder, and I don't care to waste ink here and debate this further, that is a fact which you can't deny, and because of that, guns are no more evil than anything else made by man. Things only get out of hand and become bad when in the hands of bad people, that too is a fact. This is what "SIN" is all about. Its our job to go out and witness to these people and let God convict their sins. You don't just give up and let them run the world. Is that what you get from the OT? Not what I remember.

I have yet to see any of the items above sold based on its killing power. Guns are indeed sold based on their ability to kill people and animals, most of those other things were not.

Guns were designed for defence and the hunting of the animals that God has given us to eat. Again, it matters not whether you use a sledge hammer to knock them in the head or shoot them with a gun.

Most of my shooting, about 98% of it used to punch holes in paper. I shoot comtetively, I don't win much cause I'm old and worn out, but I still enjoy it. It also happens to be a sport in which I spend much quality time with my son. In fact everyone of age in my immediate family hunts with the exception of my wife, and she does shoot guns occasionaly. This happens to be a sport in which I get great pleasure. I was never any good at the common sports as you know, shooting I can do, and am getting better.

I don’t know if useful has anything to do with it. Useful is not the opposite of good.

Shooting a person so you can take his/her possessions, land, gold, etc., is certainly useful… but it’s not right.

Come on Cloy, that was a low blow. Where did I say I wanted to shoot anyone? If yer talking about the bad guys, are we going to outlaw pillows, all knives, ball bats and on and on and on????????

Did I say that?

Let me ask you a question…. Was it a good thing that we dropped the A-bomb on Japan and killed millions of innocent men, women and children? ...or was it lesser evil than allowing the war to continue?

Is to a wonderful thing that we equip law enforcement officers to kill other human beings? ...or is it a lesser evil than asking them to protect us unarmed? (Ask a cop who has had gun down another human being. No matter how justified the shooting, none of them enjoys it... and for many it will haunt them for the rest of their lives.)

Did you know that Japan is now one of our better allies? Was it right to drop the bomb? Given the choice of having untold hundreds of thousands of men die for both countries, I think we made the right decision. It was not we who went to war against them, and if we had not used it I'm guessing they may have won the war and your life would be a little different. Have you ever given thanks to God for the servicemen and women who have died so you could have your opinions?

I do get the point -- as Aristotle said, we often consider things to be good, when they are simply the lesser of two evils that could be chosen.

Putting a Glock on the hip of a police officer is not a joyous thing -- the gun is intended to kill another child of God, who is just as sinful and guilty under the Law as we are. The need for that gun is a desperately sad and evil thing... but it is less evil than allowing people to die at the hands of others.

I'd encourage you to look at the works of Lutheran theologian Reinhold Niebuhr -- he is a classic theologian of the cross, who had remarkable insight into the issues of power, violence, war and human nature. A really good radio program about him is available online at:

Have you ever had a wife or daughter kidnapped or raped, or read about the stories of people such as the infamious BTK killer. Please tell me that you would rather let your loved one be given over to the pleasures of such as these, but first go get your wife and your mother and let them hear it too.

As for Policemen breaking down, Yeah I know alot about that. Very few people get pleasure of taking or injuring a life Cloy, and that had better not be a Police officer. They are humans too and can break down over extreme stress, but you don't have to be a Cop to have stress and break down. Visit the depression forum here and talk to those folks, I doubt that any of their problems are gun related.

Oh, and wasn't Aristotle an athesist? Why would I consider anything he said? I'll check out your web site when I get my DSL hooked up, its kind of forever just to get this page opened if you know what I mean?

 

[setmefree]

Did someone say guns?

Guns are indeed both major fun (don’t knock it if you haven’t tried it) and very effective for defending ones loved ones.

I got hooked on the joys of shooting very late in life, only a few years ago in fact.

Yup. Sig, Smith &Wesson, CZ, Ruger and Winchester are the names of my favorite toys. (also our cat Siggy has the honor of being named after a great 9mm)

I hope and I don’t have to turn these toys into something deadly, but when our over stretched police force takes way too long to respond to calls of distress I am prepared do so as a last resort.

 

[Flipper]

My in-laws live in one of the biggest meth producing counties in the country - it usually ranks in the top 3 every year. Especially with new laws in place controlling the amount of sudafed products sold, it's bringing in more expensive meth from other areas, driving many of the addicts to steal. Where they live is quite rural - would take at least 15-20 minutes for a sheriff's deputy to show up on the best of days. There have been break ins, robberies, and shootings out there by people desparate for cash to buy their fix.

If I lived out there, which could be a possibility since we have property out there and hope to build, I would seriously consider keeping a loaded gun in my house - as much as I am against doing that with children around. I would at least keep the gun and ammo closer together. Realistically, I'm just hoping that the crime is better contained when we get out there, so I don't have to think about making such decisions. I think one of the things keeping them away from my sister in law's house now, is that her husband keeps a gun in plain site with him when he's riding around in his tractor - and everyone around there knows he has that gun. I don't even know if it's loaded - just the presence is enough. They are left alone.

One thing I want to address here... I'm only comfortable around firearms, and talking about them, because I grew up with them, I was taught firearm safety as soon as I was walking (starting with, don't touch the guns unless daddy is with you and tells you that you can), and it continued as I got older. Even when I got my first BB gun at age 10, I couldn't even touch it unless dad was in the room with me. As soon as I had the hand-eye coordination, I was taught the first rule when you pick up a gun is to make sure it's unloaded, and even if it is unloaded, treat it as though it is loaded. I can talk about it here because that's the subject, but I don't go around volunteering that I like to shoot guns. Most of my friends don't know, it just hasn't come up in conversation. I think that's the case with most of you - especially women as it's not a very feminine subject to talk about (which is sad because not many women know that they can get the stocks of their rifles and shotguns cut to fit them better, making them more comfortable to shoot).

Ok, I'm coming to a point.

Not everyone was taught as strictly as I was (and it seems like many of you were), and some weren't taught anything at all - you can tell such people by all the stupid mistakes that make the evening news. When someone doesn't grow up with gunsmiths, or gun afficionado's in the house, or with someone who will teach them proper firearm use and safety, and they see such stories in the news, of course they are going to think guns are evil, and should be outlawed. My experience is that you just can't argue with them either.

 

[SPALATIN]

My in-laws live in one of the biggest meth producing counties in the country - it usually ranks in the top 3 every year. Especially with new laws in place controlling the amount of sudafed products sold, it's bringing in more expensive meth from other areas, driving many of the addicts to steal. Where they live is quite rural - would take at least 15-20 minutes for a sheriff's deputy to show up on the best of days. There have been break ins, robberies, and shootings out there by people desparate for cash to buy their fix.

If I lived out there, which could be a possibility since we have property out there and hope to build, I would seriously consider keeping a loaded gun in my house - as much as I am against doing that with children around. I would at least keep the gun and ammo closer together. Realistically, I'm just hoping that the crime is better contained when we get out there, so I don't have to think about making such decisions. I think one of the things keeping them away from my sister in law's house now, is that her husband keeps a gun in plain site with him when he's riding around in his tractor - and everyone around there knows he has that gun. I don't even know if it's loaded - just the presence is enough. They are left alone.

One thing I want to address here... I'm only comfortable around firearms, and talking about them, because I grew up with them, I was taught firearm safety as soon as I was walking (starting with, don't touch the guns unless daddy is with you and tells you that you can), and it continued as I got older. Even when I got my first BB gun at age 10, I couldn't even touch it unless dad was in the room with me. As soon as I had the hand-eye coordination, I was taught the first rule when you pick up a gun is to make sure it's unloaded, and even if it is unloaded, treat it as though it is loaded. I can talk about it here because that's the subject, but I don't go around volunteering that I like to shoot guns. Most of my friends don't know, it just hasn't come up in conversation. I think that's the case with most of you - especially women as it's not a very feminine subject to talk about (which is sad because not many women know that they can get the stocks of their rifles and shotguns cut to fit them better, making them more comfortable to shoot).

Ok, I'm coming to a point.

Not everyone was taught as strictly as I was (and it seems like many of you were), and some weren't taught anything at all - you can tell such people by all the stupid mistakes that make the evening news. When someone doesn't grow up with gunsmiths, or gun afficionado's in the house, or with someone who will teach them proper firearm use and safety, and they see such stories in the news, of course they are going to think guns are evil, and should be outlawed. My experience is that you just can't argue with them either.

Like they used to say in the Old West. "if yer gonna point it at me, you better be prepared to pull trigger."

I won't go into the explanation as I am sure most of you know what would happen if the man holding the gun and pointing the gun didn't pull the trigger.

 

[Flipper]

Like they used to say in the Old West. "if yer gonna point it at me, you better be prepared to pull trigger."

I won't go into the explanation as I am sure most of you know what would happen if the man holding the gun and pointing the gun didn't pull the trigger.

When I was around 8, and my dad was out of town at a Civil War Re-Enactment, a burgler broke into our house. My mom woke up and grabbed an unloaded 9mm and scared the c*r*a*p out of him, literally, when she pointed it at him and told him that if he moved an inch, she would blow his head off. She then walked over to the phone, called the police, and told them that if someone didn't get over there, she was going to blow that guy's head off. The cops came into the house with their guns drawn, and only after they arrested the guy and took him away, did even they realize the 9mm was unloaded.

 

[SPALATIN]

When I was around 8, and my dad was out of town at a Civil War Re-Enactment, a burgler broke into our house. My mom woke up and grabbed an unloaded 9mm and scared the c*r*a*p out of him, literally, when she pointed it at him and told him that if he moved an inch, she would blow his head off. She then walked over to the phone, called the police, and told them that if someone didn't get over there, she was going to blow that guy's head off. The cops came into the house with their guns drawn, and only after they arrested the guy and took him away, did even they realize the 9mm was unloaded.

Evidently cooler heads prevailed. She would be hard to beat at poker.