Graven images of Jesus

[ViaCrucis]

I`m not too big on Jesus' pictures although as I understand it most Jesus' pictures are based on the image on the shroud. The shroud may in fact be real in my opinion, if it is the pictures could portray what Jesus really looked like.

The Shroud of Turin is most likely a medieval forgery. Most images of Jesus are based on the 6th century Icon of Christ Pantokrator.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ozso]

Not an analogy, just stating a fact.
Based on your interpretation of the Scriptures, you would have removed all the images in the temple, many of which were "graven images". According to your interpretation, God instructed the Jews to break one of the 10 commandments multiple times when decorating the temple. Is that what you believe?

Even inside the Holy of Holies graven images resided:

 

[Pavel Mosko]

It was worshiped as a representative of the god it represented. It was a channel, a physical touchstone to bring the worshiper closer to the god it represented, and to bring the god closer to the worshiper. As I pointed out earlier, God said we were not to worship Him like that. It's a pagan practice, and not of God. We are privileged to come directly to our God either to worship or petition Him. Jesus Himself told the Samaritan woman we would worship Him "in spirit and in truth." Our faith should obviate the need of a physical representation to come before His presence. Now, do I believe what I say?

Well, actions speak louder ... . When I became convicted of this I destroyed about $300.00 worth of leather stamps. I used to make leather cases and tool bags for people. I could carve, but didn't really like it. So I traded a belt tool holder for a press and invested in a lot of stamps they could choose from. But I threw them out, along with several things I had made. One was a round waterproof case with a large, beautiful Thunderbird carved on it. Others just had stamps which I defaced. The stamps left raised images of things they should not have, so both stamp and the item had to go. And that was just the beginning- medals and devices from my military service, items from my service with the ambulance crew which had the Staff of Asclepius emblem- I had a really good but complex belt tool holder that I used for light veterinary work with livestock after they said no more leather on ambulances. But it had the emblem, so I defaced it. That was hard, because even after hard use it was a very nice piece of work. But since faith without works is dead, I did it. You get the picture. I do believe, and act on that belief, even though it cost me in those and many more ways.

Worship as you like, but you are bringing "strange fire" before the Lord when you incorporate idolatry into your service. And it is sin to do so in everyday life. God said so through His prophet Moses. If that doesn't convince you then who am I to say thee nay? Go for it; do as you please. But trying to convince me is a waste of time, I promise.

You are projecting yourself onto us.

I suggest you actually study the real Jewish roots of Christian worship, and stop letting your guilty conscience


Liturgica.com | Liturgics | Early Christian Liturgics

The Temple Roots of the Liturgy

https://www.historyofinformation.com/detail.php?entryid=1955#:~:text=The synagogue contains a forecourt,cycle, are conserved at Damascus.

Dura-Europos church - Wikipedia

 

[ozso]

One would think someone who's Messianic would already be up to speed regarding the Jewish roots of Christian worship.

"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:" John 3:14

 

[Pavel Mosko]

One would think someone who's Messianic would already be up to speed regarding the Jewish roots of Christian worship.

"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:" John 3:14

One would think that, but I am not surprised. Once in a while, I meet one that impresses me, but most of the time not. The movement according to Church history standards is very recent, and most are really Protestants as far as their actual background and thinking goes.

 

[ozso]

One would think that, but I am not surprised. Once in a while, I meet one that impresses me, but most of the time not. The movement according to Church history standards is extremely recent, and most are really Protestants as far as their background and thinking underneath with a thin coat of Jewish paint.

I might be older than it is. Quite honestly when I saw that it was formed in the 1960s, I pretty much disregarded it.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

I might be older than it is.

Well the rabbi who started the movement Jews for Jesus got around 1953-1955 and began evangelizing Jews in New York city immediately after that time, but the movement didn't really get going till the 1970s as far as getting some national and international fame and sparking other messianic type movements and bodies.


But still Pentecostalism is a new movement as far as Church history goes, and that movement is twice as old as this one.

 

[dzheremi]

Who do I need to petition to change the name of this subforum to "Anti-Christian Theology", so that it can be more accurate?

 

[RickReads]

The Shroud of Turin is most likely a medieval forgery. Most images of Jesus are based on the 6th century Icon of Christ Pantokrator.

-CryptoLutheran

Based on what I've seen the tests that were used to claim the shroud is a forgery were debunked by more advanced testing. Sloppy painters were the cause.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

[QUOTE="The Liturgist, post: 76713778, member: 424341"<Snip> Indeed Lutherans deny that any sacrifice is offered to God during the Divine Liturgy, rather, they see the Liturgy as Gottesdienst, that is to say, God offering Himself to us.

<Snip>.[/QUOTE]

Just to clarify...

The celebration of the Mass is both Sacrificial and Sacramental in the sense that what we do in the liturgy is termed "Sacrificial" and what God does for us is "Sacramental".

 

[Strong in Him]

why are there falsely so many unbiblical graven images of Jesus in so called church buildings, online, in memes, and wherever else that has Jesus as white with long blonde/gold hair (long hair is a sin for a man 1 Corinthians 11:14)

1 Corinthians hadn't been written when Jesus was on earth.
Samson had long hair - in fact he was commanded not to cut it.

yet when it comes to images of Jesus so many people still falsely use unbiblical images of a made up Jesus online and this is falsely accepted that Jesus was white blonde long hair. why?

how do we know what Jesus looked like?

We don't, and many people who have tried to depict him do so according to their own culture - e.g for Africans, he would be black.
I'm not sure that it's a sin to imagine what he might have looked like - as long as we don't think the image is real and worship that.

even if there is a true and accurate depiction out there among the thousands that is still a violation of Gods written commands to use any depiction of Jesus any color, race, ethnicity it is all a sin, graven image and idolatry, and very offensive.

Only if you worship it.
In Isaiah's prophecy he says, "he had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him; nothing in his appearance that we might desire him", Isaiah 53:2.
Why is it "very offensive" to imagine how Jesus might have looked, when we are almost given a description?
Yes, Hollywood are going to cast their leading actors in the role - that is an attempt to get people to watch their films. Even that is not wrong - if it leads to people watching a Biblical, or Gospel, film.

 

[prodromos]

(long hair is a sin for a man 1 Corinthians 11:14)

The Greek word "κομα" refers not simply to long hair, but hair that has been styled or ornamented. Whereas it was common for women to have braided or elaborately styled hair, it was not something that men would do as it was considered a feminine trait.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Really? Which pope, and when?

Yeah. Can't celebrate the coming of God Incarnate, the Savior of Humanity, the Creator of the Universe, as though it was something special. We should follow the example of the non-Christian world and ignore it. Right?

May have looked kinda like this, you reckon? View attachment 316127

Nice and I also got 2 t-shirts with that Hagia Sophia icon of Christ the Pantocrator, from an Orthodox vendor on Amazon a few years back, as can be seen in my avatar here.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Do you have pictures of your family or friends? Is that a graven image as insult to God because they are made in the image and likeness of God?

Icons and statues reminds us of heavenly things.

lol yeah I was wondering of that sort of thing myself.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

The Shroud of Turin is most likely a medieval forgery. Most images of Jesus are based on the 6th century Icon of Christ Pantokrator.

-CryptoLutheran

I've heard stuff on it, all over the place, but mostly stuff verify it than not.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Well it took a while, but I found something I was look for in reference to the stuff going on in the thread, saint Isaac's (the Syrian / of Nineveh) writing about traditional Christian liturgical practice written because of the heretical gnostic sect of the Messalians, who often seem a lot like some radical Protestants (especially antisacramental Charismatics)!

Messalianism - OrthodoxWiki

https://jbburnett.com/resources/alfeyev_prayer-in-isaac-syr.pdf

 

[The Liturgist]

Well it took a while, but I found something I was look for in reference to the stuff going on in the thread, saint Isaac's (the Syrian / of Nineveh) writing about traditional Christian liturgical practice written because of the heretical gnostic sect of the Messalians, who often seem a lot like some radical Protestants (especially antisacramental Charismatics)!

Messalianism - OrthodoxWiki

https://jbburnett.com/resources/alfeyev_prayer-in-isaac-syr.pdf

The author of that work, Metropolitan Hilarion Alfeyev, is also a brilliant composer, and is in charge of managing the ecumenical relations of the Russian Orthodox Church.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

The author of that work, Metropolitan Hilarion Alfeyev, is also a brilliant composer, and is in charge of managing the ecumenical relations of the Russian Orthodox Church.

I had a lot of problems Googling this.... use to be easy finding Russian Orthodox articles on this sort of thing. Almost posted a thread on the Ancient Way asking about this.