Greed, drunkenness, hatred, discord, dissensions, envy, and the like.

[Zaac]

You are right. God does not change. But, people do. Thus, if the Bible is God's word, and God's word does not change, we should try to understand what it meant to those who wrote it, rather than leaning on our modern understandings of what it says. Technology and society, among other influences, radically affect what we are going to read into the Bible. Ideally, we should try to minimize this tendency as much as possible, and I believe that this is what most serious Bible scholars attempt to help us to do.

I agree. And that's why it is encouraged that people deal with what the text actually says. It clears up so many issues.

 

[dies-l]

I agree. And that's why it is encouraged that people deal with what the text actually says. It clears up so many issues.

But in understanding what the text actually says, you are applying a modern viewpoint, which may or may not reflect what the text actually said to those who wrote it.

 

[Zaac]

But in understanding what the text actually says, you are applying a modern viewpoint, which may or may not reflect what the text actually said to those who wrote it.

Actually, if you're dealing with God's Word the way you should, this does not take place.

You exegete first. Meaning you look at what the Word says and what God was saying at the TIME it was said. If you do anything else, you've missed His interpretation because you've ignored what He says and attempted to make it say what you think it should say FIRST based upon today.

You isogete for the application after you understand what He was asying then. There are undergirding principles in God's Word that are timeless.

And time and time again , the principle to jumps to the forefront is the Greatest Commandment. And you cannot love God and unrepentently be disobedient.

 

[savedandhappy1]

[

I agree with you we should help our brothers and sisters to abstain from sin, even when it means helping them to see that their conduct is a sin. What I am trying to figure out is why some conservative/fundamentalist Christians single this one sin out as being so severe that one cannot be a Christian if one commits it. I have pointed to the Scripture that is often used to support this viewpoint and I have pointed out that it lists many sins, some of which are things that most, if not, all Christians struggle with.

Struggle with but yet admit they are sins, here again is the difference.

I don't think that your explanation helps me much. Let me clarify. The distinction that you make is that the "Christian homosexual" does not admit that his homosexual conduct is a sin. On the other hand, you argue, no Christian would argue that greed is not a sin. However, most people I know that are Christian homosexuals will admit that there is a practice in the Bible that has been translated as "homosexual," but that this is a mistranslation, and it instead refers to a practice that is not committed in monogamous and consensual homosexual relationships. I believe that they are quite sincere in this belief. While I am not sure whether I agree with this reasoning, it seems no different than the reasoning of a Christian who works hard to make a huge wad of money, in the process neglecting his family, and who viciously fights against social welfare programs, tithes but offers no more than that to the poor ot to God, who argues that he does not believe that his behavior is "greedy" in the sense that Paul used it in the Bible, and therefore never repents. This, I think is a common scenario, which is arguably fits the definition of greed, every bit as much as (if not more than) the consensual homosexual fits the definition of sexually immoral, and is arguably much more harmful, but I don't see any Christians singling out such people as unchristian, simply because of their wealthy lifestyle.

We are to lay up our treasures with heavenly things not earthly things, right? So because some preach the name it claim it money making thing, does that mean that it is right or of God? I ask if anyone on this site believed that the things you listed were not sins, and by doing so was pointing out how there are several in this section that don't believe homosexuality is a sin. They bring up all the other sins listed as tho because we aren't talking about them means we don't believe they are or that they are as important. All sins are important, and we need forgiveness for all sins we do. I don't believe anyone here thinks that homosexuality is a greater sin than anyother sin, or if they do I haven't read the post that they said this in it.

This is a section to discuss homosexuality, so why would we be debating greed, envy, etc.?

I totally don't mean to single anyone out. What I am trying to say is that a person who commits the sin of greed may admit that greed is a sin, but will often argue that his behavior is not greedy. By the same token, a homosexual may not regard his behavior as falling within the category of "sexual immorality, sodomy," etc, as described in the Bible. In both cases, assuming that these are both sinful choices, the lack of repentance is a product of ignorance, not out of hostility to God. So, why is it that we are so willing to insist that a homosexual cannot be a Christian, but we are still hesitant to judge a person (i.e., ourselves) who may be greedy, or factional, or a drunkard, etc???

I believe that there is a scripture that tells us ignorance is not an excuse, and I can look that up if you need me too.

Also not everyone who says Lord Lord will enter into the Kingdom of God, we are told in the scriptures. There are threads that I have been on in other sites that do discuss these things, and question if someone is all about making money/greed are saved or not. So because we are on a thread that is set aside to debate homosexuality, why would we be talking about all the other sins that are done and do not show fruits that Christians should be showing?

Hope this better explains my point.

 

[savedandhappy1]

And if the Bible says a talking snake tempted Eve, then a talking snake tempted Eve (even if snakes don't have vocal cords);

Do you believe that the creator of the universe could make an animal, that wasn't a snake until after he talked Adam and Eve, into eating of the tree of knowledge could be made to speak?

and if the Bible says the earth was covered with water to a depth of 29,300 feet, the earth was covered with water to a depth of 29,300 feet (even though adabiatic cooling would cause the top two miles to turn to solid ice);

Again are you limiting the Creator by using man's knowledge which can't even come close to understanding all He can, did, and does do?

and if the Bible says that Balaam's donkey talked, then Balaam's donkey talked (even though the vocal cords of a donkey are developed for braying, not talking);

Same as above.

and if the Bible says that disobedient children are to be stoned to death, then disobedient children are to be stoned to death;

Was this not before the sacrifice of our Lord and Saviour?

and if the Bible says that Jesus was crucified alongside two robbers who mocked Him, then Jesus was crucified alongside two robbers who mocked Him; and if the Bible says that Jesus was crucified alongside two robbers and one robber mocked Him, but the other one stated that they (the robbers) were being justly punished, but Jesus had done nothing wrong and asked Jesus to remember him when He went to His kingdom.

Ooops. That's a contradiction -- except it doesn't, because doctrine says the Bible does not contradict itself and does not have any mistakes in it.

So how bad and sad it is that if the Bible is full of so many mistakes and contradiction, we must now face the fact that the scriptures that tell us about the Saviour that came might not be true. The scriptures that show us what we must do to be saved are now in so much question that none of us will know if we really are saved by grace and not works. This should leave us all living in so much fear, but fear is not of God! Oh yeah we don't know that for sure, because it came out of that same mistake written contradicting book.

 

[UberLutheran]

And if the Bible says a talking snake tempted Eve, then a talking snake tempted Eve (even if snakes don't have vocal cords);

Do you believe that the creator of the universe could make an animal, that wasn't a snake until after he talked Adam and Eve, into eating of the tree of knowledge could be made to speak?

In a word: no. Snakes do NOT talk. Donkeys do not talk. There are no such such things as dragons or
unicorns. The throat of a whale is not wide enough to accommodate a human being, who would be caught in the baleen which strains out tiny sea creatures from the water ingested.

Again are you limiting the Creator by using man's knowledge which can't even come close to understanding all He can, did, and does do?

I believe the Creator gave us minds, and with that curiosity and intellect to try to find out about the workings of the world around us, and He expects us to use our God-given curiosity and intellect to see how the world works through the sciences of mathematics, physics, chemistry, biology, zoology, meteorology, genetics, evolution (yes, even evolution); and through the arts such as art, music, and philosophy -- and in doing so, we'll learn a bit about the way God works.

I believe the Bible was never intended to be a mathematics or science textbook, nor a primer in logic. I don't use a spoon to repair an automobile engine, and likewise I would not use Scripture to figure out the structure of an atom or perform mathematical integration. Nor would I use an automobile timing device or a cyclotron to try to figure out the nature of human existence (which is what religious books are for).

So how bad and sad it is that if the Bible is full of so many mistakes and contradiction, we must now face the fact that the scriptures that tell us about the Saviour that came might not be true. The scriptures that show us what we must do to be saved are now in so much question that none of us will know if we really are saved by grace and not works. This should leave us all living in so much fear, but fear is not of God! Oh yeah we don't know that for sure, because it came out of that same mistake written contradicting book.

Well, that's why I said the Bible contradicts itself, except that conservative Protestant dogma says the Bible doesn't contradict itself because the Bible is infallible, so the Bible is infallible and does not contradict itself, even when it contradicts itself and has mistakes, which it doesn't.

 

[Zaac]

In a word: no. Snakes do NOT talk. Donkeys do not talk. There are no such such things as dragons or
unicorns. The throat of a whale is not wide enough to accommodate a human being, who would be caught in the baleen which strains out tiny sea creatures from the water ingested.

12But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish. 2 Peter 2:12

I believe the Creator gave us minds, and with that curiosity and intellect to try to find out about the workings of the world around us, and He expects us to use our God-given curiosity and intellect to see how the world works through the sciences of mathematics, physics, chemistry, biology, zoology, meteorology, genetics, evolution (yes, even evolution); and through the arts such as art, music, and philosophy -- and in doing so, we'll learn a bit about the way God works.

I believe the Bible was never intended to be a mathematics or science textbook, nor a primer in logic. I don't use a spoon to repair an automobile engine, and likewise I would not use Scripture to figure out the structure of an atom or perform mathematical integration. Nor would I use an automobile timing device or a cyclotron to try to figure out the nature of human existence (which is what religious books are for).

12But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish. 2 Peter 2:12

Well, that's why I said the Bible contradicts itself, except that conservative Protestant dogma says the Bible doesn't contradict itself because the Bible is infallible, so the Bible is infallible and does not contradict itself, even when it contradicts itself and has mistakes, which it doesn't.

12But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish. 2 Peter 2:12

 

[savedandhappy1]

In a word: no. Snakes do NOT talk. Donkeys do not talk. There are no such such things as dragons or unicorns. The throat of a whale is not wide enough to accommodate a human being, who would be caught in the baleen which strains out tiny sea creatures from the water ingested.

Let me try this again. Satan wasn't a snake when he tempted Eve. He was made into a snake as punishment for what he did.

Gen 3:14
And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

He was called a serpent in Genesis and Revelation.

Gen 3:1-4,13
Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.

Rev 12:9
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Rev 20:2
And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Do dogs have vocal cords, because I have a friend whose dog could talk real good. It doesn't really matter, because I believe that if God wants a serpent or a donkey to talk, then it will.

I also believe that if people want to try and use stuff like this to prove that conservative/fundamentalist/protestant are dumb, closed minded whatevers, then they will.

If they think that changes what is or isn't a sin, well it won't.

I also don't believe that those who are really seeking the truth, and may be reading these post and not posting, will all fall for this method of trying to discredit people.

We are just to plant the seeds of truth, and the Lord will take care of the rest.

So yes the Bible means what it says when taken as a whole and in context. Reading the Bible prayerfully, asking the Lord to give you wisdom and understanding will happen just like the Bible says it will.

We will be given eternal life with the Lord if we accept His gift of salvation and mercy, by faith. We will be forgiven of our sins if we repent and confess them, again just like the Bible says He will. We will one day go and live with Him in the mansion He has prepared for us, just like the Bible says.

I could go on, but I might accidently state one of the truths from the Bible that isn't accepted by all, and I may have already done that since the Bible is so questionable.

P.S. Oh by the way the Bible says a great fish, it doesn't say anything about a whale.

 

[irateional]

There is a difference between living and practicing the sin- and by omission or comission- comitting it once.

That doesn't make a difference. It's all sin.

It's only by the grace of God that we are saved.