Hello,
Thank you all for responding to my previous post Intelligent Discussion. I posed a question to anyone who cared to discuss the issue of Gods Existence. I was very happy to see you all took it seriously.
I received several opinions from Christian believers, however each person had their own (and very different) interpretation to the same question. I really value your time and appreciate your responses, but I do have more questions.
I summarized parts of your replies (hopefully with no change to the intended message to the questions Why does God allow bad things to happen? And What is the difference between God and me killing a person to reinforce another persons belief in God);
One may cavil against a loving God allowing suffering, but reject any concept of God and what is the explanation for suffering then?
Within the biblical story the why of evil is never clearly addressed, only that it exists. But God is not remote from our situation, and in fact, in Jesus, entered into our suffering Himself
Johnnz
You killing someone is different from God doing so. God is the creator and we are the creature. We have no right to take so freely, but we quite literally owned by God. Yeh things like this are confusing, this is largely taken on faith I suppose...
Solarwave
First, I had to decide that the world revolves God. He created me. I did not create Him.
Second, I had to decide He could do whatever He wants to do, whenever He wants to do it, and He doesn't have to explain any of it to me.
It only works if God does it. Because He is the only one who knows how all things fit together into His perfect plan.
It might not make sense to me or you or anyone else, but to God it makes perfect sense .
GeorgeWW
1) To provide us learning/training/character-development opportunities.
2) To enable a real environment where real choices and real character development is possible
Simple_Mind
Nature is cruel, but through the cruelty something beautiful emerges, evolution. Yes disease and deformity are cruel, but are they not a strong driving force behind human ingenuity?
As for god killing Job's family, you can safely assume that never happened. The old testament has a lot of large scale acts of god that are disregarded as fairy tale by people who study history seriously. Ask a public university history professor if any of the things in the old testament really happened, he will say no
The old testament is something many Christians admit cannot be taken seriously, while many others say it is god's word
Think rationally about some of the hardest questions you have and you will realize there is no good answer, then you can reform your idea of god that does provide an answer
deathduck
Again, I hope I did not take anything out of context and I did read all your opinions in full.
From your replies I picked up a few different ways of thinking Some picked unchanged bible quotes from different verses to find an answer, some interpreted and added their own meaning to bible quotes, some did not need to question or understand God or the bible (taking the bible and word of God literally). Some chose not to believe parts of the bible (Old Testament), while still believing in the Christian God and/or the Core message of Christianity.
All these very different ideas of interpreting Christianity are very valid to me. I enjoy having conversations with my friends (some of who are Christians, which I think highly of) in a civil manner.
I would like to ask the people who responded to my previous question (as well as others) another question, which often comes to mind.
If you draw your own meaning from interpreting quotes from the bible, shouldnt you instead accept every passage literally as the word of God, the creator of language and moderator of the bible? Would God want other people to find a subjective meaning to his word (will you answer this question based on others or your interpretation, or on Gods exact word?), then have those who studied the altered meaning to pass it to the next generation while adding their own subjective interpretation?
If you find the truth in unchanged bible quotes, do you believe every passage from the bible is the ultimate truth and the unaltered word of God? Should you act upon and obey all passages or just some, how do you decide which ones to follow (if not you, than whom)?
If you believe in every passage of the bible literally (that it is the unaltered word of God), would you try your hardest to obey and act upon all that is literally written in the bible?
If you denounce the Old Testament and believe it must be false, do you hold every word of the New Testament as the truth? Can you be a true Christian if you only believe in parts of the Christian bible? Do you believe in the idea of God separate from the bible?
All these ways of thinking seem right and cannot be disregarded by an intelligent person, but which should I follow?
If I want to believe the bible is Gods word, should I obey and act upon all the following passages or should I only follow ones that other people or myself think are appropriate? How does one decide which verses should be worded differently, a little too extreme/outdated or maybe ignored altogether?
Leviticus 20:9 If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to death.
Exodus 35:2 For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it must be put to death.
Leviticus 20:13 If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death.
Exodus 21:20-21 If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property.
Leviticus 25:44-45 Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property.
Leviticus 21:16-23 "...Whosoever he be of thy seed in their generations that hath any blemish, let him not approach to offer the bread of his God. For whatsoever man he be that hath a blemish, he shall not approach: a blind man, or a lame, or he that hath a flat nose, or any thing superfluous, Or a man that is brokenfooted, or brokenhanded, Or crookbackt, or a dwarf, or that hath a blemish in his eye, or be scurvy, or scabbed, or hath his stones broken;"
I understand this is a very complex question, but with all respect, this is one of the main reasons why I have a hard time accepting the bible, not God
As I said before, I consider myself an Agnostic and would love if someone can explain how the bible (in its entirety; the bible found in all Christian churches) can coexist with an omnipotent being, creator of all language and by definition; perfect.
Thank you all for responding to my previous post Intelligent Discussion. I posed a question to anyone who cared to discuss the issue of Gods Existence. I was very happy to see you all took it seriously.
I received several opinions from Christian believers, however each person had their own (and very different) interpretation to the same question. I really value your time and appreciate your responses, but I do have more questions.
I summarized parts of your replies (hopefully with no change to the intended message to the questions Why does God allow bad things to happen? And What is the difference between God and me killing a person to reinforce another persons belief in God);
One may cavil against a loving God allowing suffering, but reject any concept of God and what is the explanation for suffering then?
Within the biblical story the why of evil is never clearly addressed, only that it exists. But God is not remote from our situation, and in fact, in Jesus, entered into our suffering Himself
Johnnz
You killing someone is different from God doing so. God is the creator and we are the creature. We have no right to take so freely, but we quite literally owned by God. Yeh things like this are confusing, this is largely taken on faith I suppose...
Solarwave
First, I had to decide that the world revolves God. He created me. I did not create Him.
Second, I had to decide He could do whatever He wants to do, whenever He wants to do it, and He doesn't have to explain any of it to me.
It only works if God does it. Because He is the only one who knows how all things fit together into His perfect plan.
It might not make sense to me or you or anyone else, but to God it makes perfect sense .
GeorgeWW
1) To provide us learning/training/character-development opportunities.
2) To enable a real environment where real choices and real character development is possible
Simple_Mind
Nature is cruel, but through the cruelty something beautiful emerges, evolution. Yes disease and deformity are cruel, but are they not a strong driving force behind human ingenuity?
As for god killing Job's family, you can safely assume that never happened. The old testament has a lot of large scale acts of god that are disregarded as fairy tale by people who study history seriously. Ask a public university history professor if any of the things in the old testament really happened, he will say no
The old testament is something many Christians admit cannot be taken seriously, while many others say it is god's word
Think rationally about some of the hardest questions you have and you will realize there is no good answer, then you can reform your idea of god that does provide an answer
deathduck
Again, I hope I did not take anything out of context and I did read all your opinions in full.
From your replies I picked up a few different ways of thinking Some picked unchanged bible quotes from different verses to find an answer, some interpreted and added their own meaning to bible quotes, some did not need to question or understand God or the bible (taking the bible and word of God literally). Some chose not to believe parts of the bible (Old Testament), while still believing in the Christian God and/or the Core message of Christianity.
All these very different ideas of interpreting Christianity are very valid to me. I enjoy having conversations with my friends (some of who are Christians, which I think highly of) in a civil manner.
I would like to ask the people who responded to my previous question (as well as others) another question, which often comes to mind.
If you draw your own meaning from interpreting quotes from the bible, shouldnt you instead accept every passage literally as the word of God, the creator of language and moderator of the bible? Would God want other people to find a subjective meaning to his word (will you answer this question based on others or your interpretation, or on Gods exact word?), then have those who studied the altered meaning to pass it to the next generation while adding their own subjective interpretation?
If you find the truth in unchanged bible quotes, do you believe every passage from the bible is the ultimate truth and the unaltered word of God? Should you act upon and obey all passages or just some, how do you decide which ones to follow (if not you, than whom)?
If you believe in every passage of the bible literally (that it is the unaltered word of God), would you try your hardest to obey and act upon all that is literally written in the bible?
If you denounce the Old Testament and believe it must be false, do you hold every word of the New Testament as the truth? Can you be a true Christian if you only believe in parts of the Christian bible? Do you believe in the idea of God separate from the bible?
All these ways of thinking seem right and cannot be disregarded by an intelligent person, but which should I follow?
If I want to believe the bible is Gods word, should I obey and act upon all the following passages or should I only follow ones that other people or myself think are appropriate? How does one decide which verses should be worded differently, a little too extreme/outdated or maybe ignored altogether?
Leviticus 20:9 If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to death.
Exodus 35:2 For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it must be put to death.
Leviticus 20:13 If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death.
Exodus 21:20-21 If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property.
Leviticus 25:44-45 Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property.
Leviticus 21:16-23 "...Whosoever he be of thy seed in their generations that hath any blemish, let him not approach to offer the bread of his God. For whatsoever man he be that hath a blemish, he shall not approach: a blind man, or a lame, or he that hath a flat nose, or any thing superfluous, Or a man that is brokenfooted, or brokenhanded, Or crookbackt, or a dwarf, or that hath a blemish in his eye, or be scurvy, or scabbed, or hath his stones broken;"
I understand this is a very complex question, but with all respect, this is one of the main reasons why I have a hard time accepting the bible, not God
As I said before, I consider myself an Agnostic and would love if someone can explain how the bible (in its entirety; the bible found in all Christian churches) can coexist with an omnipotent being, creator of all language and by definition; perfect.