• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Grand Canyon Disproves Creationism

Dale

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Apr 14, 2003
7,530
1,364
72
Sebring, FL
✟858,916.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat


Omega:
<< To try and link species b y the shape of the head is absurd and not even close to scientific. >>

Measurements are evidence, no matter what you think. What evidence would you accept, as I asked earlier? Besides, it's not a matter of linking species. There are massive numbers of species, genera, etc. that can be linked this way.

<< When on uses "perhaps" in their explanation, you might as well stop. >>

Scientists are cautious in their conclusions, an excellent trait. The absence of this habit among creationists is why no one listens to them.

<< It is amusing to me than any educated person would accept such a fairy tale. >>

Why would I believe that you are educated? You show no sign of knowing the Bible, or anything about the modern world.

What effort have you made to understand views different from your own? I have read an eleven hundred page book called The Evolution Cruncher, sold by one of my local churches. It piles error on top of error on top of error with no end in sight, yet creationists thought it was the last word.
 
Upvote 0

Dale

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Apr 14, 2003
7,530
1,364
72
Sebring, FL
✟858,916.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat


This thread was started to talk about the Grand Canyon.

Have you ever been to the Grand Canyon?

How do you know more than the experts?
 
Upvote 0

omega2xx

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 20, 2017
890
103
93
Knoxville Tn.
✟115,085.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Widowed
This thread was started to talk about the Grand Canyon.

I am talking about it

Have you ever been to the Grand Canyon?

Yes, have you? A river could not have cause it.

How do you know more than the experts?

No one is a real expert on how the grand canyon was formed and all the so called experts
don't agree.
 
Upvote 0

omega2xx

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 20, 2017
890
103
93
Knoxville Tn.
✟115,085.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Widowed
 
Reactions: BroRoyVa79
Upvote 0

omega2xx

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 20, 2017
890
103
93
Knoxville Tn.
✟115,085.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Widowed
Living beings mutate, mutations change DNA which subsequently changes our proteins and morphological development.

Mutations do not change the species. When mutation cause the person or the animal to become an albino, they remain the exact same species. The human remains homo sapian and the animal remain the same species as its parents. You know "after their kind."
 
Reactions: BroRoyVa79
Upvote 0

Dale

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Apr 14, 2003
7,530
1,364
72
Sebring, FL
✟858,916.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat


Since you don't respect the experts, just look at a few things anyone can see.

Have you ever noticed that a snake looks a lot like a lizard that has lost its legs?

It's obvious to me and the experts agree but they are a bit more elaborate. They say that snakes evolved from lizards who lived on muddy land where legs aren't much help. They lost the hind legs first and the front legs later. Even today, rattlesnakes are sometimes born with little tiny front legs.

Think about it.
 
Reactions: Job 33:6
Upvote 0

omega2xx

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 20, 2017
890
103
93
Knoxville Tn.
✟115,085.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Widowed

Close only counts in horse shoes and hand granades. I have great respect for the experts, but experts give evidence for what they say. That is what makes the experts.

Has anyone ever seen a snake give birth to a lizard? Has anyone ever seen a snake give birth to a different species of snake? Has anyone ever seen a rattlesnake give birth to another rattlesnake? Instead of comparing similarities, explain how it is possible genetically.

I think I have thought about this subject more than you have. That i one reason I reject evolution. What makes you think time will change the laws of genetics? It hasns't changed the laws of any other scientific discipline.
 
Reactions: BroRoyVa79
Upvote 0

Dale

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Apr 14, 2003
7,530
1,364
72
Sebring, FL
✟858,916.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat


How about a hundred mutations?
How about a thousand mutations?

It isn't obvious that a chihuahua is the same species as a St. Bernard, but they are. Yet the various breeds of dog could become separate species given enough time. As much as they vary, the various breeds of dog have all come about in a few thousand years.
 
Upvote 0

omega2xx

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 20, 2017
890
103
93
Knoxville Tn.
✟115,085.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Widowed
How about a hundred mutations?
How about a thousand mutations?

How about a gazillion? Time will not change the laws of genetics.

mutations have no final evolutionary effect---Pierre-Paul Grasse(an evolutioinist).

It isn't obvious that a chihuahua is the same species as a St. Bernard, but they are.

Answer your won question. What species are chichuahua? What species is St. Bernard?

Yet the various breeds of dog could become separate species given enough time. As much as they vary, the various breeds of dog have all come about in a few thousand years.

The various breeds of dogs are still dogs. Where is the evolution in that. What did dogs evole into?
 
Upvote 0

JDD_III

Active Member
May 29, 2017
60
27
South-east
✟32,940.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married

Have you read the Genesis account? Have snakes always been legless?

Which came first? The snake or the lizard? Do you think creationistic views are not comfortable with the idea of loss of function?

Can you prove this claim? Why wouldn't mutations produce new species?

Define a species? I would say, clue: species does not necessarily = kind.
 
Upvote 0

Job 33:6

Well-Known Member
Jun 15, 2017
9,507
3,225
Hartford, Connecticut
✟365,920.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
@JDD_III

A species being a genetically unique group of organisms, with less genetic variation between groups than differences of a genus level, but moreso than differences among a family (cousins, second cousins, third cousins etc.).
 
Upvote 0

Dale

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Apr 14, 2003
7,530
1,364
72
Sebring, FL
✟858,916.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat


The inability of creationists to define what a Biblical kind is has been remarked on CF before. A Biblical kind apparently means whatever creationists want it to mean at the moment.
 
Reactions: Jadis40
Upvote 0

JDD_III

Active Member
May 29, 2017
60
27
South-east
✟32,940.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The inability of creationists to define what a Biblical kind is has been remarked on CF before. A Biblical kind apparently means whatever creationists want it to mean at the moment.
And there are 26 different versions of species according to one non-creationist source:
Species Concepts in Modern Literature

The problem is not one simply for creationists. The problem with kind is we cannot go back to the beginning and see what defined kinds. Also if genetic entropy is true, it is likely that what we see now is very different to what was true in the beginning. E.g. there was likely greater ability to reproduce with large variation among offspring vs today. This is why as well for a period of time humans could mate with immediate relatives without detrimental genetic defects.

Maybe these days a tiger and lion can mate but their offspring are unable to. It is perfectly reasonable to assume that there might have been one ancestor of both a tiger and lion in the beginning and that the genetic information was created in one kind to allow for those and other species.

So in that case you could say a kind was a family. Button are trying to shoehorn in a different classification (unknown) with what modern science classifies now which is problematic.

As said though, even modern science cannot always agree on things like species classification. People disagree - that doesn't really prove anything.
 
Reactions: BroRoyVa79
Upvote 0

Ancient of Days

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Nov 29, 2017
1,136
859
Mn.
✟161,189.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
You copy and pasted that from a textbook didn't you... I can tell by the usual evolutionist logical fallacy's.
 
Reactions: BroRoyVa79
Upvote 0

Dale

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Apr 14, 2003
7,530
1,364
72
Sebring, FL
✟858,916.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
You copy and pasted that from a textbook didn't you... I can tell by the usual evolutionist logical fallacy's.


No, I did not copy that from a text, except for the part in quotes.

If you think I need to, you have no idea who you are talking to.

If there are any logical fallacies in the OP, please point them out.
 
Upvote 0

omega2xx

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 20, 2017
890
103
93
Knoxville Tn.
✟115,085.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Widowed
No, I did not copy that from a text, except for the part in quotes.

If you think I need to, you have no idea who you are talking to.

If there are any logical fallacies in the OP, please point them out.

It is not logical fallacies that is your problem, it is a lack of evidence. Talk is cheap. Why have all of the rivers bigger and stronger than the Colorado not formed canyons? A better explanation is that God formed the Grand Canyon with its river.
 
Upvote 0