Graven Images

[abigale]

Why do you think God said not to have graven images?
What are the reasons that we're not supposed to place any false images of Jesus God in front of us? I think that the reason is that it supplants who He is. When we look on Jesus as the Word, not having preconcieved ideas, He can shine Himself on us in His full glory, revealing Himself to us in new ways.
Jesus, as the "image of the invisable God" could never be expressed of His glory in a false picture and only serves to limit Him.

 

[Kaella]

That's very true.
Hebrews says that the mountain where the 10 commandments were given can't be touched and no further word spoken to them. So if it's in the new testement it must still be in effect.


Hebrews 12:18-21

18You have not come to a mountain that can be touched and that is burning with fire; to darkness, gloom and storm;
19to a trumpet blast or to such a voice speaking words that those who heard it begged that no further word be spoken to them,
20because they could not bear what was commanded: "If even an animal touches the mountain, it must be stoned."
21The sight was so terrifying that Moses said, "I am trembling with fear."[

 

[abigale]

That verse goes further to say:

22But you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, 23to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, 24to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

25See to it that you do not refuse him who speaks. If they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, how much less will we, if we turn away from him who warns us from heaven? 26At that time his voice shook the earth, but now he has promised, "Once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heavens"

27The words "once more" indicate the removing of what can be shaken—that is, created things—so that what cannot be shaken may remain. 28Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us be thankful, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe, 29for our "God is a consuming fire"

 

[Eph429]

What I understand about Graven Images, is not only the Icons of God and or other things that we put before God. But it's also who we make God out to be, to suit our needs. Ie: There are many people who believe in God, but don't abide in His word, so they make Him out to be the "god" of their choice. In other words, they manipulate him to suit their needs. I don't know if this making sense.

God is an all loving, all forgiving God, but He is also a JUST God, true to His word, and they don't acknowledge that God judges the wicked. How can He when he is only ALL loving?, according to them. So they make a graven image of Him to suit their needs on how they would like God to be. That is also very dangerous ground.

MuchLoved
J

 

[abigale]

Jesus came to make the lines to God straight. Anything that's a human endevor to project themselves into images of God is just false perception.

GOD IS HUGE!

 

[kisstheson]

Is God against art or representations of Jesus? As a Christian artist I had to ask myself this question.

Here' the commandmenet:

"You shall not have no gods accept Me. You shall not make yourself a carved image of any likeness of anything in Heaven or on earth beneath or in the waters under the earth. You shall not bow down or serve them." Exodus 20:3-5

At first glance one would say God is certainly against "depictions" of Christ.

Lets look at another chapter in Exodus. Here God told Moses to build the Ark of the Covenant or th eMercy seat. This was the very place where God was to meet with the people of Israel.

Exodus 37

"You shall make an ark of acacia wood, two and a half cubits long, one and a half cubits wide, and one and a half cubits high. 11 Plate it inside and outside with pure gold, and put a molding of gold around the top of it. 12 Cast four gold rings and fasten them on the four supports of the ark, two rings on one side and two on the opposite side. 13 Then make poles of acacia wood and plate them with gold. 14 These poles you are to put through the rings on the sides of the ark, for carrying it; 15 they must remain in the rings of the ark and never be withdrawn. 16 In the ark you are to put the commandments which I will give you. 17 2 "You shall then make a propitiatory of pure gold, two cubits and a half long, and one and a half cubits wide. 18 3 Make two cherubim of beaten gold for the two ends of the propitiatory, 19 fastening them so that one cherub springs direct from each end. 20 The cherubim shall have their wings spread out above, covering the propitiatory with them; they shall be turned toward each other, but with their faces looking toward the propitiatory. 21 This propitiatory you shall then place on top of the ark. In the ark itself you are to put the commandments which I will give you. 22 There I will meet you and there, from above the propitiatory, between the two cherubim on the ark of the commandments, I will tell you all the commands that I wish you to give the Israelites. 23 "You shall also make a table of acacia wood, two cubits long, a cubit wide, and a cubit and a half high. 24 Plate it with pure gold and make a molding of gold around it."
Here in the very place God was to meet with Moses God told him to make two cherubims out of pure gold. Cherubim are angels. Notice that in the commandment God strictly said not to make a graven image of anything in Heaven yet clearly cherubim are in Heaven. So is God contradicting Himself by telling Moses to make winged creatures out of pure gold? Is this idol worship? The answer is no.

The apostle Paul tells us in the book of Hebrews that everything in the tabernacle or the temple was a copy of the things in Heaven. So the angels on the Mercy Seat represent the angels in Heaven. When the High Priest came in the Holy of Holies once a year and bowed down before the Mercy Seat he certainly wasn't worshipping the carved images of the Cherubim. He was thinking about God.

Now the commandment further states, "You shall not bow down or serve them." Just as the priests did not bow down and serve the carved images of the cherubim which were images of something in Heaven, even so representation of Jesus are just that, representations of Jesus who is in Heaven. Are these images actually Jesus? Of course not. Are people worshipping the image, perhaps a few are as there are extremest in every religious group but most do not worship pictures of Jesus. It is art and serves as a reminder of the true Christ.

That's why God has blessed movies such as the Jesus Film produced by the Billy Graham Assocition and Campus Crusade For Christ which has been translated into many of languages and has been been shown internationally around the world for more at least twenty years. The film and has been insturmental in causing thousands of salvations. The movie depicts the life of Christ and has an actor portraying Jesus. The film is art, a living painting if you will.

Picture of Christ are meant to inspire us. And anything that would cause hearts to turn towards the Son of God cannot be wrong.

But if a persons concience is bothered by paintings of Christ they shouldn't look at them. However, the christian artist does not want to take away any part of Jesus' glory. In fact they feel that by using the talent that God has given them and painting Christ they are glorifying Him.

Respectfully,

Amy

 

[abigale]

Personally I don't get the connection your trying to make between angels and Christ/God.
Your first glance was more correct I think.
If a movie depicts the work of Christ i can see it helping others, but who am I to say what scripture says else. A picture of a man says nothing about Christ and who He is. Even Christ on a cross limits Him, so does a baby picture. There's no way to give justice to God in an image. But His Words are what count.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

The Age of Laodicia is all about everyone doing what is right in their own eyes, much like in the time of Judges. But more than that the Age of Laodicia is about human rights.
We all think we have a right to worship God any way we want, but conscience talks about the deep things of God.
The other thing we're told is not to put a stumbling block in front of young believers. So much of bible teachings are being eliminated on the slightest pretence of not being authentic. As Christians we need to be the best examples we can be and not cause any to stumble by exercising liberties that God may or may not have put in place.
Some things about God are actually written in stone.

 

[kisstheson]

You said,"If a movie depicts the work of Christ i can see it helping others,"

Movies=frame by frame pictures of a man portraying Jesus=art=pictures of Jesus=helping other people come to God.

The thing that is wrong is worshipping the movie and not Jesus Himself.

 

[micbmac]

Violation of the 2nd commandment takes 2 general forms: 1. worship of false Gods by means of religous statues and pix 2. Worship of the True God by means of religous statues and pics

This commandment is not telling us we cannot have pics and such of God and heavenly things. The key word is worship. We can't worship them. Just because I wear a cross or have a pic of Jesus or angels does not mean I am worshipping these objects. To me they are simply symbols that proclaim my everlasting love to God.

 

[abigale]

Is there a difference between idols, images and symbols?
- an idol is a material object that's worshipped. like the man who carves a piece of wood into a god and then he bows down and says "you will save me" even though he was the maker of it.
-an image is a representation of the imagination.
-a symbol is a visable representation of something else
In Native American culture the owl symbolizes the wisdom of the Great Spirit and the Eagle the Great Spirits strength.
the bible uses symbols to declare heavenly things in a way that people on earth can understand.
I don't know the mind of God I wish I did. I know we can't even imagine His glory.

 

[Eph429]

No, we could never image His glory, I think the closest it can come is a sunset. When movies depicting Jesus Christ are used for spreading the Gospel, then there is nothing wrong with it. Like "The Gospel According to Matthew".

There is no mention in the Bible on what Jesus looked like. I don't even recall a description of Him, except where it says that He had no comeliness that we would be attracted to Him.

Idols are dangerous, but not just idols that are mad made. Idols can be your car, TV program, your job, sport. Basically anything you put first in your life instead of our God.

My two cents worth

MuchLoved
J

 

[kisstheson]

Eph 4:29

"When movies depicting Jesus Christ are used for spreading the Gospel, then there is nothing wrong with it. Like "The Gospel According to Matthew".

Respectfully,

What's the difference between a movie about Jesus and a painting representing Jesus? The film makers, the actor and the painter are all working towards with the same goal, glorifying Jesus. An image be it on film or canvas is still an image.

Has God blessed the film The Gospel According to Matthew? Yes! I have seen it myself and it's a wonderful portrayal of the life of Christ. Does God bless my own efforts when I present dramas depicting scenes from the gospel? Yes. I have seen the fruit of what a dramatic presentaion can do to impact a person for Christ.

The issue is do we worship paintings and movies about Christ or are they simply inspirational tools that cause us to focus on the real Christ? If we are worshipping them then that is wrong.

 

[abigale]

I agree, although I'm honestly not sure the scriptures do. Jesus said if there not against us they're for us, so anyhting promoting Him is good? That doesn't sound right. Frustration sets in,,ugh

 

[abigale]

If it's depicting His work that presents it to the world like reading the bible does then I can see it, otherwise i can't. My 2 cents that counts for my conscience on it.

 

[kisstheson]

I agree, although I'm honestly not sure the scriptures do. Jesus said if there not against us they're for us, so anyhting promoting Him is good? That doesn't sound right. Frustration sets in,,ugh

True. I hear ya! I personally don't see a conflict as I already stated in my first post to you but if you feel uncomfortable with representations of Christ perhaps you shouldn't look at them. What do you think Abigale?

 

[kisstheson]

P.S. I didn't see your post. Sorry! Yes everyone should obey their concience.

 

[abigale]

True. I hear ya! I personally don't see a conflict as I already stated in my first post to you but if you feel uncomfortable with representations of Christ perhaps you shouldn't look at them. What do you think Abigale?

I think if it makes me uncomfortable then it makes others uncomfortable and you shouldn't put stumbling blocks up for others to fall over. Better not to have them at all.

 

[abigale]

True. I hear ya! I personally don't see a conflict as I already stated in my first post to you but if you feel uncomfortable with representations of Christ perhaps you shouldn't look at them. What do you think Abigale?

P.S. I didn't see your post. Sorry! Yes everyone should obey their concience.

We all speak too soon

I just think it's better to be biblically correct than politically correct. When in doubt error on the side of God. That's my preference ,

 

[Eph429]

Totally agree. It's when the image is worshipped that the lines are stepped over.