Grounds for divorce

[seebs]

If you are wondering whether something is grounds for divorce, the chances are that it is not.

To ask "is this grounds for divorce" is implicitly to say "I wish to divorce, but I don't want it to be my fault". Don't go there. To wish to divorce is to commit adultery; it is to reject the bond of marriage, to break the commitment once made.

There may come a time when you realize that you have already been divorced. There may come a time when all your desire to save your marriage cannot accomplish that thing, and there is nothing left but to sign the paper.

But to wish to divorce is still wrong.

If you are capable of considering whether or not something is sufficient to justify a divorce, then it is not. If you would prefer something else to this marriage, then you will have to tough it out. If you find yourself reviewing the Law looking for "grounds" or "justification", then you are without justification.

This does not mean that everyone who divorces is bad, or even at fault.

Let me give you an analogy. Imagine, if you will, that we grant for the sake of argument that killing in self-defense is not murder.

Looking for grounds for divorce is like making a list of people you hate, then checking to see whether any of them might constitute a threat, so you can kill them.

 

[Grishnak]

This is very interesting.

Similar to Crazy Liz' thoughts, I believe.

Im not sure I agree 100% tho.
Someone may really want and need to be out of a horrific marriage for whatever reason, but not be sure if they have biblical grounds and just be wanting to be absolutely sure that they arent offending God.

Where I will agree is that if a person is just wanting out for trivial reasons and then says see that the unbeliever is permitted to leave, so they make life unbearable for them so the person does leave or neglects them in order to cause them to cheat.

God knows the heart.

 

[seebs]

I hink the solution is not to try to find "grounds" for divorce, but to trust God. God will not turn from you even if you are wrong.

God will mourn with you the loss of your marriage. The question of "fault" simply isn't that important. You may generally rest assured that there were things you didn't do right, and that God forgives you anyway, whether or not you end up making things work out.

My marriage is stable and happy. This doesn't mean I haven't screwed things up.

 

[Grishnak]

I hink the solution is not to try to find "grounds" for divorce, but to trust God. God will not turn from you even if you are wrong.

I predict a lot of arguing on this one

Some here have voiced over and again how remarriage is perpetual sin, so in essence they believe God will indeed have to turn from this person over this non-existant Perma-Sin.

(hey, do I get the credit for making up a new word there )

 

[seebs]

Well, as a second husband, I obviously have strong opinions on this.

I have the additional benefit that I can testify directly on point: Apparently, whether or not I was right to come to this situation, now that I am here, keeping my promises is the thing God wants of me.

Any complaints should be filed with my immediate supervisor. I believe they can be delivered in writing by shoving them in cracks in a wall in Jerusalem, but He also takes prayers.

 

[goldenviolet]

i have to thrown this in here:

• what if i am married/unequally joked with a very abusive person?
• what if i am married to a person, who i find out is molesting our children?

(just for you not to worry: my hubby is a good man/far from either)

 

[seebs]

i have to thrown this in here:

• what if i am married/unequally joked with a very abusive person?
• what if i am married to a person, who i find out is molesting our children?

(just for you not to worry: my hubby is a good man/far from either)

I would say that in either circumstance, it would be obligatory to leave the sham marriage.

In other words... If you're sitting around saying "I am so bored with Jim, he's just not, you know, doing it for me anymore", and this motivates you to start looking for reasons, then the discovery that he's molesting the kids does not make you justified or okay; it does not change that you decided to break out of the vows.

But that doesn't mean you should stay; it just means that sometimes both parties are wrong.

 

[Crazy Liz]

i have to thrown this in here:

• what if i am married/unequally joked with a very abusive person?
• what if i am married to a person, who i find out is molesting our children?

(just for you not to worry: my hubby is a good man/far from either)

I agree with Seebs. There are two ways to characterize a divorce in cases like this. Seebs has said at some point the marriage is over and the paperwork just acknowledges the fact. While I don't think that's wrong, I think that framework for thinking can lead to wrong rationalizations, too:

"He doesn't treat me the way I want to be treated. This isn't a real marriage. A real husband would treat me better. I could find a better husband who would be a real husband to me. This is no marriage. Time to file the paperwork."

I've heard this kind of rationalization as often or more often than I've heard rationalizations about "grounds" for divorce.

That's why I prefer asking the Bonhofferian question, "Must I divorce?" rather than "May I divorce?" When the question is asked this way, I think the "perma-sin" problem is avoided without treating divorce as an option and without rationalizations.

 

[Crazy Liz]

I predict a lot of arguing on this one

Some here have voiced over and again how remarriage is perpetual sin, so in essence they believe God will indeed have to turn from this person over this non-existant Perma-Sin.

(hey, do I get the credit for making up a new word there )

I think the issue of "perma-sin" (very descriptive term, BTW!) is not something I'm going to argue about in this thread. If the issue comes up again, I'm ready, willing and able, but I don't think it's directly related to the topic of this thread.

Besides, so far it looks like those posting here all agree the idea of "perma-sin" is wrong, so there's no need for us all to pat each other on the back for agreeing with each other.

 

[Grishnak]

That's why I prefer asking the Bonhofferian question, "Must I divorce?" rather than "May I divorce?" When the question is asked this way, I think the "perma-sin" problem is avoided without treating divorce as an option and without rationalizations.

I think there still lies an issue of interpretation of ''must'' and ''may'' with the individual tho.

In my previous marriage there were many, christians and non, who were telling me I was crazy and i needed to divorce before she even went so far as to try to kill me for the death benefits or something.

In thier minds, seeing what she put me through, they would have said I ''must'' divorce, if only for my safety.
In my opinion at that point, only adultery was sufficient for divorce and in my irrational state of mind, I was willing to die before divorcing over anything less than adultery.

When some young women get to a point where they would ask ''may I divorce'' some of us might be saying ''yeah, you MUST and should have ten years before the beatings started".

 

[babyangel]

This is very interesting.

Similar to Crazy Liz' thoughts, I believe.

Im not sure I agree 100% tho.
Someone may really want and need to be out of a horrific marriage for whatever reason, but not be sure if they have biblical grounds and just be wanting to be absolutely sure that they arent offending God.

Where I will agree is that if a person is just wanting out for trivial reasons and then says see that the unbeliever is permitted to leave, so they make life unbearable for them so the person does leave or neglects them in order to cause them to cheat.

God knows the heart.

I am with Grishnak. Had I known the bible before I got married in the first place maybe I would have seen signs, or maybe I would have been pickier, I do not know this though, because my husband was very calm and cool and helpful and sweet and kind before marriage, we went out 5 years before marriage. But anyways, here I am today not sure if I can divorce without sinning on my part, legally I know I can take him to the cleaners, as I have seen in the past I know I can divorce him, but since God has come into my life all these questions I have been having keep going through my mind. I just hate the bad feelings that it all causes to go through my mind. I dont believe I am bad for wanting a divorce for all the terrible things he has done and said, but I feel awful for the things I think about him, not because of what he did to me, but because I feel stuck. Yea I was one of those people that sat there and said man if he would just cheat on me things would be simpler. But then I thought about it, and was I any better holding on for almost a year in hopes of that? I dont think I was. Now I just hold on because I felt at least if he divorced me then I would be completly innocent of any wrong doing, I mean I cant control him divorcing me, and the only reason he said he would is so he could go have sex. So back to the original post. If I am sitting here today wondering if I have biblical grounds for divorce. I know I do according to the law of the land which is inspired by the bible. If we are being pushed to believe that the only grounds for divorce is fornication, then anything else including abuse would have anyone asking do I have grounds and therefore not being able to justify a divorce because we are asking about it. And again I ask, what makes a person a non believer? I mean doesnt a mans/womans actions in life make them a believer or non believer? Can you tell me that a person could act so horribly in life and claim to be a believer, and turn around and live a life of abuse, use of drugs, porn etc?

 

[seebs]

This is a very good point. I think the problem here is that it ends up being a heart issue.

You should not want to divorce, and looking for "justification" won't help that. You may find that you do not want to divorce, but that you want to die even less. Then I think you probably "must".

But yeah, the terminology can be a problem.

The essential issue, I think, is that any time we try to nail down a set of rules, saying "divorce is permissible if X, but not if Y", we invite abuse; people divorcing for reasons other than X, using X as an excuse.

The world is full of happily married people who decided that adultery was not sufficient reason to divorce. There have been cases of an abusive spouse learning better.

In other words... There are times when something that might demonstrate that it's time to get out is, in fact, not really a good reason to get divorced. There are other times when something which seems trivial makes it clear that the party's over.

A particular danger is that rules for when we should accept someone's decision to get divorced end up being turned into a demand that they must get divorced; lots of people on second marriages have seen this.

 

[SavedByTheShoes]

divorce depends on personal time with god, you need to pray and if you feel god belive you should stay, they you should stay...

marriage started out all god but my dads worked changed who he was. my mom got srong into her faith and my dad was mad that my mom loved god more than him. eventually marriage went on and my dad beat my brother for the frist 20 years of his life. 3 years ago we found out that my dad had been cheating on my mom with tons of women since they've been married.

this really torn me apart and even more so that my mom felt god wanted her to stay. now my dad is a christain! he is slow to change but he has stoped beating and cheating. sometimes we have to stay in these rough times through marriage because god has an altament plan. other times it means its time to leave.

 

[churl]

All very intersting points ....
I am divorced (sorry seebs) due to alcoholism, drug use, violence and abuse. There was NO WAY that God wanted me or my children to stay in an abusive relationship - NO WAY PERIOD!!! I am must happier, healthier, and safer away from him - End of Story! Mine was not an issue if "May I divorce", but "I MUST divorce".

And another point to add to this discussion - the church does give one the opportunity to apply for annulment. An annulment states that at the time the marriage vows were spoken, a sacramental union did not take place... and in my case, due to the drug and alcohol use, my husband was not able to commit to the vows of marraige.

Will God now punish me for this? For leaving my husband and seeking annulment?

 

[Grishnak]

The essential issue, I think, is that any time we try to nail down a set of rules, saying "divorce is permissible if X, but not if Y", we invite abuse; people divorcing for reasons other than X, using X as an excuse.

agreed.
the abuse of Deut 24:1 by the Jews pretty much confirm this type of attitude.

I honestly think thats why there is a bit of vagueness about it all in the NT (once ALL of scripture is taken into account and not just those 4 passages everyone likes to jam down our throats ).
Deut 24:1 was brief, but to the point.
The Jews end up going nuts with it and putting away their wives for a badly cooked meal or something.

If we have no absolute set of rules for divorce, but Jesus shows us that marriages staying together is ALWAYS the best way, then we are left only divorcing when there is no other choice (whatever the individual case may be.....abuse, neglect, etc)

 

[Grishnak]

All very intersting points ....
I am divorced (sorry seebs) due to alcoholism, drug use, violence and abuse. There was NO WAY that God wanted me or my children to stay in an abusive relationship - NO WAY PERIOD!!! I am must happier, healthier, and safer away from him - End of Story! Mine was not an issue if "May I divorce", but "I MUST divorce".

And another point to add to this discussion - the church does give one the opportunity to apply for annulment. An annulment states that at the time the marriage vows were spoken, a sacramental union did not take place... and in my case, due to the drug and alcohol use, my husband was not able to commit to the vows of marraige.

Will God now punish me for this? For leaving my husband and seeking annulment?

This is also a very interesting concept.

I dont like the idea in many cases as I can see how it might be easily abused, but having been married to 2 women who I KNOW didnt ever mean what they said when they were making their ''vows'', and knowing that God sees the heart....it seems possible that maybe sometimes God HASNT joined together a couple over the intents of one or the other.

I dont mean someone who say just wasnt as into it as the other.
I mean that one person actaully had maliscious intents or wasnt mentally capable of making this commitment (such as being an addict at the time).

Im thanking God that He gave me someone now that I wont ever have to worry about this all again, but thinking about say my sister who married this guy who never really intended on being a ''husband'' to her, I have to wonder, knowing that God DOES know the heart, if He was ever in this union to begin with.

 

[seebs]

I am divorced (sorry seebs)

Don't apologize to me; you haven't harmed me.

Will God now punish me for this? For leaving my husband and seeking annulment?

Well, I dunno. Let's imagine that, to save your attackers time, we just declare a priori that what you did was not lawful.

[bible]Matthew 12:1-8[/bible]

Let's go even further. Let's say that we cede the hypothesized attackers the whole point, and say that you are in some way we do not understand guilty of adultery. Will God punish you?

[bible]John 8:2-11[/bible]

Here, then, is the judgment: You may have broken the Law, but you have not sinned; you have protected one of God's children from harm. If we ignore this, then we reach the entirely similar conclusion: Your sins are forgiven. You are not condemned.

If we grant every point to those who might condemn you, we find that you are nonetheless blameless in the eyes of the Lord. You are justified, you are sanctified, you are purified. You may go in peace; let none condemn you.

And that's granting their points, and I see no reason to do so except for the sake of argument.

 

[babyangel]

When the exception clause first was told to me (about 4 years ago) I was beside myself, I looked everywhere to find any kind of "loophole" just to be right even though at that point it wasnt because I was turning my life to God. I just wanted to do what was right period. It was a long 3 years of continued behavior on my husband part and telling him over and over something has to change, lets get counceling etc. It ened with me telling him I can not live like this. We went from never fighting to the last year of us together fighting everyday because I knew he was doing wrong and I could not keep quiet anymore. I wasnt looking for trouble but I thought it is never going to change if I dont try something. Well it turned out he had to leave for my own safety and peace of mind and for the sanity of the girls because the fighting was really affecting them. The last 9 months that we have been separated I have really grown as a Chrisitian. Rather than looking for an out or looking for loopholes, I turned my life over to God and prayed, and read the bible for what it says and put all the scriptures together. Romans is one of my favorite books because it talks so much about forgiveness. God cant make my husband change, I cant make my husband change, he knows what the problems are and he has not corrected them, so to me that is my answer on my husbands behalf. He wants the cake and eat it to. These are troublesome times for many people in this kind of situation and it is so comforting to have a place like this to come to for support, guidance, and understanding. I thank you all for sharing intimate parts of your lives, and your spiritual guidence.

 

[Grishnak]

But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless

That one alwasy blows me away.
Jesus is defending those who WERE breaking the law, but because of the sincere need, He calls them innocent.

 

[babyangel]

Don't apologize to me; you haven't harmed me.



Well, I dunno. Let's imagine that, to save your attackers time, we just declare a priori that what you did was not lawful.

Matthew 12:1-81 At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn, and to eat. 2 But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day. 3 But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him; 4 How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the showbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests? 5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless? 6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple. 7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless. 8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

Let's go even further. Let's say that we cede the hypothesized attackers the whole point, and say that you are in some way we do not understand guilty of adultery. Will God punish you?

John 8:2-112 And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them. 3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, 4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. 5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou? 6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not. 7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. 8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground. 9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst. 10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? 11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

Here, then, is the judgment: You may have broken the Law, but you have not sinned; you have protected one of God's children from harm. If we ignore this, then we reach the entirely similar conclusion: Your sins are forgiven. You are not condemned.

If we grant every point to those who might condemn you, we find that you are nonetheless blameless in the eyes of the Lord. You are justified, you are sanctified, you are purified. You may go in peace; let none condemn you.

And that's granting their points, and I see no reason to do so except for the sake of argument.

I have another question here I am quite aware and understand I must leave/divorce my husband for the way he has acted. I have not sinned in that sense. Now how does one justify a remarriage? I mean isnt that where the sin comes in, it is not the divorce one is free to divorce, but all those people that teach one must remain single? Is there anything you guys can give me on that one?