Grand Canyon Disproves Creationism

[Dale]

Geologists believe in Uniformitarianism, that most features of the Earth's surface were created by slow, steady action of natural forces over long periods of time.

Creationists believe that the Grand Canyon was either formed during Noah's Deluge or by one or more sudden, catastrophic flash floods. Neither of these creationist views holds up to scrutiny.

The Grand Canyon has at least eleven layers, eleven major strata. One massive worldwide flood would not have laid down such a complicated series of strata. For even the top layer to have been laid down by a one-year flood is impossible.

"The fossils occurring in these deposits indicate that the topmost layers are at least 250 million years old, and represent life forms that do not exist today. Limestones are formed by the slow deposition of microscopic marine creatures. There is absolutely no way that these creatures could have laid down deposits hundreds of feet thick in the one year period of the Genesis flood."

The Grand Canyon was formed by the Colorado River, which has four tributaries, the Little Colorado, the San Juan, the Dolores and the Green River. The Green River alone travels 720 miles from its origin in Wyoming. A flash flood could not create such a complicated landscape, including U-turns in the Colorado River and also in its tributaries.




Source:
Creationist Grand Canyon Argument

 

[NothingIsImpossible]

Actually there are geologists who say if anything the grand canyon proves the flood was massive and did happen and that before it there was no grand canyon. They way the layers are and whats found in them shows it happened fast to build up that much.

I also seen a video about it called "Is Genesis history?". Came out this year, its blew my mind about the grand canyon.

 

[Strathos]

Actually there are geologists who say if anything the grand canyon proves the flood was massive and did happen and that before it there was no grand canyon. They way the layers are and whats found in them shows it happened fast to build up that much.

I also seen a video about it called "Is Genesis history?". Came out this year, its blew my mind about the grand canyon.

I suggest you study what actual geologists say.

CH581: Carving the Grand Canyon

 

[Saucy]

No one said all the layers had to be laid down at once in one event.

 

[Dale]

Actually there are geologists who say if anything the grand canyon proves the flood was massive and did happen and that before it there was no grand canyon. They way the layers are and whats found in them shows it happened fast to build up that much.

I also seen a video about it called "Is Genesis history?". Came out this year, its blew my mind about the grand canyon.

I gave reasons why the geology and strata took long periods of time in the OP.

Why would one massive Flood lay down eleven layers of different composition? It isn't obvious.

How could a massive flood, or a whole series of them, produce U-turns in a river?

 

[pat34lee]

I gave reasons why the geology and strata took long periods of time in the OP.

Why would one massive Flood lay down eleven layers of different composition? It isn't obvious.

How could a massive flood, or a whole series of them, produce U-turns in a river?

Catastrophism. Mount St. Helens volcano made a small
scale version of the grand canyon in a very short time,
complete with many layers.

Water follows the path of least resistance. During flooding,
main channels can get blocked by moving debris, causing
side channels or turns where the ground is softer.

 

[Dale]

Catastrophism. Mount St. Helens volcano made a small
scale version of the grand canyon in a very short time,
complete with many layers.

Water follows the path of least resistance. During flooding,
main channels can get blocked by moving debris, causing
side channels or turns where the ground is softer.

I have been to both the north and the south rims of the Grand Canyon. I have been to Mt. St. Helens and hiked the area. They look nothing alike. The blowout from the caldera of the Mt. St. Helens volcano does not wander around, making U-turns. It is a simple, massive blowout.

As far, as channels being blocked during a flood, that could happen only in a small, everyday flood. A flood of the magnitude of Noah's Flood would require far more water than there is on earth today, about seven times as much. No obstacle could stop such a flood.

 

[pat34lee]

A flood of the magnitude of Noah's Flood would require far more water than there is on earth today, about seven times as much. No obstacle could stop such a flood.

Amount of water isn't a problem.

First, I think the world was very different pre-flood.
Not only no mountains, but the whole planet was smaller.
Look up expanding earth videos on Youtube.

Second, there is plenty of water for the earth as it is now,
minus the mountains, which were pushed up afterward.
Study: Deep beneath the earth, more water than in all the oceans combined

 

[pat34lee]

No obstacle could stop such a flood.

That is assuming that the water was moving fast while it was deep.
Underwater currents would have been there, but the fast moving
water wouldn't occur until most of the water was gone. Such as
when barrier lakes broke open and emptied or post-flood glaciers
melted.

 

[Dale]

Amount of water isn't a problem.

First, I think the world was very different pre-flood.
Not only no mountains, but the whole planet was smaller.
Look up expanding earth videos on Youtube.

Second, there is plenty of water for the earth as it is now,
minus the mountains, which were pushed up afterward.
Study: Deep beneath the earth, more water than in all the oceans combined

The mountains were pushed up afterward?
That's an interesting point. According to Genesis, Noah's Ark landed on Mount Ararat, or a mount in the Ararat range. The most prominent creationist group in the world, the Institute for Creation Research, or ICR, says there were no mountains before the Flood. So the Ararat range of mountains would have to be pushed up during the Flood. Now the Ararat range is volcanic. They are extinct volcanos. If the Ararat range broke the surface of the water during the Ararat range during the Flood, the Noah would have stepped out onto barely cooled solid lava.

Yet Genesis says that Noah and his sons got out of the Ark and started farming right away, without traveling any distance to get to farmland.

It looks like modern creationists have contradicted the Bible, and not for the first time.

 

[KWCrazy]

If you believe in the Scriptures then the Grand Canyon validates the flood. If not, then it invalidates it. Same data, different interpretation.

 

[Dale]

Amount of water isn't a problem.

First, I think the world was very different pre-flood.
Not only no mountains, but the whole planet was smaller.
Look up expanding earth videos on Youtube.

Second, there is plenty of water for the earth as it is now,
minus the mountains, which were pushed up afterward.
Study: Deep beneath the earth, more water than in all the oceans combined

Here's another reason to believe that the creationists are wrong, that is, there were mountains before the Flood, if there ever was one.

19 They [the waters] rose greatly on the earth, and all the high mountains under the entire heavens were covered. 20 The waters rose and covered the mountains to a depth of more than fifteen cubits.
--Genesis 7:19-20 NIV

Genesis says that the "high mountains" were covered by the flood waters. Clearly Genesis is contradicting the creationists who tell us that there were no mountains before the Flood.

 

[KWCrazy]

Here's another reason to believe that the creationists are wrong, that is, there were mountains before the Flood, if there ever was one.

Of course there were mountains.
There's no need trying to explain where all the water came from or where it went.
I think we short change ourselves when we try to find natural explanations for miracles.
Find the way that makes the most sense, and God did it the opposite to demonstrate that natural law serves Him, not vice versa.

 

[pat34lee]

The mountains were pushed up afterward?
That's an interesting point. According to Genesis, Noah's Ark landed on Mount Ararat, or a mount in the Ararat range. The most prominent creationist group in the world, the Institute for Creation Research, or ICR, says there were no mountains before the Flood. So the Ararat range of mountains would have to be pushed up during the Flood. Now the Ararat range is volcanic. They are extinct volcanos. If the Ararat range broke the surface of the water during the Ararat range during the Flood, the Noah would have stepped out onto barely cooled solid lava.

Yet Genesis says that Noah and his sons got out of the Ark and started farming right away, without traveling any distance to get to farmland.

It looks like modern creationists have contradicted the Bible, and not for the first time.

The mountains of Ararat. No, not all mountains are post-flood.
Just some, along with the major mountain ranges. Most likely,
any mountains before the flood were not very large. No Mount
Everest and no Marianas Trench. Any way, without going back
in time, theories are just guesswork, and the details are bound
to be sketchy.

 

[Dale]

The mountains of Ararat. No, not all mountains are post-flood.
Just some, along with the major mountain ranges. Most likely,
any mountains before the flood were not very large. No Mount
Everest and no Marianas Trench. Any way, without going back
in time, theories are just guesswork, and the details are bound
to be sketchy.

This is the problem in discussing anything with creationists. They keep changing their mind about what creationism is.

You say that mountains before the Flood were not large.

I have no doubt that the story of Noah and the Flood is a parable. It is a parable about the kind of obedience that God wants. Noah goes the right way, and leads his family the right way, when the rest of the world is going the wrong way.

The reason that Noah lands on Mt. Ararat is that the ancient Hebrews thought it is the largest and tallest mountain in the world. When the flood waters recede, the tallest mountain is the first to be exposed. Makes sense, doesn't it?

Mt. Ararat, or the highest mountain in the range, is almost 17,000 feet above sea level. That's a very large mountain.

By comparison, the highest mountain in North America is Mt. McKinley, or Mt. Denali as they are now telling us to call it. Mt. McKinley is 20,310 feet.

So the tallest mountain in North America is taller than the Great Ararat, but not by much.

Mt. Ararat is volcanic. It last erupted in 1840. Again, the creationists tell us that there were no volcanoes before the Flood, and no tall mountains, but this doesn't add up.

 

[Sanoy]

I have noticed a lot of Christians calling people who believe in a flood, or a young earth "creationists". "Creationists" seems like a better term for Atheists to call theists than for theists to call other theists. Unless I'm totally misreading and there are Christians that believe God did not create man. There has got to be a better term, though I don't know it.

 

[Queller]

No one said all the layers had to be laid down at once in one event.

Most YEC geologists do. There's really no other way for them to fit the creation of the Grand Canyon into 4,000 years any other way.

 

[Queller]

Amount of water isn't a problem.

First, I think the world was very different pre-flood.
Not only no mountains, but the whole planet was smaller.
Look up expanding earth videos on Youtube.

Second, there is plenty of water for the earth as it is now,
minus the mountains, which were pushed up afterward.
Study: Deep beneath the earth, more water than in all the oceans combined

Let's examine this idea. If there were no mountains pre-Flood (an idea that isn't Biblical but we'll put a pin in that for now), then all the mountain ranges had to be produced within the last 4,000 years. For that to be possible there would have to be an uplift rate of more than 2 meters per year to get Mt Everest to the height it is today in only 4,000 years. According to the most recent measurements, Mt. Everest is currently growing at a rate of around 4 millimeters per year.

My questions to you, and any other YEC, is:

1. When did the fast uplift of mountain ranges start?
2. When did the fast uplift stop?
3. What stopped it?
   
4. What is your evidence for you answers?

Thank you for your time.

 

[Queller]

I have noticed a lot of Christians calling people who believe in a flood, or a young earth "creationists". "Creationists" seems like a better term for Atheists to call theists than for theists to call other theists. Unless I'm totally misreading and there are Christians that believe God did not create man. There has got to be a better term, though I don't know it.

There are several different flavors of Christian creationists. Young Earth Creationists, Old Earth Creationists, Gap Creationists, Day-Age Creationists, Theistic Evolutionists, and others.

 

[Speedwell]

I have noticed a lot of Christians calling people who believe in a flood, or a young earth "creationists". "Creationists" seems like a better term for Atheists to call theists than for theists to call other theists. Unless I'm totally misreading and there are Christians that believe God did not create man. There has got to be a better term, though I don't know it.

Strictly speaking, any theist who believes that God somehow created the universe and its contents is a "creationist." But defined that way the term is too broad to be useful. As a matter of common usage, "creationist" in forums like this generally refers to "young Earth creationist" (also abbreviated YEC) that is, a fundamentalist Evangelical Protestant who believes that God created the universe and man according to a strictly literal interpretation of the Genesis creation stories in 4004 BC or thereabouts. This belief is generally concomitant with the belief that the Noah story is also 100% accurate history, thus the use of the term as you have observed. There are also a few fundamentalist Muslims and Jews who are YECs, but they don't show up very often.