Guilt

[StaySalty]

No one enjoys this feeling. Is guilt a lack of faith??

I know that once we are Christians, we should avoid sin. But, even Paul struggled with this. According to 1 John 1:9, we have confidence that God has forgiven us, and therefore we shouldn't hold on to guilt, right? We have been (and currently are being) redeemed by the blood of Christ, and this is NOT from ourselves, it is the GIFT of God. Not by works, so we can't boast.

Well, I hate guilt. I hate the feeling that I wish I could take back a few weeks, and yet I can't. Worse yet, I hate the feeling of others loosing respect for me because they thought I was flawless and then discovered a flaw.

We aren't suppose to feel guilty, but rejoice in our redemption, right?

 

[thewordcoza]

I know that once we are Christians, we should avoid sin. But, even Paul struggled with this.

I assume you are refering to Romans 7: 22-25. I regard Andrew Wommack to have the deepest revelation regarding Romans that I have ever heard. I attach below for your reference his notes (published for free on the internet). I now think differently regarding old and new nature.

Romans 7:24

O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Note 1 at Rom. 7:24: Paul was not describing his spiritual condition when he said, "O wretched man that I am!" He was speaking of his flesh (see note 3 at Rom. 7:18, p. 790). He made this distinction clear in verse 18 when he said, "I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) dwelleth no good thing." So, as explained in note 1 at Romans 7:15, page 789, Paul was describing the absolute wretchedness of his flesh.

Note 2 at Rom. 7:24: In context, Paul is summarizing his statements from verses 14 through 23. He didn't say, "who shall deliver me from this death," for the Christian has already been delivered from death that is the wage of sin (see note 3 at Rom. 6:23, p. 784). He made special mention of the body of this death.

The terminology "the body of this death" corresponds to what Paul called "the body of sin" in Romans 6:6. He was not speaking of the sin nature itself, for a Christian no longer has a sin nature (see note 8 at Rom. 6:6, p. 778), but he is rather speaking of the "old man" or the lingering influence of the sin nature that still exerts itself through the unrenewed mind.

So, death, or the old man, is gone but the body that it left behind (i.e. the thoughts, attitudes, and emotions) still poses a problem to the Christian. How do we overcome this flesh (see note 3 at Rom. 7:18, p. 790)? The answer is stated in verse 25 and then explained in Romans 8.

Once we realize that we now have a new nature in Christ it is easier than when we believe we are wicked in nature. Once we believe that when we failed that the price for failure has been paid close to two thousand years ago, we are encouraged to repent, confess and go on. God does not think about our sins, He chose not to. If the enemy is able to get us to focus on ourselves and our failures he prevents us from getting up and going on. So do not camp next to your mistakes, keep in your sight Jesus. Do not look where you walked, walk where you look.

 

[StaySalty]

Thanks alot thewordcoza! I really enjoyed your post.

 

[SoulFly51]

Is guilt a lack of faith? Absolutely not, the right kind of guilt proves that you have faith!

Guilt is not always bad if we are guilty about the right things. Guilt and sorrow are God's ways of disciplining and molding us into what He wants us to be. Once again - it is very important that our guilt not be worldly guilt, but Godly guilt. We should be guilty because we have offended God. That type of guilt and sorrow is justified.

Consider Paul's first letter to the church in Corinth. Paul's letter made these brothers and sisters feel guilty about what they had been practicing in that congregation and the immorality among them. He made them feel bad. Now lets take a look at his second letter to them where he explains what happened because they felt bad. Remember, the Greek definition of the word used for "repent" means "to change." When Repentance is mentioned, thing of it as making a change - not just saying your sorry.

2 Corinthians 7:8-11 "Even if I caused you sorrow by my (first) letter, I do not regret it. Though I did regret it - I see that my letter hurt you, but only for a little while - yet now I am happy, not because you were made sorry, but because your sorrow led you to repentance (or, your guilt leads you to change). For you became sorrowful as God intended and so were not harmed in any way by us. Godly sorrow brings repentance (or, Godly guilt brings change - and look where it leads ) that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death. See what this godly sorrow has produced in you: what earnestness, what eagerness to clear yourselves, what indignation, what alarm, what longing, what concern, what readiness to see justice done."

Godly sorrow brings repentance - wordly sorrow brings death. Try to discern what type of sorrow you are experiance in order to determine whether it is from God or not. Consider also - it is only after repentance that there are not regrets.

If you are still feeling guilty for past sins, have you truly repented of them and changed your ways? If you have, there should be no feeling of regret because "Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret." You might ask yourself, "Have I truly changed?"

If this guilt proves to be from God, rejoice in your sufferings for the Savior and count yourself blessed that God has seen fit to discipline you, His child.

I'll leave you with the words of Jesus: Revelation 3:19 "Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest and repent."

God Bless!

 

[brotherjim]

. . . According to 1 John 1:9, we have confidence that God has forgiven us, and therefore we shouldn't hold on to guilt, right? We have been (and currently are being) redeemed by the blood of Christ, and this is NOT from ourselves, it is the GIFT of God. Not by works, so we can't boast.

Dear Salty,

I was so greatly grieved in my spirit when I first saw your post a day or two ago, and have been again several times since as the Lord brought you to my mind. It is so tragic that the church today has lost some very basic teachings of the Christian faith. No dubt your dilemna is a common one today.

I have some answers for you, but they are not of the type that would win you as my friend. The eternally profitable Truths of God, as we should suspect when we read such passages as John Chap. 6, are difficult to entreat, as they attempt to peel back the layers of hardness and protection we have formed over our heart through the years since being born-again (I am assuming that you are a born-again [Evang./charis.] Christian).

Recall, too, Paul stating how the more he Loved his "children," the less he was loved by them. As human beings, we are far more comfortable reclining in the shade of darkness than we are being blinded by the brilliance of God's Light.

In that which I quote you on above, there are some basic flaws in your understanding--and it's not your fault, for the traditional teachings of the church have beguiled you--and many others--with them.

Firstly, the Holy Bible is not just one great boig book written to all, for all. It is, as you likely know, a compilation of both "books" and letters (epistles). The latter were often very intimate in nature, written by, as example, Paul to his disciple Timothy, or by John to "my dear children" (1 Jn. 2:1). It is error for a Christian to believe that what was spoken by John to one of his "dear children," applies to all Christians.

When forming doctrine, each Book and Epistle of the Bible must first be considered as to who wrote it, and to whom. Then throughout the passages, we must look for additional "qualifiers," for instance, that tell us specifically to whom a promise applies.

Well, this is already getting too long, so to be brief: the promise of 1 John 1:9 that you quote, is a promise given only to those who qualify as a disciple of the Apostles (as compared to someone just under the tutorage of the mere "ten thousand instructors of Christ"). These (John's my little children) are Christians who continued on after the New Birth, allowing God to perfect them in His Love (1 Jn. 2:3-5), and who as a result live in obedience to the Commandments, who walk fully in the Light (as compared to just self-justifying remaining sins).

For others, more applicable is the passage of Hebrews 10:26-29, I'm truly very sorrowed to say (and not in any way said in condemnation and judgment: it's a cruel fact of life and of the church). Incidently, the word unholy in verse 29 is better translated "common."

Over on the Baptist/Anabaptist denomination sub-group, if you scroll back to maybe Page 2 or 3 of the menu over there, you will find a thread entitled "The Law," by someone like "Illoaic" or some similar name. You will find a few posts by me on there that further explain the above.

People often ask why God allowed Lucifer to live. They don't understand that every Kingdom, earthly or otherwise, requires Laws that its inhabitants must submit to, and penalties if those Laws are broken so that people have a motive to obey. Well, Satan, as well as disease and poverty and even the guilt you, SS, are experiencing, are allowed by God to exist and continue as God's "police force": that which was intended to drive us back to the foot of the Cross time and time again, bringing us to our knees as a balling baby in total need of that which only God can truly, lastingly, and totally supply.

It takes a good half dozen or more "mountaintop" experiences of total brokenmness at the foot of the Cross, and obtaining of the subsequent Grace waiting for us, before we become one of the Apostes' "little children," and before the promise of 1 John 1:9 continues to apply (kindly notice the qualifier in v. 7: "if we walk. . . .").

"I must [further] decrease; He must [further] increase."

The person who told you that eternal Life can be had by any lesser way, lied to you, just as someone told them the same lie. Paul warned of this in 2 Cor 11, him even worried that his own "children" might still be likewise "beguiled" (KJV)--and they even had the advantage of having been told the truth from the beginning. So for us today, how great is the chance we will obtain these things?

"And who is sufficient for these things?"

But the Good News: ". . . He giveth more Grace." "Just" receive it.

Not the enemy, so please don't kill the "prophet," brotherjim at mail dot com

 

[SoulFly51]

A wise and well thought out post. Thanks jim.

 

[brotherjim]

A wise and well thought out post. Thanks jim.

Well PtL (2 Cor 9:12).

And you're welcome, Wes, on behalf of Jesus. (You see, it was not thought out at all, other than praying in the day or so prior that it would end up containing the correct message. I don't know if you can receive this, but I claim to write/speak prophetically, not fore- but forthtelling. I sit down without premeditation, and then just start typing, not even stopping to think about anything. It just flows out without effort from start to finish (if something gets very long I may have to pause once or twice very briefly to look to Heaven again). So if there is any wisdom in it, it is of course God's and not mine--neither is this said of false humility but just matter-of-factly (or so I allege; truly).

If you want to learn more, there is a website by a Messianic Jew, Art Katz, at www.benisrael.org, whereupon he has posted more thorough explanations of the prophetic gift. If your theology doesn't buy it, that's okay and I understand. I just wanted to give credit where it truly alone is due. (And btw, I believe such a methodology should be the norm for every born-again believer in Christ Jesus.)

But each must decide these things for their own selves, and always sift, sift and sift in the Name of Christ Jesus the Lord.

"Grace and Peace be multiplied onto you," Wes, jim

 

[BlessedVegan]

Why are we not supposed to feel guilt or regret? Even if we are saved and have turned form our bad behaviour..it is only right to be saddened by the problems of our previous life. I don't understand where you get the idea that we aren't supposed to feel this?
PS..I'm new to this so I might be missing something obvious that shows we shouldn't feel this.

 

[brotherjim]

Why are we not supposed to feel guilt or regret?. . .

Hi, Vegan.

(Btw, I'm mostly a vegetarian myself [lacto-ova, though].)

Vegan, you're only a believer for 3 months, so perhaps you have not yet had the experience of returning like a dog to your previous "vomit" (KJV)--for some of us we have done this time and time again. It's like being a grandparent. If you are not, you do not have a clue as to what it is like. I prayerfully hope this does not come across at all as condescending, as it's just a fact of life. The Christian walk is one of many peaks and valleys, many "fiery trials" (KJV; 1 Peter) that we often fail to correctly maneuver through according to God's Holy Word. If you want, ask Him and He'll gladly plunge you into one (or just ask for Wisdom according to the Commandment of James 1--same thing).

Praising God that you were found of Him, Vegan, and may He continue to bless you, even above what you can think to ask, in Jesus' Name, amen.

bj

----------
Whoever: and we are never alone in our vomit--Isaiah 43:24

 

[BlessedVegan]

Brother Jim maybe you misunderstood me. I'm not meaning that once you know what is wrong, you'll never screw up. On the contrary I mess up all the time. What I mean is, why do people think it's wrong to feel guilty over our past mistakes? This seems like the natural thing to feel when you mess up. As the OP said "We aren't suppose to feel guilty, but rejoice in our redemption, right?". Why does he think this?
PS..i'ts cool your a fellow veggie

 

[StaySalty]

BlessedVegan,

Thanks for your questions, let me explain.

Upon my first post, I had just recently sinned (as you might have noticed). I posted about guilt, because I was feeling pretty rotten at the time, even though I had repented for what I had done. Which is why I didn't quite understand why I felt, worried (which is a better term than guilty, and more accurate to my feelings at the time). I accepted Christ into my life as a child, and now I am pursueing a deeper relationship with Him.

Now that I can think more clearly, the feelings that I had were more like paranoia. I feared what God was going to allow to happen to me. That He might rain down some consequences that I am not prepared to handle, which of course He's entitled to since I did violate His law. I had repented, and gotten rid of the source of temptation leading me into sin, attended Bible Study, and prayed with a friend, yet I still feared God's anger or possible indifference towards my repentance, and that He was determinded to smash me this time.

Which is why I questioned about our redemption. The sacrifice of Christ is powerful. It did what no sacrifice or burnt offering could ever do.

5Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: “Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me; 6with burnt offerings and sin offerings you were not pleased. 7Then I said, ‘Here I am–it is written about me in the scroll– I have come to do your will, O God.’ ”
Hebrews 10:5-7

And faith in His sacrifice is what saves us, not our flawless obedience to God's Law (a human impossibility).

I am very familiar with the passages of "falling back" and returning to vomit, etc. However, I am also familiar with passages of being "sealed with the Holy Spirit for the day of redemption (Ephesians 4:30) and God remaining faithful to us, since He cannot deny Himself (2 Timothy 2:13) and Christ blood purifying us from all sin (1 John 1:7).

The enemy is the accuser of the brothern (Revelation 12:10). He desires us to forget passages like Romans 8:1 and Romans 8:15-17 and to fear.

15For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.” 16The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. 17Now if we are children, then we are heirs–heirs of God and coheirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

Romans 8:15-17


Simply put, it was a spiritual attack.

I am forgiven, and I praise God for it (a God who is not angry, but loves me).

 

[StaySalty]

brotherjim,

Thanks for responding. Overall, I agree with your post, however there are some points you make that I see differently.

You mentioned that we need to read things in context, and that John was refering to disciples of apostles. I don't believe the apostles had or desired disciples. Consider Paul in

4For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not mere men? 5What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe–as the Lord has assigned to each his task. 6I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God made it grow. 7So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow.
1 Corinthians 3:4-7


I don't think you meant to, but some of your comments sounded a bit elitist. I'm not calling you that, I'm just referring to how you said them, like concerning New Testament writings that they weren't written for everyone.

I believe that the Word of God is spiritually discerning, as it says it is.

I believe scripture when it says "Abraham BELIEVED God and it was credited to Him as righteousness. Yes, our beliefs and actions must work together, but our salvation is not dependent on our flawless obedience to remain in the Light, but on our faith in the one who brought us near (who were far away)

I believe that God is love.

I believe in Hosea 6:6
For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings.

I believe that the scriptures Hebrews 10:26-29 apply to those who willingly choose to LIVE a sinful life before God, unrepentant, and find Christ sacrifice to be a free pass for sin. I do not believe this passage applies to believers in Christ who, though imperfect, repent and seek God's face. Remember David, a man after God's own heart, and his adultry. Also, consider how "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated", and why? It was because he didn't value the things of God and Jacob, though dishonest, did.

As far as hearing from God, and writing what comes to you, that is between you and God. I don't believe that the relationship every believer has with God, nor do I believe it should be. We all have gifts of the Spirit, and they aren't all prophecy. But as scripture says "By their fruit, you will know them" (Matthew 7:16)

God bless.

 

[Wakeup2god]

Guilt or Conviction?

There's a difference. 'There is therfor now no condemnation for those who are in Christ'. Firstly, are you in Christ? Ok, if your answer is yes then be prepared to be condemned by the the enemy. He will try to heap guilt upon you for all the sin you've commited and for every mistake you make from now on. Have you repented before God? If so then God's dealt with it and the mud doesn't stick anymore. We have to remind the enemy of who we are in Christ. Use scriptures like Jesus did when He was tempted by satan, renew your mind with the word of God.

Now with conviction you may feel guilty but as the Holy Spirit convicts He also guides and makes a way for your sin to be dealt with. Conviction is good, its positive proof that the Lord is doing a work in you and that He's interested in every aspect and moment of your life. He wants to take us from Holy to Holy. As He searches our hearts he sometimes opens up rooms that have been closed for a long time thus convicting us in that area. Light cannot fellowship with darkness.

Just ask yourself is it conviction ir condemnation then consult the bible (Gods word) regarding the matter at hand.

Be blessed

 

[IDS]

I broke my leg the other day
And instantly began to pray

It sure does hurt an awful lot
Too little faith I guess I've got

Each limping step is agonizing
Perfect christians I am patronizing

A crutch would help to ease the pain
Or help from someone specially trained

But I dare not let others see
I have to protect my testimony

How would it look if I trusted in man
Instead of GOD and His Master plan

Faith trusts GOD in all circumstance
Sure wish I hadn't fallen from that branch


.....peace.....





Sometimes when you act like a nut
You fall to the ground bruised and cut

Never understanding it silently cries
Wounded and broken the acorn dies

Unnoticed the acorn is trampled down
Into the cold unsympathetic ground

Something wondrous begins to take place
Small roots spring out reaching for grace

Unseen hands caress and embrace
Invisible healing is taking place

The water of life is its nourishment
In this dark world of banishment

Quietly the nut is being transformed
As potter's clay it is being re-formed

A tender seedling finally breaks thru
Into a world that is bright and new

As more of GOD's will and heart it knows
The seedling gets stronger as it grows

From the acorn came an oak tree what a story to tell
Who would have expected this from some nut who fell


.....peace.....



guilt - grace = unforgiveness


Psalm 32:5 I acknowledged my sin unto thee and mine iniquities have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin.


A very small child does something she knows she is not supposed to do. When confronted she confesses with tears. Not out of fear but sorrow that the one she loves is hurt and angry. The father's love is far greater than the little one's offense. He gently picks her up and holds her close. A tear slips from the father's eye. When the little one calms the father talks. Reassured she says she is sorry. A hug and a kiss and she climbs down to play.


Guilt holds on to the offense. Hides it. Runs from the Father. Guilt remains until grace removes.


G od

R estoring

A nd

C leansing

E ntirely


Many years ago I greatly sinned. The guilt was overwhelming. Although I prayed and knew I was forgiven the feeling of guilt hung heavily upon me.

One day I was hitch-hiking and I began (as usual) to talk about the Lord. The young man said he had been thinking about getting saved. When the ride ended we prayed and he asked Jesus into his heart.

Then, and only then, did I know that I had been forgiven. Or that I felt I had been forgiven. The gift of forgiveness had always been present. But I didn't deserve it. I was unworthy. My sin was so bad. It was only when my focus got off me and onto the heart of GOD that my experience (what I felt) matched His reality (what He felt).


.....peace.....

 

[brotherjim]

Whoever,

I am very familiar with the passages of "falling back" and returning to vomit, etc. However, I am also familiar with passages of being "sealed with the Holy Spirit for the day of redemption (Ephesians 4:30)

I have never questioned the OSAS view of Ephesians 4:30 and believe it likely says what it seems to say. I believe the written Word gives much evidence indicating the liklihood that someone who was born-again will probably get to await Redemption/Judgment Day in Paradise and not hell, and regardless of their obedience or lack thereof after conversion.

(But, too, OSAS vs. cond. sec. is something to be confined to local congregations and their denominations. God has made no one judge of the whole church, despite popular thinking and insistences to the contrary. I never challenge the individually held doctrines of such things as OSAS or raptures or the other contoversies of the church, like Paul, being "all things to all men, in the hope I might save some.")

My post, however, was not about this dispensation, but the next, and what will happen when the New Heaven is brought down, and only those who lived in obedience to God's NT Commandments of Love and Faith--by Grace and Spirit only--will be allowed entrance and therefore access to the Tree of Life. Kindly see Rev. 22:14.

"Blessed are those who have part in the first resurrection."

And faith in His sacrifice is what saves us, not our flawless obedience to God's Law (a human impossibility).

I cannot help but wonder if this statement I quote above was in response to my earlier post. Regardless, since it is a common error made in response to the apostolic Gospel of Jesus, it is worth addressing.

It is error to believe that "eternal" salvation ("Jesus, the Author of eternal salvation to all those who obey Him") is based upon "our flawless obedience." Jesus, after all, was the only flawless Man (Acts 2) to live.

Eternal salvation is promised many places in the Holy Scriptures, and all the promises nearly always, if not always, come with qualifiers, such indicating who the promises are given to. A doctrine of eternal salvation, then, is arrived at, in part, by assembling all Scriptures pertinent to it, and thereby gathering all qualifiers telling of God's requirements for it, and then concluding what is needed.

According to the Holy Word (not man's opinions, including of course mine) the promises of eternal Life are only given to those who have allowed God, by Grace and His Spirit only ("the flesh profits nothing"), to perfect His Love in them, whereby they will then be found living in obedience to the NT Commandments of Love and Faith. It is not the Christian who is themselves "flawless," it is the Grace of God's Love which is perfect.

So when we read 1 John 2:3-5 or Luke 10:25-28, for example, we find a litmus test warning us who were born-again, that if we are not living obedient to the Commandments: then we have not been perfected by further Grace in God's Love; then we do not really know the true Jesus of the Bible as we had assumed (but rather only a fantasy concoction of Him); then we no longer remain in Christ as we perhaps once did (not that we are perhaps still not sealed until the Day we will be redeemed and judged and dealt with accordingly). Such passages leave no room for error or ambiguity--it's too important.

Finally, while only time and God's allotment of it to each of us individually, will determine whether we live long enough to be perfected in God's Love, what is required for eternal Life, then, is whether we have totally committed in the Law of our mind (Rom. 7:22, 25) to allowing God/Grace to do what is required to lead us on to that perfection, or, on the other hand, whether we will just self-justify our sins, count Jesus' Blood as a "common" and frequent-to-be-used thing (Heb. 10:29), bury our head in the sand to the sins/idols/impurities which remain in the heart of every Christian until specifically and miraculously and most often instantly removed,--.

But, quite sorrowfully, "narrow is the Way, and few there be," brotherjim


Edit+: Perhaps also see on the Theolgy section, Soteriology sub-section, the thread by me, "Theology."

 

[brotherjim]

1 John 4:16-18:

"And we have known and believed the Love that God has to us. God is Love; and he that dwells in Love remains in God, and God in him.

"Herein is Love made perfect with us, that we may have boldness in the Day of Judgment: because as He is [perfect in Love], so are we in this world [if indeed we are].

"There is no fear in Love; but perfect Love casts out fear: because fear has torment. He that fears [the Day of Judgment] is not made perfect in Love."

 

[dave74]

i dont think guilt is a lack of faith at all. guilt is the presence of faith. i think guilt is what helps us recognize our faults and speak of them. however guilt is also a double edged sword it can also be used to attempt to blackmail and hurt someone.

 

[brotherjim]

. . . You mentioned that we need to read things in context, and that John was refering to disciples of apostles. I don't believe the apostles had or desired disciples. . . .

"For I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. For I have betrothed you. . . ." 2 Cor. 11:2

"My little children. . . ." 1 Jn. 2:1, etc. (Actually, John was not referring "to disciples of Apostles" [quoted from above], but only his own "children," only the disciple he brought into the body and was head over--he would not have written so intimately to the disciples of other Apostles.)

"Paul . . . to Titus, mine own son. . . ." Titus 1:1, 4

"Paul . . . to Timothy, my true son. . . ." 1 Tim 1:1, 2

 

[brotherjim]

P.S. Found another one (thanks to [God and] a dear brother on another channel):

"I [Paul] have not written these things to shame you, but as my beloved children I warn you . . . for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the Gospel." 1 Cor. 4:14, 15b

 

[StaySalty]

not to get off of the topic of guilt but in response to this and other posts...

P.S. Found another one (thanks to [God and] a dear brother on another channel):

"I [Paul] have not written these things to shame you, but as my beloved children I warn you . . . for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the Gospel." 1 Cor. 4:14, 15b

not to get off of the topic of guilt but...

Yes, Paul was in leadership position, but to hint that this made those under Him "his" disciples, is to take glory from our Lord Jesus Christ. Apart from Christ, Paul is Saul, and persecuting his "beloved children"

Just as we refer to overseers as pastors, priests, fathers, bishops, etc., that never ever elevates them to the point of them having their own disciples. That, would be a cult, not a Church.

Paul had flaws, was he telling us to follow in his folly also then? Christ is flawless, and is why God said “This is my Son, whom I love; with Him I am well pleased. Listen to Him!”

I'm sure if Paul or Peter were alive, and we asked "where are your disciples" they would consider it almost blashphemous.