Grief: Is it selfish?

Caleb89 · Jan 25, 2007

One of my teachers (who has a Dr. degree in philosophy and a Masters degree in psychology and child development) once told me about a conversation she once had with a friend.

She said her friend asked her this:

If someone points a gun at you and shoots it, and I jump in front of the bullet, am I doing this because I genuinely want to save your life by sacraficing mine or because I selfishly don't want to live life without you in it?

Think about it. When you grieve over someone, are you grieving for them because they are no longer alive or are you grieving for yourself because YOU no longer have that person in your life? They are dead and gone so why would you be grieving for them because they no longer get to be alive on earth?

So, is grief a selfish emotion?

The Nihilist · Jan 25, 2007

Caleb89 said:
One of my teachers (who has a Dr. degree in philosophy and a Masters degree in psychology and child development) once told me about a conversation she once had with a friend.

She said her friend asked her this:

If someone points a gun at you and shoots it, and I jump in front of the bullet, am I doing this because I genuinely want to save your life by sacraficing mine or because I selfishly don't want to live life without you in it?

Think about it. When you grieve over someone, are you grieving for them because they are no longer alive or are you grieving for yourself because YOU no longer have that person in your life? They are dead and gone so why would you be grieving for them because they no longer get to be alive on earth?

So, is grief a selfish emotion?

False dichotomy. It is impossibly to relate to someone except by way of how you know them. I could no longer grieve for someone for a reason other than they will no longer be around than I could grieve for victims of the Hindenburg. The Hindenburg was nasty, but frankly, I don't care at all, and neither do you.

Annoula · Jan 26, 2007

we can't say that it is selfish or that it is not selfish because we don't know the true motives and feelings of the other person.

if we grieve over our own lost then it is selfish in a way.
but if we grieve because we feel sorry that the other person has died then this is not selfish.

just my opinion

Eudaimonist · Jan 26, 2007

Caleb89 said:
I selfishly don't want to live life without you in it?

That would be blessedly selfish. There could be no higher tribute you could offer to your loved one.

Would it really better to say: "Hey, I wouldn't miss you one tiny bit if you died. I jumped in front of a bullet because it was my altruistic duty." I would slap that person in the face.

So, is grief a selfish emotion?

I don't think that emotions qualify as either selfish or unselfish. Only actions do.

eudaimonia,

Mark

MisterS · Jan 26, 2007

Grief, as a rule, cannot be selfish, because Jesus grieved at the grave of his friend Lazarus. Since selfishness is sinful, and Jesus is without sin, then his experiencing grief was not sinful, ergo, not selfish. So, while grief CAN be selfish at times, grief IS not selfish in and of itself.

MisterS · Jan 26, 2007

Eudaimonist said:
That would be blessedly selfish. There could be no higher tribute you could offer to your loved one.

Would it really better to say: "Hey, I wouldn't miss you one tiny bit if you died. I jumped in front of a bullet because it was my altruistic duty." I would slap that person in the face.

I don't think that emotions qualify as either selfish or unselfish. Only actions do.

eudaimonia,

Mark

I disagree entirely with that last statement that emotions cannot be selfish. I can have anger that someone has stolen my seat on the bus; this is sinful anger, even if I do not act on it, because I am selfishly believing that I have a right to sit in that particular seat and the other person doesn't. My anger is selfish in this case. My point is that I have to experience selfishness before I can act on it, and selfishness manifests itself inside me in different emotions.

The Nihilist · Jan 26, 2007

MisterS said:
I disagree entirely with that last statement that emotions cannot be selfish. I can have anger that someone has stolen my seat on the bus; this is sinful anger, even if I do not act on it, because I am selfishly believing that I have a right to sit in that particular seat and the other person doesn't. My anger is selfish in this case. My point is that I have to experience selfishness before I can act on it, and selfishness manifests itself inside me in different emotions.

Wrong. What is selfish is that you thought it was your seat. Your anger is just along for the ride.

Caleb89 · Jan 26, 2007

Eudaimonist said:
That would be blessedly selfish. There could be no higher tribute you could offer to your loved one.

Would it really better to say: "Hey, I wouldn't miss you one tiny bit if you died. I jumped in front of a bullet because it was my altruistic duty." I would slap that person in the face.

I don't think that emotions qualify as either selfish or unselfish. Only actions do.

eudaimonia,

Mark

The WHOLE point of them jumping in front of the bullet is because they WOULD miss you and they would NOT want to live life without you!!!

elman · Jan 26, 2007

Caleb89 said:
One of my teachers (who has a Dr. degree in philosophy and a Masters degree in psychology and child development) once told me about a conversation she once had with a friend.

She said her friend asked her this:

If someone points a gun at you and shoots it, and I jump in front of the bullet, am I doing this because I genuinely want to save your life by sacraficing mine or because I selfishly don't want to live life without you in it?

Think about it. When you grieve over someone, are you grieving for them because they are no longer alive or are you grieving for yourself because YOU no longer have that person in your life? They are dead and gone so why would you be grieving for them because they no longer get to be alive on earth?

So, is grief a selfish emotion?

I think almost nothing is purely one way. We could be sacrificing for another and also trying to keep them alive because it is best for us. I think selfish is not a correct description of wanting someone to be around because we love them.

Morcova · Jan 26, 2007

Selfish or not grief if natural. You can even witness it in the animal kingdom.

Blackguard_ · Jan 27, 2007

caleb89 said:
One of my teachers (who has a Dr. degree in philosophy and a Masters degree in psychology and child development) once told me about a conversation she once had with a friend.

I'm beginning to think advanced Philosophy degrees either fry people's brains or they reach the top and conclude it's mostly BS and spend the rest of their days arguing silly points just for the fun of it/because they can.

Dr. Frybrain's friend said:
If someone points a gun at you and shoots it, and I jump in front of the bullet, am I doing this because I genuinely want to save your life by sacraficing mine or because I selfishly don't want to live life without you in it?

Like recovering philospher said, false dichotomy. You can do both and there's Eudaemonia's counter-example.

Egosim said:
Think about it. When you grieve over someone, are you grieving for them because they are no longer alive or are you grieving for yourself because YOU no longer have that person in your life?

Both? They lost their life, you lost a friend. You can grieve over both.
WHy exactly is it wrong to grieve for selfish reasons anyway? selfish=/=evil.

Or, why do you selfishly eat when you are hungry and drink when you are thirsty you wicked, wicked person? Do you have any hobbies? Guess what you're being when you do them?

Sociopathy said:
They are dead and gone so why would you be grieving for them because they no longer get to be alive on earth?

Well, people tend to die without doing all they would have liked to do for one, you could mourn that say he never got take that trip to Europe or finish his book or something.

You would be griveing because they no longer get to be alive.

By the same logic, it doesn't make sense to grieve over the loss of their company either. I.e. the same "they're dead, forget 'em" attitude.

So, is grief a selfish emotion?

It is if you're an Egoist. BUt yeah, I would say it can have a selfish aspect. But so what? Is the self of no import or something?

It wouldn't say it's a purely selfish act though.

op said:
The WHOLE point of them jumping in front of the bullet is because they WOULD miss you and they would NOT want to live life without you!!!

You're an Egoist aint ya? Eudemonia was simply pointing out a counter-example where somone would jump in front of the bullet without having your selfish reason to do so. If you want us to debate if greif is selfish or not, its not sportmanslike to not let us argue grief (i.e. jumping in front of the bullet) can be motivated by other then selfish reasons.

MisterS · Jan 27, 2007

RecoveringPhilosopher said:
Wrong. What is selfish is that you thought it was your seat. Your anger is just along for the ride.

No, my anger is not simply "along for the ride." My anger is selfish anger, the wrong kind of anger. I can be selifshly angry or I can be righteously angry, but my anger is never an emotion that exists in a vacuum. I don't think you can separate the emotion from the selfishness.

Blackguard_ · Jan 27, 2007

No, my anger is not simply "along for the ride."

It is, sort of.
Wouldn't believing the seat was yours but not getting angry still be selfish? The anger is just the emotion caused by and/or accompanying your selfish beleif, the anger is not itself selfish.

My anger is selfish anger, the wrong kind of anger.

And the "selfish anger" came from believing the seat was yours right?
Anger is anger, the difference is what causes it

You didn't have the wrong kind of anger, you had anger for the wrong reasons.

Or, what kind of anger were you supposed to have in that situation then? You weren't supposed to be angry at all were you?

I can be selifshly angry or I can be righteously angry,

no, you can be angry for a selfish reason or angry for a righteous one.

but my anger is never an emotion that exists in a vacuum. I don't think you can separate the emotion from the selfishness.

I don't think that was what RPhil was saying.

Eudaimonist · Jan 28, 2007

This might be on a bit of a tangent, but I think it is unwise to place strong moral evaluations on emotions. This is likely to be psychologically unhealthy for you.

The reason is that emotions are not volitional -- they arise unbidden in the right circumstances. You are going to generate much guilt for yourself when you feel the "wrong" (e.g. "selfish") emotion emerge, and this guilt may end up paralyzing you in the long run, since it may be difficult to root out the causes of that particular feeling.

I think it would be much better to view your emotion as merely a sign of some belief, impulse, or sense of life that leads to the emotion. Perhaps the cause can be something brought to the light of day, examined, and changed. As long as it is actions -- conscious decisions -- that are morally praiseworthy or blameworthy, guilt need be no part of this process and one is likely to be psychologically healthier.

eudaimonia,

Mark

Emmy · Jan 28, 2007

Dear Caleb 89, your replies were quite telling, Grief is true and intense suffering, and having feelings, we cannot help ourselves. I do not think personal grief can be selfish, it is natural. It can become selfish, if the hurt person, lets it rule her, or his life completely, and in the process makes all around suffer too. If anybody steps in front of somebody to die instead, because life would be empty without the loved one, that could be classed as selfish, but if somebody did this for reasons saving a life, because that life is important to small children perhaps, or any worthwhile cause, that would Not be selfish. Grief is natural, Caleb, and I say this with humility and love. Greetings from Emmy, sister in Christ.

quatona · Jan 30, 2007

Caleb89 said:
One of my teachers (who has a Dr. degree in philosophy and a Masters degree in psychology and child development) once told me about a conversation she once had with a friend.

She said her friend asked her this:

If someone points a gun at you and shoots it, and I jump in front of the bullet, am I doing this because I genuinely want to save your life by sacraficing mine or because I selfishly don't want to live life without you in it?

Think about it. When you grieve over someone, are you grieving for them because they are no longer alive or are you grieving for yourself because YOU no longer have that person in your life? They are dead and gone so why would you be grieving for them because they no longer get to be alive on earth?

So, is grief a selfish emotion?

Let´s assume it is.
So what?

DailyBlessings · Jan 30, 2007

Grief is beautiful of itself- it comes from our love for others. Now if you "love" others only as a means to an end, solely with exploitation in mind, then your grief might have a selfish edge to it. But I doubt this is the case.

Im_A · Feb 2, 2007

Caleb89 said:
One of my teachers (who has a Dr. degree in philosophy and a Masters degree in psychology and child development) once told me about a conversation she once had with a friend.

She said her friend asked her this:

If someone points a gun at you and shoots it, and I jump in front of the bullet, am I doing this because I genuinely want to save your life by sacraficing mine or because I selfishly don't want to live life without you in it?

Think about it. When you grieve over someone, are you grieving for them because they are no longer alive or are you grieving for yourself because YOU no longer have that person in your life? They are dead and gone so why would you be grieving for them because they no longer get to be alive on earth?

So, is grief a selfish emotion?

i don't believe so. i like what Eudaimonist said in post 14.

to me it is cause and effect. when a loved one dies, the effect will be grief. it has nothing to do with selfishness or unselfishness because no one can control it. we deal with it however we can. whether in a healthy manner, or not so healthy manner. selfishness and unselfishness are desires that we choose on ourselves. grief isn't something we choose. just the the effect of losing someone we love.

and for a friend to stop a bullet from hitting the other person, i don't know if i can see that as selfish of the martyr to do. the greatest act of love is to sacrifice your life for one's friend. and in the moment, i would assume, it's called protection. it's a bad example in my opinion from the teacher in my opinion. a moment in time that we make a split desicion to protect can't be comopared to something as selfishness.

Robbie_James_Francis · Feb 3, 2007

By jumping in front of the bullet the person is assumably willing to die for the one she is protecting. If one does not believe in any sort of after-life, and does not have suicidal tendencies, then I cannot see how the action could be selfish. In fact, it would seem to be perhaps the most unselfish act possible by the very definition of selfish, because it is total and utter voluntary annihilation of the self.

Such a strong love would seem to me to transcend dichotomies like selfish/altruistic. Some may see altruism as the greatest good, and I can certainly empathise with such a view. However, when you really love someone, the dynamic of that emotion (I hesitate the call love an emotion...it is something infinitely greater, but I can't find a better word) rises above being selfish or unselfish. If we dissect love into components then there will be unselfish parts that wish the best for another person, and selfish parts that want the love of that person in return and to experience that person because he is held in such high esteem. But, to me, the whole is always greater than the sum of its parts, and in this case infinitely so.

If this action is motivated by true love, then it contains 'selfish' and 'unselfish' parts but in reality is far beyond such distinctions.

peace

Grief: Is it selfish?

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