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Deliverance from physical afflictions is all together different than deliverance from sin. What Paul's "thorn in his flesh" was, was a physical affliction....not sin.
I personally know one person who is diagnosed schizophrenic, am related to two people with bi-polar disorder, and my mom, uncle and I all suffer from various degrees of obsessive-compulsive disorder. Out of all of the people listed, my uncle and I are the only two who have not struggled with addiction to a drug/drug-like substance. My mom was so badly addicted to cigarettes that she went into a severe depression when she tried to stop smoking when she was pregnant with me. When she finally kicked the addiction, it took her two years to do it.
I don't think it's coincidence.
While that is true, Pobody, He does hold us personally responsible for sin.
Who is claiming that He does not? Saying that He doesn't promise deliverance does not say that He does not hold us responsible for our sinful choices.
ETA that is why I am so grateful for 1 John 1:9, and 1 John 2:1
Who is claiming that He does not? Saying that He doesn't promise deliverance does not say that He does not hold us responsible for our sinful choices.
ETA that is why I am so grateful for 1 John 1:9, and 1 John 2:1
While not every person gets healed, it's important to note that in scripture, Jesus healed everyone in his path who asked, or who's loved ones asked Him to.
FP, First let me say that I am sorry for what your family has endured. I am not without compassion. I also understand what it's like to live with someone who has a mental illness. I have no doubt that many people who abuse substances are self medicating, in effect, due to some kind of chemical imbalance, and to be quite frank, certain mental illnesses, I suspect, are examples of what the Bible was talking about with regards to demonic possession. I want to clarify though, that all mental illnesses, are not the same, and shouldn't be lumped together as such.
Okay, first of all, what AA would consider to be an addiction, covers too many things that are not the same. What I mean is that people who are escaping from something painful, and people who just have a chemical imbalance, are not the same. The person who is escaping pain, can be set free when the pain is healed, by changing their patterns of thought. While not easy, it's doable, and frankly from my experience, it seems that there are many in that camp.
Secondly, those with a chemical imbalance can often receive proper medication, as opposed to self medication through the wrong sources. Now this will possibly sound crazy, but in many cases even diet can balance the chemical imbalance. My mom has had some kind of mental illness that was observable since she was about 38, or so. It's a lot like Alzheimer's. She acts like a toddler, and demands her way. She also often doesn't understand what people are saying. She will repeat things like a broken record, etc. Now,about a year ago, she had a stroke. After the stroke, she couldn't swallow, so for about a month or so, she was on a liquid diet, and was fed through a tube in her stomach. Now, food has always been her joy, with mealtimes being the joy of her day. So you would think that without mealtimes, she would have been miserable. But while she was on that diet, she was just as lucid as could be. She was happy, and understood things. This made me realize that a proper diet can do so much more than I ever realized. Therefore, seeking God for proper discernment is crucial. But in none of those cases would I say that it should be assumed that the person will always be afflicted. While not every person gets healed, it's important to note that in scripture, Jesus healed everyone in his path who asked, or who's loved ones asked Him to.
Right. While a person may not know deliverance here on earth, they are still accountable. It is not an excuse to be able to shirk the responsibility to overcome. It simply means they may *not* overcome.
I know this will be seen as argumentative, *but* I am really not trying to be.
The truth is, we don't know the above statement to be 100% sure. We had it reported to us those He did choose to heal, there may have been some who did not get healed, but were offered something else. Look at Lazarus. His sisters sent for Jesus and told Him he was dying. Jesus didn't come. The man died, Jesus wept, his sister railed at Him...and then Jesus did something else. He brought him back from the dead. We all can see *that* was a bigger better move because it furthered His ministry and was just awesome, but there may have been other stories that were similar...Jesus not coming/healing because God wanted Him to be in other places and had other plans in those people's lives...like Paul. He asked to be healed three times and was not.
Sometimes we have to live with what our afflictions are. Sometimes we are delivered, sometimes we are told to press on, fixing our eyes on Jesus, and sometimes we slip up. God is always there, always willing to forgive us and cleanse us. Jesus is our advocate on high when we slip up.
Nope, not.at.all.But it sounds like you are saying that a person could be in a position of being "stuck in sin," as in, they have no choice but to sin, their whole lives, yet they will be held responsible for it?
FP, First let me say that I am sorry for what your family has endured. I am not without compassion. I also understand what it's like to live with someone who has a mental illness. I have no doubt that many people who abuse substances are self medicating, in effect, due to some kind of chemical imbalance, and to be quite frank, certain mental illnesses, I suspect, are examples of what the Bible was talking about with regards to demonic possession. I want to clarify though, that all mental illnesses, are not the same, and shouldn't be lumped together as such.
Okay, first of all, what AA would consider to be an addiction, covers too many things that are not the same. What I mean is that people who are escaping from something painful, and people who just have a chemical imbalance, are not the same. The person who is escaping pain, can be set free when the pain is healed, by changing their patterns of thought. While not easy, it's doable, and frankly from my experience, it seems that there are many in that camp.
Secondly, those with a chemical imbalance can often receive proper medication, as opposed to self medication through the wrong sources.
Now this will possibly sound crazy, but in many cases even diet can balance the chemical imbalance. My mom has had some kind of mental illness that was observable since she was about 38, or so. It's a lot like Alzheimer's. She acts like a toddler, and demands her way. She also often doesn't understand what people are saying. She will repeat things like a broken record, etc. Now,about a year ago, she had a stroke. After the stroke, she couldn't swallow, so for about a month or so, she was on a liquid diet, and was fed through a tube in her stomach. Now, food has always been her joy, with mealtimes being the joy of her day. So you would think that without mealtimes, she would have been miserable. But while she was on that diet, she was just as lucid as could be. She was happy, and understood things. This made me realize that a proper diet can do so much more than I ever realized. Therefore, seeking God for proper discernment is crucial. But in none of those cases would I say that it should be assumed that the person will always be afflicted. While not every person gets healed, it's important to note that in scripture, Jesus healed everyone in his path who asked, or who's loved ones asked Him to.
Yeah, that's why I said discernment is required. And yes, we can have discernment.I agree that they are not all the same. That doesn't mean they can't have the same "side effects" - ie addiction, IMO.
I agree with this, too. But, depending on what the pain is that they are avoiding/escaping, they may not feel strong enough to be set free. In order to be set free, they have to be able to confront what was done to cause the pain. Doing that can cause flashbacks (PTSD), anxiety, depression, etc. It is a painful and difficult process. It can take years - if the person is even willing to confront the past.
They often times do receive proper medication. Once they are functioning well on it, they may determine that they no longer need the meds and take themselves off. It's not uncommon, especially with bi-polar patients.
We have to look at it like there is a battle waging inside their head - so, yes, I agree with you that it is similar to the references of demonic possession.
I am sorry that your mom has had health issues. I'm sure that has been very difficult for you over the years. It must have brought you some joy to see her so much more responsive with the proper diet.
Diet can definitely play a part in health issues of all different kinds. ADD/ADHD is a great example. I have a son with ADHD and his diet is pretty clean of most "bad" foods. His diet was good before the diagnosis, too, though - so there are times when diet alone simply isn't enough. There are also times when changing diet habits work miracles, though.
but, see? I don't read that as what is being said at all. No one has advocated shirking responsibility. What I do read is being said is that we should show grace and compassion when someone fails or falls. We are called to do that. Forgive as God in Christ has forgiven us. Forgiving does not mean a blind eye is turned to sin, but reaching out and embracing someone in spite of it. (through prayer, words of encouragement and truth from His word or actual physical embrace) Forgiveness and grace is undeserved and that is what makes it amazing.
Yeah, that's why I said discernment is required. And yes, we can have discernment.
Wait! Personally....I am NOT talking about being frustrated and angry with the person......just their sin, and how the sin is destroying the person's life. (That was my purpose for putting up the video on Allison's intervention...to show how her family confronted things. Even though there was yelling....the anger was at the addiction--not towards Allison personally---just her behavior.)It is one thing to encourage them to find the strength they need to overcome in God. It's quite another to be frustrated/angry with them when they fail to do so. JMHO
Wait! Personally....I am NOT talking about being frustrated and angry with the person......just their sin, and how the sin is destroying the person's life. (That was my purpose for putting up the video on Allison's intervention...to show how her family confronted things. Even though there was yelling....the anger was at the addiction--not towards Allison personally---just her behavior.)
It isn't compassion.....IMO....to expect that habitual sin to be a part of the lifes of those we love....to me, that attitude is no different than accepting the first diagnosis from a doctor that a person has a terminal disease--is in extreme pain--and the doctors diagnosis is...."we have done all we can". I wouldn't accept that as being the way things are going to have to stay for anyone I know....I would fight with them--and sometimes FOR them....to try to rid them of something like that. (again....I probably shouldn't confuse physical affliction with sin---as the main difference is....I don't believe God has promised us to be free from physical afflictions--it was only a comparison, not a parallel.)
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