Grape Juice?

[eldermike]

I don't think God is limited by what we bring to communion.

 

[Knight]

I don't think God is limited by what we bring to communion.

Agreed

 

[Force]

How about the simple fact that grape juice tastes better!

And I could see the alcoholic thing..........(trying to get my uncle over it) Once they give it up they need to stay away from it ALL together. I would hate for a craving of alcohol to come up during communion for an alcoholic that would stink!

 

[Serapha]

HI there!

I suggest that some historical references might clear up the questions here.


Historical texts record that the standard mix of wine and water for the purification of the water was 20 parts water to one part wine. For food to be blessed (not unclean or defiled), wine had to be mixed with water. There are references to both 3:1 and 10:1, but a requirement remains, the wine had to be diluted, and it was a similar product to grape juice as we know it today.

To be able to bless the wine at the wedding in Cana, the wine had to be a mix with water, probably a three parts water mix, and not the strong drink that many might suggest. The Hebrew text has different words for the product of the vine concerning yayin (for wine) distinguished from shekar for "strong drink". (Shabbath 77a states that wine that is not three parts water, is not "wine") To serve a wine that was not blessed at a wedding would have been unthinkable.

For the passover, referencing Pesahim 108b, each Jew was to drink four cups of wine at a mixture of three parts water to one part wine. Thus, if we are to follow in the directions that Christ gave for the last supper, the appropriate remembrance of Christ's blood would be the equivalent of grape juice or dilute wine, but it remains a product of the vine, or the harvest of the fruits.

The second harvest was of the grain, and the unleavend bread was used at passover in remembrance of the Exodus. Many churches will honor the remembrance of Christ's body with unleavened bread.

I hope this helps in your understanding of the Last Supper of Our Lord Jesus Christ.


~malaka~

 

[WesleyJohn]

Most churches will honor the remembrance of Christ's body with unleavened bread.

I would have thought that to be true before this thread, however it appears (unless I misunderstood something) that the Eastern Churches do not use unleavened bread. While Eastern Orthodoxy probably makes up less than 50% of Christendom, I know of other Western churches which do not use unleavened bread...so I'm not sure that I would be willing to use the word 'most' in that sentence.

But, I don't have statistics in front of me....

Peace,

WJ

 

[Serapha]

Hi there!

I have edited to post to read "many" because I don't have the statistice in front of me either...


Thanks

~malaka~

 

[WesleyJohn]

Peace!

WJ

 

[suzie]

Communion is believed to be symbolic in many Christian Churches and therefore it is not about the elements but the gesture of symbolism of taking "bread" and "wine". That may constitute juice and crackers or baked bread, but the message is the same.

 

[WesleyJohn]

Communion is also considered to be sacramental in many Christian Churches.

It is also considered the 'Real Presence' in many Christian Churches.

 

[suzie]

Then those would not be the churches I would be addressing.

 

[Godzman]

be careful to accept alcohol for it can be abused just ask the kids who are hurting from it.

Protestants can reach out to young people more for they offer them delverance from that abuse

 

[chosen1975]

Ilike grape juice , have been an alcoholic, But wine during communion might not be a bad thing (drool,drool) anyway I probably don't need to taste any alchohol had enough problems God is Good

 

[Karl - Liberal Backslider]

be careful to accept alcohol for it can be abused just ask the kids who are hurting from it.

I bet Our Lord is even now slapping His forehead and saying "D'oh! I never thought of that when I used wine!"

Protestants can reach out to young people more for they offer them delverance from that abuse

You assume that all protestants are tee-total? None of the ones I know are...

 

[Acceptance]

I bet Our Lord is even now slapping His forehead and saying "D'oh! I never thought of that when I used wine!"

With sincere respect, I seriously doubt it. God is perfect, He doesn't make mistakes.

Blessings,

 

[Rechtgläubig]

We use grape wine, but we will make individual exceptions for people with health concerns. People with alcohol abuse issues may recieve unfermented grape juice or even watered down wine.

 

[suzie]

What we use for communion isnt the importance. It is the state of the heart and mind that is important.

 

[Bruce S]

Peter,

I've heard the 'protect the alcoholics' thought before, but it just seems like we don't really have any business changing what Christ Himself told us to do simply to accomodate a couple people who may possibly be set off again by tasting wine (plus, they could always just participate in the bread if they were that worried about it).

Thanks

As a recovering alcoholic I might have a few thoughts on this topic that are pertinant.

First, ONE DRINK, no matter how small, from what source, will trigger in a real alcholic the relapse scenario. It triggers the desire for MORE, MORE, MORE. Frightening to those who have this propensity.

I ALWAYS "test" the "wine" at a new church, dipping a pinkyfinger in and dabbing the end of my tounge. If there is alcohol in the wine, then I pass.

Sure, we could just abstain, and I have when finding alcohol in the wine, it is not a massive thing for me. But partaking fully in the communion service is deeply moving, and being left out diminishes the experience.

And, don't forget, many of those partaking, are under the age of 21, and they too, are legally precluded from indulging in alcohol. Perhaps a church could be cited under the statues for underage serving, by those who hate the church.

Generally, the grape juice does the job, not identially, but the entire communion service is SYMBOLIC to Protestants, and thus, you could have grape juice being SYMBOLIC of the real watered wine used at Passover feasts. There they take copious quantities, and use ... I believe ... FOUR glasses of wine in the entire Passover reinactment of the Exodus.

So, grape juice does the job, and allows for all who want to to fully participate.

 

[Acceptance]

Perhaps a church could be cited under the statues for underage serving, by those who hate the church.

This is silly. It's not as if they're passing out full wine glasses to everyone in church. In America there is freedom of religion, and for 2000 years Christianity (which BTW the US is founded on) has used wine as part of their celebration of the Eucharist. By this thought anyone under 21 should never consume a dose of NyQuil either, as it has way more alcohol than a small sip of wine.
But you're right, stranger things have happened (don't forget in Cali, you can't say "under God" when reciting the pledge - give me a break, what a I-think-I'm-being-PC joke!)

but the entire communion service is SYMBOLIC to Protestants, and thus, you could have grape juice being SYMBOLIC of the real watered wine used at Passover feasts.

Ahhhh.... [lightbulb goes on] very well said. This is something I had never though of, you make a great point.

 

[Rechtgläubig]

but the entire communion service is SYMBOLIC to Protestants

Symbolic to some Protestants, not all.


The text says "fruit of the vine". That is the important thing, not the quantity of alcohol.

 

[Karl - Liberal Backslider]

With sincere respect, I seriously doubt it. God is perfect, He doesn't make mistakes.

Blessings,

Acceptance, me old fruit, do turn on your irony meter