Grape Juice Communions

TheCosmicGospel · May 2, 2007

How many Lutheran churches offer grape juice alternatives along with the wine? Usually when I pastor a congregation, the communion practice is inherited and established by the congregation. And in my churches, it has always been offered to those for reasons such as is the case most often, pregnant mothers.

AALC suggests at least officially, "If you can't take wine, then bread is fine." I have never seen this practiced anywhere. Has anyone here?

Peace,
Cos

DaRev · May 2, 2007

TheCosmicGospel said:
How many Lutheran churches offer grape juice alternatives along with the wine? Usually when I pastor a congregation, the communion practice is inherited and established by the congregation. And in my churches, it has always been offered to those for reasons such as is the case most often, pregnant mothers.

AALC suggests at least officially, "If you can't take wine, then bread is fine." I have never seen this practiced anywhere. Has anyone here?

Peace,
Cos

I, too, have inherited a situation where white grape juice is available for two individuals. One has extrememly low tolerance to alcohol due to a liver condition. One young girl takes medication that reacts to alcohol. And I have a young girl being confirmed this year who has an allergy to alcohol (even the smell of it causes her face to turn blue).
I would not have made that option available since it goes against the Lord's insititution. I've known people with medical conditions or even recovering alcoholics be able to receive the blood of Christ by other means including intincture.

DogMom · May 2, 2007

I personally haven't seen it in the LC-MS churches I've been to. I can say that I'm allergic to...something...in the wine (I'm not sure it's sulfas, since I have the same reaction to certain other alcoholic beverages as well) and to make sure I get both elements without triggering a reaction, I use intinction.

What I personally would like to know is why more churches that have considered the grapejuice option don't offer intinction as an option. You get very little wine that way.

QuiltAngel · May 2, 2007

I don't know intinction is not considered. It may be that the person requesting no wine won't even consider that as an option.

I have noticed lately the issue with pregnant women. I know the doctors say no to drinking. It is then decided by the woman or those around them that that means no to wine in communion. I don't think they are thinking that one sip once a month does not consitute "drinking alcohol."

Back when I was pregnant with the oldest, Dr. said no to drinking. I asked him about the wine for communion. That it was a sip once a month. He had no problem with it. It is the drinking that we think of in social activities that is the problem.

Well, that is my two cents.

seajoy · May 2, 2007

DaRev said:
I, too, have inherited a situation where white grape juice is available for two individuals. One has extrememly low tolerance to alcohol due to a liver condition. One young girl takes medication that reacts to alcohol. And I have a young girl being confirmed this year who has an allergy to alcohol (even the smell of it causes her face to turn blue).
I would not have made that option available since it goes against the Lord's insititution. I've known people with medical conditions or even recovering alcoholics be able to receive the blood of Christ by other means including intincture.

My son-in-law has some alcoholism in his family, and has decided not to ever drink alcohol. That said....he still partakes of Christ's blood in, with, and under the wine, as he says that is biblical. Other than communion, he has never drunk alcohol.

I think folks can go overboard with this....and intinction seems like the best option for those with health problems.

Zecryphon · May 2, 2007

DogMom said:
I personally haven't seen it in the LC-MS churches I've been to. I can say that I'm allergic to...something...in the wine (I'm not sure it's sulfas, since I have the same reaction to certain other alcoholic beverages as well) and to make sure I get both elements without triggering a reaction, I use intinction.

What I personally would like to know is why more churches that have considered the grapejuice option don't offer intinction as an option. You get very little wine that way.

I've heard that intinction leads to all sorts of illness and spreading of germs. I found this on a website that discusses Intinction. While it seems to be true that the risk of infection from drinking from a common cup is minimal the same is not true for Intinction.

The following excerpt is taken from: http://catholica.pontifications.net/?p=102

"But what about intinction? Is it safer or more hygienic? The answer is no. Not only does intinction not protect the individual communicant from whatever germs might be present in the sacred wine, but it is probably the best way to contaminate the wine with germs. Why? Because hands are a primary repository of infectious agents. Pathogens are transferred to the wafer by the altar guild member who puts them into the ciborium, by the priest who distributes the sacrament, by the communicant in whose palm the consecrated wafer is placed. The communicant then dips the Host into the chalice, thus completing the transmission of pathogens to the sacred wine–sometimes in the process even plunging his or her fingers into the species. All of which provides a strong reason to proscribe the practice of intinction within the public liturgy of the Church; but when we remember that intinction is a clear departure from the Supper’s dominical mandate, then its proscription becomes compelling."

seajoy · May 2, 2007

Then an individual cup can be used.

TheCosmicGospel · May 2, 2007

See how the pastor rules his flock! If he should decide to follow God's Word and change things, he would be out on the curb tomorrow. This is why your tub has cracked caulk pastor, to remind you of your place and to keep you humble. It is also another gift from God. Rejoice!

Interesting to see how the RCC does it. The communicant does not dip the host in the wine and give self-intincture. Intinction easily is just a matter of discussing it with the pastor ahead of time. He would simply take the bread from you, dip it, and rest it on your tongue.

Intinction is commonly done for folks at the nursing home. But kudos for the AALC position which I have never seen in the LCMS.

"While heretics in the ancient Church frequently used substitutes for wine, the Christian Church has always condemned such surrogates as not permissable.....The objection against the use of wine in the Holy Supper would never have been raised, had not fanatacism declared the use of wine objectionable in general, contrary to the clear words of Scripture, 1 Tim. 5:23; Eccl. 9:7; Ps. 104:15."

Christian Dogmatics, J. T. Mueller, p. 525

Peace,
Cos

DaRev · May 2, 2007

TheCosmicGospel said:
See how the pastor rules his flock! If he should decide to follow God's Word and change things, he would be out on the curb tomorrow. This is why your tub has cracked caulk pastor, to remind you of your place and to keep you humble. It is also another gift from God. Rejoice!

I'm not sure how to take this.

TheCosmicGospel · May 2, 2007

I guess I was reflecting on your "caulk" experience as being representative of what happens to many in the ministry. These do become gifts in time if we allow them to. I had the occassion to give the sermon for my father's 50th anniversary in the ministry. It was full of these examples. But it was all about God's grace too and how He even uses these little things in life. Like staring in a communion tray where we place "grape juicers".

At all times, we are to have thick skin, have a sense of humility and humor, and smile. It is not easy. Your job is hard enough. So if you feel I was "testing" you, forgive me.

Peace bro,
Cos

Zecryphon · May 2, 2007

seajoy said:
Then an individual cup can be used.

But some people see the communal or shared cup as an important symbol of the Lord's Supper, since the disciples all drank from the same cup. It seems to me that if you want to change any aspect of the Lord's Supper in an effort to keep it as sanitary as possible, someone is going to be on hand to object to it.

seajoy · May 2, 2007

Zecryphon said:
But some people see the communal or shared cup as an important symbol of the Lord's Supper, since the disciples all drank from the same cup. It seems to me that if you want to change any aspect of the Lord's Supper in an effort to keep it as sanitary as possible, someone is going to be on hand to object to it.

well, they are already taking grape juice in a separate cup....so those folks , at least, shouldn't mind.

KimLCMS · May 2, 2007

I know that our church offer non-alcoholic wine for those who need it for whatever reason. I never really thought about it though. I know you are supposed to use wine and not grape juice.

This is probably a stupid question......here goes

Is non-alcoholic wine the same thing as grape juice or is there a difference?

seajoy · May 2, 2007

KimLCMS said:
This is probably a stupid question......here goes

Is non-alcoholic wine the same thing as grape juice or is there a difference?

I think maybe it just has fizz? I'm not sure.

DaRev · May 2, 2007

KimLCMS said:
Is non-alcoholic wine the same thing as grape juice or is there a difference?

Basically the same thing. It depends, though. Some "non-alcoholic" products do contain trace amounts of alcohol. It depends on how the product is made and how the alcohol is removed.

TheCosmicGospel · May 2, 2007

I have also heard from real wine-technos that some wines are not even "wines". Manichevitz comes to mind but not real sure. Think the true wines had to be 11% but the light variety was something like 7.5%.

But then how far do you really want to go? It does not say that Jesus passed out wafers either. Most use disposable cups. Horror of it all.

Still like the new rubric. "If you can't take the wine, the bread is just fine."

Peace,
Cos

DaRev · May 2, 2007

TheCosmicGospel said:
Most use disposable cups. Horror of it all.

Don't even get me started on that! It's been the cause of a couple knock-down-drag-outs here.

At least I got them to rinse them first and pour the water out on the ground before they throw them out. (Our sacristy does not have a piscina, either. )

seajoy · May 2, 2007

DaRev said:
At least I got them to rinse them first and pour the water out on the ground before they throw them out. (Our sacristy does not have a piscina, either. )

Uh-oh, now I need to ask what our church does. I never thought about this.

TheCosmicGospel · May 2, 2007

We're not being too "residual Catholic" about the unused elements here are we? From a molecular argument, not sure what rinsing is doing either. Then it flows down the drain with the dishwater. Follow this one rule: "Do not upset the altar guild!" They will stand on their haunches, believe me.

Sometimes the joy of pastoring is drinking the leftover wine. Oops, giving away some secrets now.

More you think about this stuff, more just keeps coming.

In giving communion, you run out of one of the elements at the table. More are brought out. Are these now still to be used as consecrated elements? Did they "hear" you from the back room in the communion drawer during the first consecration?

Peace,
Cos

DaRev · May 2, 2007

TheCosmicGospel said:
We're not being too "residual Catholic" about the unused elements here are we? From a molecular argument, not sure what rinsing is doing either. Then it flows down the drain with the dishwater.

The water is poured on the ground. The container that is used for this is not used for anything else. It's not "residual Catholic," it's proper reverence for that which has been set aside for Christ's use.

Follow this one rule: "Do not upset the altar guild!" They will stand on their haunches, believe me.

But when I offered to buy the glass cups, they were in favor of it. My head elder is the one I got into the shouting match over it with.

Sometimes the joy of pastoring is drinking the leftover wine. Oops, giving away some secrets now.

I do that at the altar, to the chagrin of some.

In giving communion, you run out of one of the elements at the table. More are brought out. Are these now still to be used as consecrated elements? Did they "hear" you from the back room in the communion drawer during the first consecration?

New elements that are brought out are consecrated at the altar before they are distributed.

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