"graven images"

[MoNiCa4316]

Yesterday I had a discussion with a friend who is a Protestant about images of Christ, Mary, the Saints, etc... she said that she doesn't feel comfortable with statues cause in the Bible it says not to make graven images. My reply was that in the next verse it says not to bow to them or serve them, so it's talking about idols not just images.. because it also says not to make any likeness of anything that's on earth, so following this logic, we shouldn't draw trees and animals and such either.
Then another topic came up - that Catholics "bow to images". I tried to explain that we don't bow TO them, but to God, and they're visual reminders.. I also explained veneration a little bit.. I said, idolatry is when you think the image IS divine..is God.. but no one thinks so.
Then, I read somewhere that the word "graven" just means anything drawn, engraved, or carved - in the original language - so it's not referring specifically to statues either.

Do you think that I gave a good answer and is there anything I could add to that?

I'm trying to find those passages in the OT where making of images WAS allowed and in fact commanded. Anyone have the verses? I'm really bad with the OT lol.

 

[CathNancy]

Sorry I don't remember the verse, but God told Moses exactly how He wanted the Ark of the Covenant made, including how large, the wood to use, overlayed with gold and the angels on the top.

 

[kisstheson]

here ya go...

Something I wrote and saved because I'm always running into that argument.

I say the debate about idol worship has to do with exactly that...worship. In the Torah God says to His people. "You shall not make unto a carved image or ANY LIKENESS of anything in heaven or earth beneath... You shall not bow down and WORSHIP them. EX 20:4

Yet God asks Moses to build the Tabernacle He required of him to make the Ark of the Covenant. On the top of the Ark was the Mercy Seat where God said He would meet with the High Priest in the Tabenacle. Over shadowing this seat God told Moses to make two cheribim with wings "They must face each other, their FACES toward the Mercy Seat." Exodus 25:17-22 Moses was to cover the Arc with gold.
Cheribim are angels. God is instructing Moses to create A LIKENESS of something in Heaven.

The priest would come into the Tabernacle and burn incense before the Ark etc. Now here is the likeness of angels in Heaven in the very Tabernacle of God and later in the Temple. Does this mean the people are worshipping angels? Later in the Temple there was images of lions and trees, again, likenesses of things on the earth. Were the people worshipping lions and trees? Of course not. Worship has to do with the heart. If in your heart you are saying, "These angels are my gods, " that is idol worship such as the Jews did when they worshipped the golden calf. they said, "This is your god Israel." It's interesting that God told Moses to cover the ark with gold. Does this mean the Ark itself was an idol? It certainly wasn't God.

 

[Gwendolyn]

The Bronze Serpent (Numbers 21:4-9)

4 From Mount Hor they set out by the way to the Red Sea, to go around the land of Edom; but the people became impatient on the way. 5The people spoke against God and against Moses, ‘Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? For there is no food and no water, and we detest this miserable food.’ 6Then the Lord sent poisonous serpents among the people, and they bit the people, so that many Israelites died. 7The people came to Moses and said, ‘We have sinned by speaking against the Lord and against you; pray to the Lord to take away the serpents from us.’ So Moses prayed for the people. 8And the Lord said to Moses, ‘Make a poisonous serpent, and set it on a pole; and everyone who is bitten shall look at it and live.’ 9So Moses made a serpent of bronze, and put it upon a pole; and whenever a serpent bit someone, that person would look at the serpent of bronze and live.

Yeah, graven just means carved and such. By that logic, we shouldn't make statues of people we respect - historical figures. That would mean that the Lincoln memorial is evil, since people go there sometimes to reflect. Having an image of a Saint is no different than having a picture of a loved one around. You look at the picture, you're fond of the loved one - not the picture. You recall your love for your loved one. Same with icons. (Well, I like icons, the only statue-like thing I use is a crucifix.) You look at the icon, you think about the holiness of the Saint and wonder at their dedication to God. You ask the Saint to pray for you to the Lord our God. Or, if it's an icon of Christ, you pray to Christ.

Icons aren't deities. There's no god-like thing living in the icon. And using an icon in your prayer life isn't worshipping a picture, firstly because there's no god-like thing living in the icon and the icon isn't a god, and secondly because the Saint pictured isn't divine and isn't a god and doesn't have the characteristics that God does.

I think when you talk to people like that you have to talk about the difference between worship and honour/respect/veneration. People have no problem when someone honors/respects a living person. But suddenly when that person has gone to God it's evil or something. My love and respect for my mother doesn't change just because she has gone to God. I don't stop loving her or honouring her just because she isn't physically here anymore.

Oh well.

 

[QuantaCura]

In the very same chapter in Exodus where the 10 Commandments are given, God commands statues of Cherubim to be built. I don't know, seems like a no-brainer to me.

Likewise, in Scripture, sometimes a person will bow down before a creature (lik an angel) and they are reproved for adoring that person, yet other times it is treated like the right thing--that is because bowing down does not necessarily mean adoration, but it can also simply mean showing respect--giving honor to whom honor is due.

 

[Breaking Babylon]

Look at Exodus 26:1. In God's commands to Moses concerning the tabernacle, given just a few chapters after the giving of the Ten Commandments, is this instruction: "Moreover you shall make the tabernacle with ten curtains of fine twisted linen and blue and purple and scarlet; you shall make them with cherubim, the work of a skillful workman." A similar command with respect to the Ark of the Covenant instructed Moses to have two cherubim of hammered gold at the ends of the mercy seat. God said, "And there I will meet with you; and from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubim which are upon the ark of the testimony, I will speak to you about all that I will give you in commandment for the sons of Israel" (Exodus 25:22). Here are images directly connected with the presence of God.

The command in question is from the Ten Commandments: "Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: thou shalt not bow down thyself to them nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God" (Exodus 20:3-5). Note that the context shows that the term "graven image" is used to refer to an idol -- an image created to be worshiped as a god. This is why God was angered with the golden calf, they had burned the gold from their jewelry to construct an idol to worship. As it was said in Exodus above, the Ark itself had a depiction of cherubim, angels -- isn't that a likeness of something heavenly? But look at how the commandment itself begins -- thou shalt have no other gods before Me. We don't. The fact is, the Ark of the Covenant is where God said He would meet us, from above the mercy seat. The graven images of the cherubim didn't take the focus from God at all ... no more than Orthodox iconography takes our focus from God, or Catholic statuary. Through these, we humbly believe, the Prototype is glorified. I don't worship the icon. I never have, I never will.

A synod of bishops gathered together in 787 AD. The body came together and decreed: "We, therefore, following the royal pathway and the divinely inspired authority of our Holy Fathers and the traditions of the Church (for, as we all know, the Holy Spirit indwells her), define with all certainty and accuracy that just as the figure of the precious and life giving Cross, so also the venerable and holy images, as well in painting and mosaic as of other fit materials, should be set forth in the holy Churches of God, and on the sacred vessels and on the vestments and on hangings and in pictures both in houses and by the wayside, to wit, the figure of our Lord God and Savior Jesus Christ, of our spotless Lady, of the honorable Angels, of all Saints, and of all pious people." Were they all idolaters? Surely not. The West has a hard time with the idea of veneration, but because one feels uncomfortable doesn't automatically make something false.

 

[QuantaCura]

Here are two examples of what I meant:

(notice, the archaic meaning of worship, which included also paying honor, is used here--like the English would call rules "your worship;" it's like we call judges "your honor"). Notice Joshua is not reproved, but John is. Obviously intent matters.

Jos. 5:14 And he said, "No; but as commander of the army of the LORD I have now come." And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and worshipped, and said to him, "What does my lord bid his servant?" 15 And the commander of the LORD's army said to Joshua, "Put off your shoes from your feet; for the place where you stand is holy." And Joshua did so.

Rev. 22:8 I John am he who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me; 9 but he said to me, "You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brethren the prophets, and with those who keep the words of this book. Worship God."

 

[AMDG]

Well, in addition to the Scriptual evidence, you could take the whole question out of the religious realm and put it into the personal/secular one.

For instance, many people (not just Catholics) have pictures of loved ones in their living areas. (I have pictures of my grandchildren, children, parents, and grandparents on the "light bridge" in my living room; one daughter has family pictures on a wall in her living room; another non-Catholic daughter-in-law has family pictures all through her house; and there are lots of doting parents and grandparents carry pictures of their children in their wallets. "Graven images?" I don't think so. "Representations" of real people. Well same with us. The statues "represent" real people--we don't think they are the "real thing".)

But what about acting on it? Ever see the movie "Adventures in Babysitting", or maybe "April Love". There was a scene where the heroine kissed the picture of her boyfriend. (And I have to admit that when I was young and my intended was serving in Vietnam, I not only talked to his picture but kissed it goodnight too) <Gasp> Don't we know that a picture isn't the "real thing"? Of course. So do Catholics. Not an idol--just a representation of the "real thing".

Then there are statues in parks and National Monuments. Many, many people go visit, but does that mean that they are paying homage to idols? Why doesn't it?

Finally, I guess your friend isn't concerned about the "bail-outs" anymore since she has given up carrying around those graven objects known as "money."

Just sharing ideas. Perhaps they'll work, you decide.

 

[JoabAnias]

Medieval Sourcebook:
St. John of Damascus:
Apologia Against Those Who Decry Holy Images
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/johndamascus-images.html

Acts 19:11-12 So extraordinary were the mighty deeds God accomplished at the hands of Paul that when face cloths or aprons that touched his skin were applied to the sick, their diseases left them and the evil spirits came out of them.

 

[neeners]

Another thought, I remember learning and saw it beautifully explained through various websites... Catholics believe that God can be encountered/worship not only through the scriptures but through our five senses in the mass and other times as well..

sight: candles, art, adoration.. smell: incense, touch: holy water, rosary beads, hear: music,bells taste: Holy Eucharist, blood of Christ.


There is more to this and I know Fr. Greeley who probably isn't real popular in here but he did have this on his website once, it was lovely.

I did find this also, very simple: http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/sensing-god-in-catholicism.html

I think Protestants sometimes don't understand that we are enhancing our experience with God with as much human limitations as we can.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

thanks guys, that really helps! God bless!

 

[Secundulus]

Yesterday I had a discussion with a friend who is a Protestant about images of Christ, Mary, the Saints, etc... she said that she doesn't feel comfortable with statues cause in the Bible it says not to make graven images. My reply was that in the next verse it says not to bow to them or serve them, so it's talking about idols not just images.. because it also says not to make any likeness of anything that's on earth, so following this logic, we shouldn't draw trees and animals and such either.
Then another topic came up - that Catholics "bow to images". I tried to explain that we don't bow TO them, but to God, and they're visual reminders.. I also explained veneration a little bit.. I said, idolatry is when you think the image IS divine..is God.. but no one thinks so.
Then, I read somewhere that the word "graven" just means anything drawn, engraved, or carved - in the original language - so it's not referring specifically to statues either.

Do you think that I gave a good answer and is there anything I could add to that?

I'm trying to find those passages in the OT where making of images WAS allowed and in fact commanded. Anyone have the verses? I'm really bad with the OT lol.

Consider this (Anglican source). Recomend you read the whole thing at the link. It is not very long.

[SIZE=+1]The Seventh General Council and the Doctrine of Icons[/SIZE]
Conference in the Jerusalem Chamber,
Westminster, December 2, 1918.​

The Sanctification of Matter through the Incarnation.
Of old God the uncircumscribed could not be portrayed.
The Incarnation was a condescension to our nature.
We are as God made us, with bodies and senses.
Christ came that we might apprehend God through the material Image of His human nature: He Whom, as St. John says, we have seen and heard and handled.
Thus it has come to pass that we can approach Him through the noblest of our senses; we can portray the God Whom we have seen.
Link

 

[LuxMUndiDesigns]

Statues or sculptures are a visual and tangible reflection of something which we admire. Religious sculptures are the same, and if they are well made they can create a sense of feeling that the artist wants to relay. There is an emotional impact with any good art, religious based or not, and that impact enhances our lives making them richer.

I don't believe the art itself is what God would see as graven, but the spirit in which the art is viewed may be.