Grape Juice?

[Acceptance]

Jesus' first miracle was turning water into wine, at an event where people were likely already drunk. While I understand that drunkenness is not good (and yes I've read about it in the Bible) it's not as if a sip of it at the Eucharist, while doing so in honor of Him, is sinful...right? So my question is: What is the reason for using grape juice in lieu of wine during the Eucharist?

 

[Matrona]

I think they use grape juice just because it's cheaper and easier to obtain than wine.

By the way, while I'm on the subject, I'm Eastern Orthodox, so I'm not too familiar with Western church stuff anymore. Can someone tell me why the Western Christians use unleavened bread/wafers in communion? I'm just curious. Thank you.

 

[WesleyJohn]

I would say that we also use grape juice in order to help protect the alcoholic from stumbling.

I would say that we use unleavened bread because Jesus instituted Holy Communion during the Passover meal, which calls for unleavened bread.

Peace,

WJ

 

[Matrona]

That makes sense about the grape juice. Although the Orthodox Church has always used wine, and no alcoholic has ever been recorded as having relapsed due to communion wine in the entire history of the church. Also, communion wine is not strong. Nor has the communion bread caused a problem for people with a wheat allergy. I don't know why, nor do I know if anyone has taken scrupulous records in this regard, but this is just the way the cookie has crumbled as far as our history goes.

The reason we leaven our bread is because it symbolizes how God leavens our lives, and because we see the Eucharist not as a recreation or rebirth of Passover, but as a participation in the Mystical Supper itself, partaking of the Body and Blood of Christ. I don't know of anything wrong with doing it either way, really, whichever way flips your goat.

 

[Peter]

A short biography of Thomas Welch and his direct influence on American Protestant Christianity and it's practices. Thomas B. Welch, M.D., the founder of Welch Grape Juice Company, was born in England in 1825. A devout Christian and staunch prohibitionist, Dr. Thomas B. Welch did not like wine being used in his church's communion service. In 1869 he decided to try developing a non-alcoholic substitution. Dr. Welch had an ample supply of grapes on hand, because he lived in the town of Vineland, New Jersey (named for its many vineyards), and it was common for him to receive bushels of the fruit as payment for dental services. Experimenting at night, Welch tried to create a grape beverage that would not ferment and become alcoholic. Fermentation, the dentist knew, occurred when the natural sugar in grape juice was converted to alcohol by yeast particles that collected in the fruit. To prevent this, the yeast would have to be destroyed. Welch accomplished this by placing bottles of grape juice in pots of boiling water, and allowing the heat to kill the yeast. His creation was called "Dr. Welch's Unfermented Wine," and the dentist tried to persuade churches to use it as the communion beverage. But he met with great resistance. Wine was a key part of the communion ceremony, and replacing it with anything else would be irreligious. Welch, was very disappointed, because he had been temperance-minded since childhood. His father, Abraham, a Watertown, New York merchant, was a hardworking family man who occasionally liked to drink whiskey from a jug he kept in the cellar. This led to terrible fights with Mrs. Welch, who thought alcohol was from the devil. His parents' arguments most likely helped shape young Thomas' belief in the evil nature of alcohol. This conviction was further strengthened as he grew more active in the church, and became a minister for several years before becoming a dentist.

The prohibitionist dentist kept Welch busy serving the cause of temperance. He became a self-appointed warden of Vineland's dry law, seeing to it that anybody who sold intoxicants within the city limits was prosecuted. During 1870-71 he led crusades in the neighboring communities of Millville and Bridgeton, to convert the towns to Vineland's prohibitionist ways.​

 

[Acceptance]

Peter,

Holy-ohhhhhh-Batman! That makes a lot more sense to me. You don't by any chance have a citation for that do you? I would like to pass this on to a curious friend, but would like to cite a book or something.

I've heard the 'protect the alcoholics' thought before, but it just seems like we don't really have any business changing what Christ Himself told us to do simply to accomodate a couple people who may possibly be set off again by tasting wine (plus, they could always just participate in the bread if they were that worried about it).

Thanks

 

[Godzman]

well I take the grape juice, never have taken alcohol in my life. Anyway, I don't have a problem with the grape juice, it also fits in with the teaching of not getting drunk for that is a sin. The bible is clear on that.

 

[Acceptance]

Godzman,

Of course it is your own decision if you want to consume alcohol or not. And while I agree that the bible is clear on not getting drunk, I must respectfully, but strongly disagree with your other comment. Doing as Christ did and having a sip of wine at the Eucharist does not fall into the category of getting drunk. The two are very different.

 

[Godzman]

Godzman,

Of course it is your own decision if you want to consume alcohol or not. And while I agree that the bible is clear on not getting drunk, I must respectfully, but strongly disagree with your other comment. Doing as Christ did and having a sip of wine at the Eucharist does not fall into the category of getting drunk. The two are very different.

thats not what I meant, anyway, basically that is what they drank was wine. I have no desire to drink, but maybe a little wine for my stomachsake.

 

[Acceptance]

Godzman,
:oSorry for the misinterpretation!

 

[Peter]

I got this info from the following source:

http://www.ohiosbdc-ysu.com/Location/Guide/Oscar_Mayer/Wrigley/Welch_s/welch_s.html

You can go to the Welch's web site and confirm. They have the same story in much condensed form:

www.welchs.com

I originally heard this from a friend of mine who is a wine steward and devout christian.

Within the Orthodox faith, real wine is used. However, according to ancient practice, documented from the 2nd century, warm water is added to it to "settle" it. The body of Christ (Bread) is broken into pieces and placed into the wine and both are served together. The amount of alcohol within a tiny piece of bread would be very minor.

It's a simple fact of history that every major denomination used real wine up to Dr. Welch's discovery. The natural yeast that is within grapes begins to ferment as soon as the grape is squeezed.

There was a sect in the early centuries that did not use wine. They were called the Encratities (sp?) and were denounced as a heretical group by the church.

Peace.

Peter

 

[Lotar]

Protestants don't believe in the "real presence", for us it is a time to reflect and remember. We could use milk and oreos if we wanted to
Grape juice is just a cheaper, unfermented version of wine.

 

[WesleyJohn]

/me would like to point out that not all protestants "could use milk and oreos if we wanted to"

For one, I can't imagine wanting to...

and two, even if I could ...some of us have strict statements in our handbooks outlining what we may use for the celebration of Holy Communion.

Peace,

WJ

 

[Peter]

Lotar wrote:

Protestants don't believe in the "real presence", for us it is a time to reflect and remember. We could use milk and oreos if we wanted to




Which only goes to show how far Protestant thinking has changed within itself since the time of the Reformers. None of the Reformers would think of doing what you outlined above.

Peace.

Peter

 

[Godzman]

i think this is of minor consequence to the overall question, do you believe in the Salvation from sin and death?

argue all you want, all denominations in my eyes need to work closer together, as long as they teach Salvation by the blood of Jesus.

 

[eldermike]

Two questions:
Can God change Grape Juice into wine?
Did Welch do a bad thing by inventing a process to keep grape juice from fermenting?
These do not require an answer.

And; just a reminder. We are not debating here.

 

[Terri]

Wow, that is a great story about Mr. Welch.

He was very blessed that God honored his desire to have unfermented fruit of the vine and gave him the knowledge to produce it.

I have a bottle of Welch's grape juice in my refrigerator right now. I use it for communion although I have nothing against using wine.

It's great to know the story behind Mr. Welch's creation.

 

[I can eat 50 eggs]

Protestants don't believe in the "real presence", for us it is a time to reflect and remember. We could use milk and oreos if we wanted to
Grape juice is just a cheaper, unfermented version of wine.

wow, really?

please do a little more research next time. I'm pretty sure Mr. Luther would disagree with you, and a few million lutherans today. In fact, mr. luther went on quite a little rant about the subject, and wound up carving up a nice table over the real presence.

it was done as much to be different from the catholics as anything.

 

[ByGrace]

I am a born again Christian and I do not think that I could ever use Oreos and Milk or anything similar. I dont know about whether I think the wine needs to be fermented but Jesus did say that it was the fruit of the vine and the bread is an obvious one.

 

[Knight]

I think there is another possibility for the use of grape juice that has not been mentioned.

Some people are voilently allergic to alchocol. Relatively few are allergic to grape juice. I don't think the small amount you recieve at Communion would cause an addict to relapse.

The milk and oreos point is just ridiculous.