GUILTY

[stevevw]

Everybody has an identity. If they share some characteristic of their identity with others, they are likely to form a group, especially if they have been abused or discriminated against in some way because of that characteristic. They don't lose their identity because they are in a group.

And no ones denying that. Its when those group identities want to push how they subjectively see the world and reality onto everyone else. That happens on both sides. We have seen this with religion, how Creationism was being pushed into education and then rejected as an ideology rather than fact.

The same with current identity politics. The idea of Gender, sex and race identity as being more real than other ways we identifty and even trumping science and objective reality. Thats the problem. No one is saying people cannot identify with whatever they want. Its that they want to make everyone else think the same way when its a subjective belief and not a reality for everyone.

We see this with how the ideology has entered sports, womens issues, mens demeaning as being Toxic, education, the tearing down of long held beliefs and truths and even with policy and laws (making subjective identity a protected and objectively real entity).

We seen this with how corporations were pushing this ideology only to suffer financial loses and how many young people have been misdiagnosed and harmed permanately. It has real consequences.

 

[BCP1928]

And no ones denying that. Its when those group identities want to push how they subjectively see the world and reality onto everyone else.

I'm not sure how that would work. We all see the world subjectively, but reality doesn't care how we see it. What you are complaining about is that other people's subjective view of reality is different from yours.

That happens on both sides. We have seen this with religion, how Creationism was being pushed into education and then rejected as an ideology rather than fact.

It was already not a fact before it was being pushed as an ideology and it was rejected because it was not a fact.

The same with current identity politics. The idea of Gender, sex and race identity as being more real than other ways we identify

More real? I think you mean "subjectively more important to some people." Otherwise your comment makes no sense.

 

[stevevw]

Yes, the pie is growing but the piece left over for the workers is smaller. The reasons the pie are growing is not the same as the reason the worker's share is getting smaller.

But that are not completely detached either. For example housing prices have been artifically propped up over recent years creating a significant boost to economic growth in that area including manufacturing and related industries growing alongside this boom.

But this has come at a cost to housing costs, rents and building materials being overpriced and adding to inflation. Now the average person cannot afford a home or rents and homelessness has grown along with inflation associated with the artifically inflation of the housing market. We are seeing disjointed economic growth where in some parts of the economy its growing and in other parts its stalling and unaffordable.

Thats not a good sign of economic stability for the future. Even if we credit governments with these short term economic growths this doesn't mean they are good for the long term. Thats what governments do, they pump up the short term benefits at the expense of what is best in the long term. For many we are just repeating the same mistakes that led to the GFC in 2008.

One of the possibilities being discussed in this thread is that the Biden government is lying about the strength of the economy as pert of a scheme to crash it in order to impose totalitarian socialism. What do you think?

I don't think any giovernment wants to purposely and explicitly crash the economy. That would be madness in that whichever government does this will be voted out considering that economics is the number one concern.

But I think there are certain forces at play, behind governments such as big corp, powerful people who have much influence outside government who have all sorts of ideas and agendas based on their own ideas. I have heard of people like Soros, BlackRock, Statestreet and Vanguard for example.

They control a phenomenal amount of money, banking, stocks, and have a big influence on Governments and world bodies like the World Monetary Fund. These massive entities hold world power and are primarily profit orientated capitalists who put profits before people and the planet.

The Left are primarily socialist so its in their makeup to have unified monetary control so its not beyond them to implement universal controls in some form. If you look at the activist groups associated with the environment, Gender ideology, Race activism, social justice you will find most are on the Left and also have strong socialist beliefs as their basis about tearing down capitalism and implementing a form of socialist control.

 

[ozso]

Is Jerome Powell “in on it”?
(This deserves “better”)

Lemme get this straight, this “possibility“ of the Biden Administration “cooking-the-books” to make it seem “things are better!”, is something that career bureaucrats would do, voluntarily?

AND “keep it secret” from the MSM, (or wait, the MSM are in-on-it too!?).
Wait, no the MSM loves Trump as President, he sold a lot of “papers”, he rescued the NYT and WP single-handedly.

So if this “possibility“ is true, I think that that’s great evidence that this Biden fella has “got-the-chops” and should be in charge of a government that leaks like a sieve getting such a “project” to succeed!

Biden has got-the-puppeteers.

 

[Bradskii]

Then show me where I made stuff up.

Wekk, that's pretty easy...

..costs of live to triple in the last couple of years...

 

[stevevw]

I'm not sure how that would work. We all see the world subjectively, but reality doesn't care how we see it. What you are complaining about is that other people's subjective view of reality is different from yours.

You missed the point. Yes we all have different subjective views and beliefs. My point was that no ones subjective views and beliefs should be forced onto others. If they are all subjective then they should not be used as the measure of reality. Like you said reality doesn't care about subjective determinations.

But that is what is happening. Subjective feelings and beliefs about identity are being codified and made truth and reality over other peoples beliefs and views. One belief is being backed by the State just like the State used the church to enforce a belief.

It was already not a fact before it was being pushed as an ideology and it was rejected because it was not a fact.

Yes so I am using that example of the inconsistency and hypocracy of how we now have certain ideological beliefs being encoded and enforced on society by the State and its agents in schools and mainstream society with various beliefs such as DEI which has no scientific basis and is a belief and not fact.

More real? I think you mean "subjectively more important to some people." Otherwise your comment makes no sense.

No I mean real as in objectively real. Yes subjective determinations are not fact but identity relating to sex, race and gender is being made out to be objectively real to the point that it trumps actual objective reality ie someones subjective sense of self identity of being a women trumps the biological reality of being a women.

The subjective determinations of ideologues beliefs that all whites are inherently racist, oppressors and evil and all minorities are oppressed and need protecting from the horrible whites ect ect ect.

All subjective beliefs imposed on society and the basis for ideas like Equity within the DEI ideology that we need to priviledge those so called oppressed groups while demeaning other groups who are percieved as prividleged. Its all belief and not based in reality.

Its all divisive and promotes the exact opposite of what the ideologues claim about equality. It creates an unequal society and pits groups against each other. Thats a religion and not reality.

 

[stevevw]

Wekk, that's pretty easy...

What does Wekk mean lol. I am not sure.

Like I said it depends how you measure the cost of living. Inflation for the 5 years pre covid was hovering around 2.2% on average. Post covid it was sitting at around 6.5% average for the 5 years after. Thats almost a trippling of the cost of living.

Even if we say thats over stating the point, its not made up, the cost of living did go up a lot so there is truth to my claim.

 

[essentialsaltes]

He may be a bad candidate but he's an amazing president.

He was an awful president. He got hundreds of thousands of Americans killed, destroyed the US reputation abroad, lead an insurrection, the list goes on. He's the worst president we have had in over 100 years.

Slightly working this back to GUILTY, a recent Trump solicitation referenced both his indictments and where his followers rank him among presidents. (and yes, Pence is still on the email logo)

 

[BCP1928]

You missed the point. Yes we all have different subjective views and beliefs. My point was that no ones subjective views and beliefs should be forced onto others. If they are all subjective then they should not be used as the measure of reality. Like you said reality doesn't care about subjective determinations.

How does one force a subjective belief onto another? My subjective beliefs are my subjective beliefs, not anyone else's. Theirs are theirs and I can't force them to change.

But that is what is happening. Subjective feelings and beliefs about identity are being codified and made truth and reality over other peoples beliefs and views. One belief is being backed by the State just like the State used the church to enforce a belief.

No, the state is reminding us that LGBT people exist whether you like it or not and they have to be taken as part of reality.

Yes so I am using that example of the inconsistency and hypocracy of how we now have certain ideological beliefs being encoded and enforced on society by the State and its agents in schools and mainstream society with various beliefs such as DEI which has no scientific basis and is a belief and not fact.

No I mean real as in objectively real. Yes subjective determinations are not fact but identity relating to sex, race and gender is being made out to be objectively real to the point that it trumps actual objective reality ie someones subjective sense of self identity of being a women trumps the biological reality of being a women.

The subjective determinations of ideologues beliefs that all whites are inherently racist, oppressors and evil and all minorities are oppressed and need protecting from the horrible whites ect ect ect.

That's not CRT, that's the fascist rhetorical misrepresentation CRT.

All subjective beliefs imposed on society and the basis for ideas like Equity within the DEI ideology that we need to priviledge those so called oppressed groups while demeaning other groups who are percieved as prividleged. Its all belief and not based in reality.

Its all divisive and promotes the exact opposite of what the ideologues claim about equality. It creates an unequal society and pits groups against each other. Thats a religion and not reality.

The only groups it pits against one another are right-wing cultural extremists like you vs. everybody else.

 

[BCP1928]

What does Wekk mean lol. I am not sure.

Like I said it depends how you measure the cost of living. Inflation for the 5 years pre covid was hovering around 2.2% on average. Post covid it was sitting at around 6.5% average for the 5 years after. Thats almost a trippling of the cost of living.

Even if we say thats over stating the point, its not made up, the cost of living did go up a lot so there is truth to my claim.

Yes, the cost of living did go up which proves the woke monster exists. Good argument, Steve. Don't forget your US government map of the Mississippi. You might need it later if you want to prove that Tom Sawyer is a real boy.

 

[ralliann]

How does one force a subjective belief onto another? My subjective beliefs are my subjective beliefs, not anyone else's. Theirs are theirs and I can't force them to change.

No, the state is reminding us that LGBT people exist whether you like it or not and they have to be taken as part of reality.

Do you actually think people don't believe these exist? Of course that is not true. So please explain what it is you mean by "they have to be taken as a part of reality"? They exist and that is a reality. None are denying that.

That's not CRT, that's the fascist rhetorical misrepresentation CRT.

Well certainly there has been a misrepresentation of the anti woke crowd. The notion they don't know they exist is nonsense...

The only groups it pits against one another are right-wing cultural extremists like you vs. everybody else.

Seems a pretty extreme view the far left holds..

 

[stevevw]

How does one force a subjective belief onto another? My subjective beliefs are my subjective beliefs, not anyone else's. Theirs are theirs and I can't force them to change.

I guess you first have to recognise what subjective beliefs entail. How people think, how belief is associated with just about everything we do. How we form assumptions based on those beliefs and how we implicitly apply those beliefs.

If everything we do is based on beliefs then how can a society not impose beliefs on each other in one way or another. Heres a fundemental one. Political parties have a worldview of how society should be ordered to make a good society. Not just economically.

So it stands to reason that because those different world views involve ideological beliefs that which ever party gets in or if minor parties gain influence through those parties then there are going to be a significant part of society that will be forced to go along with those beliefs when they are implemented.

We have many examples. When the new identity laws or the SSM laws we have seen many cases of people claiming they are being forced to conform to beliefs they disagree with. We have even seen people suffer repercussions for standing up for those beliefs.

Any immigrants that come to a western nation have to conform to the dominant nations beliefs. Muslims cannot practice Sharia Law, Indigenous peoples cannot practice their traditional laws. Its unreal to say that we can have a complete neutral society when it comes to beliefs. Its usually whoever gets in power gets the right to determine which beliefs should apply.

No, the state is reminding us that LGBT people exist whether you like it or not and they have to be taken as part of reality.

No one is denying that people have different subjective feelings or sense of self different from others. Its that we as a society are making that the reality for everyone.

For example you say that the LGBT identity is part of reality. OK fair enough, but what kind of reality is this. Is it a universal objective reality that everyone can believe in and go along with.

What happens when say that reality is different to another groups reality. Who gets priority because it is impossible to cater to both. I don't think I need to explain what I mean. But what we can say is that the group biological female is also a real identity, perhaps more real thatn any. So what happens when these two identities clash.

Not just clash but actually are damaging to each other. The reason I know its an ideology is by this fact. Thats probably the only fact that comes out of this mess is that is actually causes a mess for society and is not making a better more equal society.

That's not CRT, that's the fascist rhetorical misrepresentation CRT.

I know its not the original and true principle of CRT. Like all good and nobel ideas such as Feminism in its original form, a nobel and justified cause about womens oppression these movements get politicised and its the extreme ends that seem to bubble to the surface over time as we have seen with Feminism.

But as mentioned the best and only way to determine the truth as to what CRT means today is from the literature, from the main scholars, writers who underpin institutions its agents and corporations. We can discover how CRT is applied in reality.

There is plenty of evidence that shows CRT represents what I have said.

The only groups it pits against one another are right-wing cultural extremists like you vs. everybody else.

First I believe it takes two to Tango. The fact is we have a conflict in society an increasing polarisation of beliefs and views even to the point of physical violence. We have not seen such violence and division for a long time. We have had sporadic riots in the past and we had the subversive side of the civil rights movement.

But now we seem to be divided along many lines and not just race but sex, gender, religion, class, and a growing list of other grievance groups. Perhaps this has been building for some time. But both sides are as guilty as each other.

Both sides are increasing their extremist positions. This is how it seems to be evolving. It use to be more bi partisan and parties met in the middle more often. Then for some reason things became partisan. One side would react to the other as though their position was life or death and reply with the same level of extremity which has gradually increased to the point of violence.

I think there are a number of factors such as social media and world events that have made us more anxious and mentally disturbed. It now seems like a fight for their very existence to many. That's what I think the US election is becoming. Its facinating but also scary.

 

[Bradskii]

Like I said it depends how you measure the cost of living. Inflation for the 5 years pre covid was hovering around 2.2% on average.

Whut? Inflation running at 2.2% for 5 years gives you something like an 11% increase in cost of living.

Post covid it was sitting at around 6.5% average for the 5 years after. Thats almost a trippling of the cost of living.

Again, just...what? Even using your figures, prices would rise by around 30%. Not 300%! Which is what tripling would do.

Even if we say thats over stating the point, its not made up, the cost of living did go up a lot so there is truth to my claim.

No, there isn't. There's none. There's no connection with reality at all.

 

[BCP1928]

Do you actually think people don't believe these do not exist? Of course that is not true. So please explain what it is you mean by "they have to be taken as a part of reality"? They exist and that is a reality. None are denying that.

Are you kidding me? Just look around: the consensus of conservative Christians in this forum is that if a person says he's trans, he's either lying for wicked reasons or he is insane, because there is no such thing as trans. Many of the right-winger opinionators you like are of the same opinion.

 

[NxNW]

Maybe someday he'll be making a trillion dollars an hour like they do in Zimbabwe.

View attachment 351009

Time for a Dr Evil meme.

 

[NxNW]

At the end of the day most people including democrates think the economy is not in good shape and thats all that counts when it comes to election time.

If feelings count more than facts, you are correct.

In fact even the dems held a more positive view of the economy under Trump than they do now which peaked at 46% of dems and is now 37%. So maybe the dems have a marketing problem.

Sad but largely true, due to the media endlessly spouting GOP talking points without question.

 

[BCP1928]

If feelings count more than facts, you are correct.

Sad but largely true, due to the media endlessly spouting GOP talking points without question.

But there is some truth to it. The tide is definitely rising, but it is not lifting all the boats, and the traditional working class is affected the most.

 

[BPPLEE]

If feelings count more than facts, you are correct.

Sad but largely true, due to the media endlessly spouting GOP talking points without question.

Due to what people are actually experiencing.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Whut? Inflation running at 2.2% for 5 years gives you something like an 11% increase in cost of living.

11.5% to be precise including "compounding" (1.022^5 = 1.115)

Again, just...what? Even using your figures, prices would rise by around 30%. Not 300%! Which is what tripling would do.

6.5% for 5 years is 37% . (1.065^5 = 1.37)

More obvious to the disconnection from reality of that claim is that there hasn't been 5 years since COVID yet. In fact the first known case in China was less than 5 years ago. Depending on how you define "since COVID", it is currently 3-4 years "since COVID".

No, there isn't. There's none. There's no connection with reality at all.

Nope, no connection.

 

[stevevw]

Whut? Inflation running at 2.2% for 5 years gives you something like an 11% increase in cost of living.

I meant an average of 2,2%. Some years were 2.1% and others 2.3% but an average of 2.2% compared to post covid of an average of 6.5% where some years were 6% qnd other years 7%. .

Again, just...what? Even using your figures, prices would rise by around 30%. Not 300%! Which is what tripling would do.

If the average is 2.2% and it rose to an average of 6.5% then its trippling the inflation rate. So prices will have gone up 3 times as much as it did before covid. We are talking about the cost of living not the cost of individual items.

No, there isn't. There's none. There's no connection with reality at all.

Are you serious. Are you saying that priceses have not gone up disproportionally after covid compared to before. We did have inflation rates at between 7 and 9% so that proves prices went up more than normal. This is well acknowledged.