Greatest Struggle

[Majul]

Hello,

Thank you all for responding to my previous post “Intelligent Discussion”. I posed a question to anyone who cared to discuss the issue of “Gods Existence”. I was very happy to see you all took it seriously.

I received several opinions from Christian believers, however each person had their own (and very different) interpretation to the same question. I really value your time and appreciate your responses, but I do have more questions.

I summarized parts of your replies (hopefully with no change to the intended message to the questions “Why does God allow bad things to happen? And “What is the difference between God and me killing a person to reinforce another persons belief in God”);

“…One may cavil against a loving God allowing suffering, but reject any concept of God and what is the explanation for suffering then?”

Within the biblical story the why of evil is never clearly addressed, only that it exists. But God is not remote from our situation, and in fact, in Jesus, entered into our suffering Himself…”

Johnnz

“You killing someone is different from God doing so. God is the creator and we are the creature. We have no right to take so freely, but we quite literally owned by God. Yeh things like this are confusing, this is largely taken on faith I suppose...”

Solarwave

“First, I had to decide that the world revolves God. He created me. I did not create Him.

Second, I had to decide He could do whatever He wants to do, whenever He wants to do it, and He doesn't have to explain any of it to me.

It only works if God does it. Because He is the only one who knows how all things fit together into His perfect plan.

It might not make sense to me or you or anyone else, but to God it makes perfect sense….”

GeorgeWW

“…1) To provide us learning/training/character-development opportunities.

2) To enable a real environment where real choices and real character development is possible…”

Simple_Mind

“…Nature is cruel, but through the cruelty something beautiful emerges, evolution. Yes disease and deformity are cruel, but are they not a strong driving force behind human ingenuity?

As for god killing Job's family, you can safely assume that never happened. The old testament has a lot of large scale acts of god that are disregarded as fairy tale by people who study history seriously. Ask a public university history professor if any of the things in the old testament really happened, he will say no…”

“…The old testament is something many Christians admit cannot be taken seriously, while many others say it is god's word…”

“…Think rationally about some of the hardest questions you have and you will realize there is no good answer, then you can reform your idea of god that does provide an answer…”

deathduck

Again, I hope I did not take anything out of context and I did read all your opinions in full.

From your replies I picked up a few different ways of thinking… Some picked unchanged bible quotes from different verses to find an answer, some interpreted and added their own meaning to bible quotes, some did not need to question or understand God or the bible (taking the bible and word of God literally). Some chose not to believe parts of the bible (Old Testament), while still believing in the Christian God and/or the “Core” message of Christianity.

All these very different ideas of interpreting Christianity are very valid to me. I enjoy having conversations with my friends (some of who are Christians, which I think highly of) in a civil manner.

I would like to ask the people who responded to my previous question (as well as others) another question, which often comes to mind.

If you draw your own meaning from interpreting quotes from the bible, shouldn’t you instead accept every passage literally as the word of God, the creator of language and moderator of the bible? Would God want other people to find a subjective meaning to his word (will you answer this question based on others or your interpretation, or on Gods exact word?), then have those who studied the “altered” meaning to pass it to the next generation while adding their own subjective interpretation?

If you find the truth in unchanged bible quotes, do you believe every passage from the bible is the ultimate truth and the unaltered word of God? Should you act upon and obey all passages or just some, how do you decide which ones to follow (if not you, than whom)?

If you believe in every passage of the bible literally (that it is the unaltered word of God), would you try your hardest to obey and act upon all that is literally written in the bible?

If you denounce the Old Testament and believe it must be false, do you hold every word of the New Testament as the truth? Can you be a true Christian if you only believe in parts of the Christian bible? Do you believe in the idea of God separate from the bible?

All these ways of thinking seem right and cannot be disregarded by an intelligent person, but which should I follow?

If I want to believe the bible is Gods word, should I obey and act upon all the following passages or should I only follow ones that other people or myself think are appropriate? How does one decide which verses should be worded differently, a little too extreme/outdated or maybe ignored altogether?

Leviticus 20:9 “If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to death.”

Exodus 35:2 “For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it must be put to death.”

Leviticus 20:13 “If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death.”

Exodus 21:20-21 “If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property.”

Leviticus 25:44-45 “Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property.”

Leviticus 21:16-23 "...Whosoever he be of thy seed in their generations that hath any blemish, let him not approach to offer the bread of his God. For whatsoever man he be that hath a blemish, he shall not approach: a blind man, or a lame, or he that hath a flat nose, or any thing superfluous, Or a man that is brokenfooted, or brokenhanded, Or crookbackt, or a dwarf, or that hath a blemish in his eye, or be scurvy, or scabbed, or hath his stones broken;"

I understand this is a very complex question, but with all respect, this is one of the main reasons why I have a hard time accepting the bible, not God…

As I said before, I consider myself an Agnostic and would love if someone can explain how the bible (in its entirety; the bible found in all Christian churches) can coexist with an omnipotent being, creator of all language and by definition; perfect.

 

[GeorgeWW]

Good question!

I don't see it as complex at all. To me the question is "why" does God command the things He commands?

According to Jesus, "the first and greatest commandment is to love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it, love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." (Matthew 22:37-40)

I believe all other commandments are given to us to help us understand how to best obey these two commands. I also believe the specific commandments of the Old Testament, like the ones you referred to are meant to show us how far short we fall of loving God and loving others.

I were allowed to determine my own standard, I would always meet it. But if I have to meet God's standard, I always fall short.

Thus, I see the need for the work of Jesus Christ on the cross.

Simple question. Simple answer. Really, really hard to comprehend.

Praying for you.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

Hi, I believe that the Bible is not made up of verses that could be taken in isolation, but that it's simply God's message to us. It's an entire message. Each verse relates to another. The center of it all is love. If you see it's no longer about love, then you're not interpreting it right. But this requires some understanding of what God has done in the world and why.. for example, some parts of the OT don't sound loving at all, but really what God was doing is trying to tell these people about morality to prepare them for the coming of the Savior. Once Jesus came, He fulfilled everything in the OT, and when you read the New Testament the point of the Bible, and of God's plan, is much more clear. It's all about redemption in the end!! It's not a textbook.. even though I believe it's all true and I interpret it literally in most places (like the events/miracles).. but it's meant to be read as a spiritual story.

Hope that helps..

 

[aiki]

If you draw your own meaning from interpreting quotes from the bible, shouldn’t you instead accept every passage literally as the word of God, the creator of language and moderator of the bible?

I do "accept every passage literally as the Word of God."

Would God want other people to find a subjective meaning to his word (will you answer this question based on others or your interpretation, or on Gods exact word?), then have those who studied the “altered” meaning to pass it to the next generation while adding their own subjective interpretation?

The apostle Paul wrote that "God is not the author of confusion..." If this is true, and I believe it is, then approaching the interpretation of Scripture with a view to wresting the most obscure, complicated meaning from it is not appropriate. Here are some basic rules of thumb when studying the meaning of a verse:

1. The simplest (but not the most simplistic) meaning of a verse or passage is always best.
2. An explicit statement trumps an implicit one.
3. The immediate context within which a verse appears sets the boundaries for its interpretation.
4. The entirety of Scripture must agree with the interpretation of any single verse.

With these simple principles of interpretation in place, it is not possible to read into a passage whatever one wishes.

Whatever interpretation a particular teacher may give to Scripture, a student may evaluate it by Scripture itself. This has been true now for a very long time.

If you believe in every passage of the bible literally (that it is the unaltered word of God), would you try your hardest to obey and act upon all that is literally written in the bible?

This sounds like a trick question. I would still say "yes," however.

If you denounce the Old Testament and believe it must be false, do you hold every word of the New Testament as the truth? Can you be a true Christian if you only believe in parts of the Christian bible? Do you believe in the idea of God separate from the bible?

No Christian would deny the OT as false. As a Christian, I hold both the OT and NT as true.

No, you cannot be a genuine Christian and deny parts of the Bible: "All scripture is given by inspiration of God."

The Bible reveals who God is. I would have some awareness of God without the Bible, but no clear idea who He was.

If I want to believe the bible is Gods word, should I obey and act upon all the following passages or should I only follow ones that other people or myself think are appropriate? How does one decide which verses should be worded differently, a little too extreme/outdated or maybe ignored altogether?

The Bible itself tells you what do with the verses you cited.

None of the Bible should be "worded differently," or held to be "a little too extreme," or "ignored altogether." Good grief! Whose Word is it? God's or yours? I mean, when did God appoint any of us as His editor? Why would one bother reading the words of a God who required editing? If God needs an editor, He is not God.

It is...interesting that all of the verses you've posted are from the OT. Why is that? Why do you find no such commands in the NT? A slow read through Romans and Hebrews would provide you with an answer.

Peace.

 

[solarwave]

Personally I take the whole Bible, Old testament and New testament, as the word of God. This does not mean I take the whole Bible as the literal truth (eg: Creation is 7 days and how is happen can symbolise how it happened over millions of years, and the book of Revelation). But also with Genesis you can talk about it as if it actually happened in some ways because the meaning of the story still applies (eg: Maybe there was no first Adam who sinned in that way, but you can talk about it as if it is true because the meaning is still true). I hope you get what I mean.

The Bible should have one interpretation, but God also talks to people individually through the Bible about certain situations.

Something interesting I hear is that possibly when the Bible was translated that God influenced the main translations so that they were according this what He ment still.

Some laws of the Old Testament do not apply any more, such as not being allowed to eat certain foods, which is because Jesus said it does not matter what you put in your mouth, but what comes out. So I suppose that most laws in the Old Testament that Jesus didnt say or imply had changed, are still the same, but a lot of the Old Testament laws have changed because at Jesus' death it was change from living by Law to living in Gods Grace.

The New testament over rules the Old testament basically.

 

[Ikuis]

This is a very broad topic and difficult to summarise briefly. I think one needs to consider at least three basic points first:

1) There exists an old and a new covenant. The old covenant was based on obedience of the law through belief in God. The new covenant is based on belief in Jesus Christ and the redemption of our sin through the cross. Therefore those holding to the new covenant are not bound by the laws of the old. However, the spirit of those laws has not died, instead the cold external obedience has been replaced with obedience through love. As Paul says, those who love fulfil the law.

2) Regarding the bible, this raises the issue of which bible! There are many versions in many languages and even different books considered to make up the canon of the bible. If one compares these versions, one finds many variances. So it is hard to say that literally every word is the Word of God because a word or phrase in one version is sometimes omitted in others. But these variations are small and, in my opinion, do not cause contradiction in the core message of the bible. In fact, this is even a positive factor because it means one HAS to be certain of the entirety rather than odd verses in isolation. Once one sees the big picture, then it is possible to see these variations in their true light.

3) The bible is not the only "tool" in the Christian toolbox. Christianity is a communal faith that thrives on communal activities including prayer, worship, helping others, etc. Private prayer is also a major component of the Christian life. When one adds these practical, on-the-job, activities to regular study of the bible then the bible message comes even more clearly to life. I think it is here where "the rubber hits the road" concerning what one does as a Christian.

Just some personal thoughts.

 

[drich0150]

My thoughta are long the lines of GeorgeWW's. First and for most we are commanded to love the lord with all of our being.. Loving God with all of our intellect is apart of that command.. If we comprehend a passage to our limits of understanding For the purpose of the Glory of Jesus, because we love him, and this is how we are expressing that love.. Then no matter how that interpretation differs from your understanding, it is Valid to God. Because it is the reason why we do what we do that is important, and not always how we do it.

If God can forgive all of the openly rebellious sins of the world, then would it stand to reason that there is also forgiveness to be found in someone using whatever intellect God has given him in a complete way to worship and love him?

How could a God of Love mercy, and jealousy, be angry at a 110% effort from someone using all of his facilities to acknowledge, love and except Jesus and worship in the only way he knows how to? We are not all created equal. Some have been given one talent, and others four.. It's what we do with the talent that is important.