Grace & Truth

[pobodysnerfect]

Deliverance from physical afflictions is all together different than deliverance from sin. What Paul's "thorn in his flesh" was, was a physical affliction....not sin.

How can you know that for 100% sure? The bible never tells us what his thorn was, just that he had one and was left to struggle with it. Even if it was physical affliction, the message is the same. God doesn't always blanket promise deliverance from what afflicts us.

 

[Romanseight2005]

While that is true, Pobody, He does hold us personally responsible for sin.

 

[pobodysnerfect]

I personally know one person who is diagnosed schizophrenic, am related to two people with bi-polar disorder, and my mom, uncle and I all suffer from various degrees of obsessive-compulsive disorder. Out of all of the people listed, my uncle and I are the only two who have not struggled with addiction to a drug/drug-like substance. My mom was so badly addicted to cigarettes that she went into a severe depression when she tried to stop smoking when she was pregnant with me. When she finally kicked the addiction, it took her two years to do it.

I don't think it's coincidence.

Me neither. My dd's birth mom struggles with depression for her whole life...it lead her to drugs and reckless behaviors that lead to further heartache. We learned in our home study that very often these addictive people *first* had a mental disorder like that and it lead them to be more susceptable to drug experimentation.
There are personalities that have the "aholic" tendencies built into them too, that never goes away, it is a part of who they are; but learning to control them and hand them over to God is required. Some do so more easily and others have an exhausting struggle from it their whole life. Those that struggle can be told "you can do this, through Christ", but if their "recovery" isn't as steady or fast as one who does not struggle thinks it should be, there will be not a lot of grace/compassion shown IMO.

 

[pobodysnerfect]

While that is true, Pobody, He does hold us personally responsible for sin.

Who is claiming that He does not? Saying that He doesn't promise deliverance does not say that He does not hold us responsible for our sinful choices.

ETA that is why I am so grateful for 1 John 1:9, and 1 John 2:1

 

[Romanseight2005]

FP, First let me say that I am sorry for what your family has endured. I am not without compassion. I also understand what it's like to live with someone who has a mental illness. I have no doubt that many people who abuse substances are self medicating, in effect, due to some kind of chemical imbalance, and to be quite frank, certain mental illnesses, I suspect, are examples of what the Bible was talking about with regards to demonic possession. I want to clarify though, that all mental illnesses, are not the same, and shouldn't be lumped together as such.

Okay, first of all, what AA would consider to be an addiction, covers too many things that are not the same. What I mean is that people who are escaping from something painful, and people who just have a chemical imbalance, are not the same. The person who is escaping pain, can be set free when the pain is healed, by changing their patterns of thought. While not easy, it's doable, and frankly from my experience, it seems that there are many in that camp.

Secondly, those with a chemical imbalance can often receive proper medication, as opposed to self medication through the wrong sources. Now this will possibly sound crazy, but in many cases even diet can balance the chemical imbalance. My mom has had some kind of mental illness that was observable since she was about 38, or so. It's a lot like Alzheimer's. She acts like a toddler, and demands her way. She also often doesn't understand what people are saying. She will repeat things like a broken record, etc. Now,about a year ago, she had a stroke. After the stroke, she couldn't swallow, so for about a month or so, she was on a liquid diet, and was fed through a tube in her stomach. Now, food has always been her joy, with mealtimes being the joy of her day. So you would think that without mealtimes, she would have been miserable. But while she was on that diet, she was just as lucid as could be. She was happy, and understood things. This made me realize that a proper diet can do so much more than I ever realized. Therefore, seeking God for proper discernment is crucial. But in none of those cases would I say that it should be assumed that the person will always be afflicted. While not every person gets healed, it's important to note that in scripture, Jesus healed everyone in his path who asked, or who's loved ones asked Him to.

 

[Romanseight2005]

Who is claiming that He does not? Saying that He doesn't promise deliverance does not say that He does not hold us responsible for our sinful choices.

ETA that is why I am so grateful for 1 John 1:9, and 1 John 2:1

Well, correct me if I am wrong, but earlier, it seemed that all kinds of addictions were being lumped together. A person repeatedly sinning, is not the same thing as a person with no understanding.

 

[FaithPrevails]

Who is claiming that He does not? Saying that He doesn't promise deliverance does not say that He does not hold us responsible for our sinful choices.

ETA that is why I am so grateful for 1 John 1:9, and 1 John 2:1

Right. While a person may not know deliverance here on earth, they are still accountable. It is not an excuse to be able to shirk the responsibility to overcome. It simply means they may *not* overcome.

 

[pobodysnerfect]

While not every person gets healed, it's important to note that in scripture, Jesus healed everyone in his path who asked, or who's loved ones asked Him to.

I know this will be seen as argumentative, *but* I am really not trying to be.

The truth is, we don't know the above statement to be 100% sure. We had it reported to us those He did choose to heal, there may have been some who did not get healed, but were offered something else. Look at Lazarus. His sisters sent for Jesus and told Him he was dying. Jesus didn't come. The man died, Jesus wept, his sister railed at Him...and then Jesus did something else. He brought him back from the dead. We all can see *that* was a bigger better move because it furthered His ministry and was just awesome, but there may have been other stories that were similar...Jesus not coming/healing because God wanted Him to be in other places and had other plans in those people's lives...like Paul. He asked to be healed three times and was not.

Sometimes we have to live with what our afflictions are. Sometimes we are delivered, sometimes we are told to press on, fixing our eyes on Jesus, and sometimes we slip up. God is always there, always willing to forgive us and cleanse us. Jesus is our advocate on high when we slip up.

 

[Romanseight2005]

But it sounds like you are saying that a person could be in a position of being "stuck in sin," as in, they have no choice but to sin, their whole lives, yet they will be held responsible for it?

 

[Conservativation]

FP, First let me say that I am sorry for what your family has endured. I am not without compassion. I also understand what it's like to live with someone who has a mental illness. I have no doubt that many people who abuse substances are self medicating, in effect, due to some kind of chemical imbalance, and to be quite frank, certain mental illnesses, I suspect, are examples of what the Bible was talking about with regards to demonic possession. I want to clarify though, that all mental illnesses, are not the same, and shouldn't be lumped together as such.

Okay, first of all, what AA would consider to be an addiction, covers too many things that are not the same. What I mean is that people who are escaping from something painful, and people who just have a chemical imbalance, are not the same. The person who is escaping pain, can be set free when the pain is healed, by changing their patterns of thought. While not easy, it's doable, and frankly from my experience, it seems that there are many in that camp.

Secondly, those with a chemical imbalance can often receive proper medication, as opposed to self medication through the wrong sources. Now this will possibly sound crazy, but in many cases even diet can balance the chemical imbalance. My mom has had some kind of mental illness that was observable since she was about 38, or so. It's a lot like Alzheimer's. She acts like a toddler, and demands her way. She also often doesn't understand what people are saying. She will repeat things like a broken record, etc. Now,about a year ago, she had a stroke. After the stroke, she couldn't swallow, so for about a month or so, she was on a liquid diet, and was fed through a tube in her stomach. Now, food has always been her joy, with mealtimes being the joy of her day. So you would think that without mealtimes, she would have been miserable. But while she was on that diet, she was just as lucid as could be. She was happy, and understood things. This made me realize that a proper diet can do so much more than I ever realized. Therefore, seeking God for proper discernment is crucial. But in none of those cases would I say that it should be assumed that the person will always be afflicted. While not every person gets healed, it's important to note that in scripture, Jesus healed everyone in his path who asked, or who's loved ones asked Him to.

So whats the bottom line here then? I dont know what this means. it seems to mean that those not healed , what...didnt "ask" ? Didnlt ask correctly? Didnt ask with enough faith? It seems like a faith healer telling someone the reason they didnt get out of their wheelchair is their weak faith.

these things are easy to fall into judgment over aren't they. I get a vibe here that even the churches outreach to addicts is misguided because, well look at even the name of the big one....celebrate recovery....they dont stay or even get in the face of addicts about their sin. So.....is their approach a bad thing? Enabling? Note...I went to some and know what they do....and having a "step" of acknowledgment seems very mush less than some are calling for.
I hope Im wrong

 

[pobodysnerfect]

Right. While a person may not know deliverance here on earth, they are still accountable. It is not an excuse to be able to shirk the responsibility to overcome. It simply means they may *not* overcome.

but, see? I don't read that as what is being said at all. No one has advocated shirking responsibility. What I do read is being said is that we should show grace and compassion when someone fails or falls. We are called to do that. Forgive as God in Christ has forgiven us. Forgiving does not mean a blind eye is turned to sin, but reaching out and embracing someone in spite of it. (through prayer, words of encouragement and truth from His word or actual physical embrace) Forgiveness and grace is undeserved and that is what makes it amazing.

 

[Romanseight2005]

I know this will be seen as argumentative, *but* I am really not trying to be.

The truth is, we don't know the above statement to be 100% sure. We had it reported to us those He did choose to heal, there may have been some who did not get healed, but were offered something else. Look at Lazarus. His sisters sent for Jesus and told Him he was dying. Jesus didn't come. The man died, Jesus wept, his sister railed at Him...and then Jesus did something else. He brought him back from the dead. We all can see *that* was a bigger better move because it furthered His ministry and was just awesome, but there may have been other stories that were similar...Jesus not coming/healing because God wanted Him to be in other places and had other plans in those people's lives...like Paul. He asked to be healed three times and was not.

Sometimes we have to live with what our afflictions are. Sometimes we are delivered, sometimes we are told to press on, fixing our eyes on Jesus, and sometimes we slip up. God is always there, always willing to forgive us and cleanse us. Jesus is our advocate on high when we slip up.

I agree with that. What I meant was not that everyone gets healed from afflictions, (not the same as sins) but, that Jesus did heal so frequently, that it also should not be considered as not possible, or even not likely. It also shouldn't be considered that God doesn't love you if your not healed. It should be what we first, and most heartily seek though. To do less, is to deny the power of God, imo.

 

[pobodysnerfect]

But it sounds like you are saying that a person could be in a position of being "stuck in sin," as in, they have no choice but to sin, their whole lives, yet they will be held responsible for it?

Nope, not.at.all.

I believe they may struggle with it the rest of their lives, but they are not stuck. I believe they may slip and fall, but they are not stuck. God has picked me out of my same ol pit so many times. I am not stuck, but I do slip.

 

[FaithPrevails]

FP, First let me say that I am sorry for what your family has endured. I am not without compassion. I also understand what it's like to live with someone who has a mental illness. I have no doubt that many people who abuse substances are self medicating, in effect, due to some kind of chemical imbalance, and to be quite frank, certain mental illnesses, I suspect, are examples of what the Bible was talking about with regards to demonic possession. I want to clarify though, that all mental illnesses, are not the same, and shouldn't be lumped together as such.

I agree that they are not all the same. That doesn't mean they can't have the same "side effects" - ie addiction, IMO.

Okay, first of all, what AA would consider to be an addiction, covers too many things that are not the same. What I mean is that people who are escaping from something painful, and people who just have a chemical imbalance, are not the same. The person who is escaping pain, can be set free when the pain is healed, by changing their patterns of thought. While not easy, it's doable, and frankly from my experience, it seems that there are many in that camp.

I agree with this, too. But, depending on what the pain is that they are avoiding/escaping, they may not feel strong enough to be set free. In order to be set free, they have to be able to confront what was done to cause the pain. Doing that can cause flashbacks (PTSD), anxiety, depression, etc. It is a painful and difficult process. It can take years - if the person is even willing to confront the past.

Secondly, those with a chemical imbalance can often receive proper medication, as opposed to self medication through the wrong sources.

They often times do receive proper medication. Once they are functioning well on it, they may determine that they no longer need the meds and take themselves off. It's not uncommon, especially with bi-polar patients.

We have to look at it like there is a battle waging inside their head - so, yes, I agree with you that it is similar to the references of demonic possession.

Now this will possibly sound crazy, but in many cases even diet can balance the chemical imbalance. My mom has had some kind of mental illness that was observable since she was about 38, or so. It's a lot like Alzheimer's. She acts like a toddler, and demands her way. She also often doesn't understand what people are saying. She will repeat things like a broken record, etc. Now,about a year ago, she had a stroke. After the stroke, she couldn't swallow, so for about a month or so, she was on a liquid diet, and was fed through a tube in her stomach. Now, food has always been her joy, with mealtimes being the joy of her day. So you would think that without mealtimes, she would have been miserable. But while she was on that diet, she was just as lucid as could be. She was happy, and understood things. This made me realize that a proper diet can do so much more than I ever realized. Therefore, seeking God for proper discernment is crucial. But in none of those cases would I say that it should be assumed that the person will always be afflicted. While not every person gets healed, it's important to note that in scripture, Jesus healed everyone in his path who asked, or who's loved ones asked Him to.

I am sorry that your mom has had health issues. I'm sure that has been very difficult for you over the years. It must have brought you some joy to see her so much more responsive with the proper diet.

Diet can definitely play a part in health issues of all different kinds. ADD/ADHD is a great example. I have a son with ADHD and his diet is pretty clean of most "bad" foods. His diet was good before the diagnosis, too, though - so there are times when diet alone simply isn't enough. There are also times when changing diet habits work miracles, though.

 

[Conservativation]

The believer doing what he "would not do" and not doing what he "would do" Im not finding the line in the sand here that many are drawing, because, well, this set of scripture even applies to those where who want to hold someone to account. Its such a basic principle, grace, and this thread is showing why its such a struggle for all of us


Rom 7:14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am fleshly, having been sold under sin.
Rom 7:15 For what I work out, I do not know. For what I do not will, this I do. But what I hate, this I do.
Rom 7:16 But if I do what I do not will, I agree with the Law, that it is good.
Rom 7:17 But now I no longer work it out, but the sin dwelling in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me, that is in my flesh, dwells no good. For to will is present to me, but to work out the good I do not find.
Rom 7:19 For what good I desire, I do not do. But the evil I do not desire, this I do.
Rom 7:20 But if I do what I do not desire, it is no longer I working it out, but the sin dwelling in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then the law, when I desire to do the right, that evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the Law of God according to the inward man;
Rom 7:23 but I see another law in my members having warred against the law of my mind, and taking me captive by the law of sin being in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then I myself with the mind truly serve the Law of God, and with the flesh the law of sin.


Then we also know that we cannot willfully sin over and over flippantly as Christians and expect Gods kingdom. here we need some exposition on willful I guess. Supposing the addict is using their substance while sitting in a chair passed out, in and out of awake asleep....the sin IS the use of the substance. If they are using the substance then running around cheating....that's another layer of willful and more obvious.
Regardless the scripture we all know sums it up:

Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

So, are those so rigidly stuck over on the truth side of the spectrum doing so with a pure motive? If so, then they must condemn modern addiction approaches as ineffective and failing to adequately hold the sinner accountable. they must condemn them for the idea that they can be an addict for life, even while not sinning. They must stand on the fact (per them) that if the addict asks, he/she is healed...and thats that.
Which leads then to another conundrum they would face. addict DOES have an encounter w/ God and is healed (yes it occurs)...how many would accept that awesome fact, and how many would recommend some kind of "vigilance" which, in doing so contradicts the first assertion.

 

[Romanseight2005]

I agree that they are not all the same. That doesn't mean they can't have the same "side effects" - ie addiction, IMO.



I agree with this, too. But, depending on what the pain is that they are avoiding/escaping, they may not feel strong enough to be set free. In order to be set free, they have to be able to confront what was done to cause the pain. Doing that can cause flashbacks (PTSD), anxiety, depression, etc. It is a painful and difficult process. It can take years - if the person is even willing to confront the past.



They often times do receive proper medication. Once they are functioning well on it, they may determine that they no longer need the meds and take themselves off. It's not uncommon, especially with bi-polar patients.

We have to look at it like there is a battle waging inside their head - so, yes, I agree with you that it is similar to the references of demonic possession.




I am sorry that your mom has had health issues. I'm sure that has been very difficult for you over the years. It must have brought you some joy to see her so much more responsive with the proper diet.

Diet can definitely play a part in health issues of all different kinds. ADD/ADHD is a great example. I have a son with ADHD and his diet is pretty clean of most "bad" foods. His diet was good before the diagnosis, too, though - so there are times when diet alone simply isn't enough. There are also times when changing diet habits work miracles, though.

Yeah, that's why I said discernment is required. And yes, we can have discernment.

 

[FaithPrevails]

but, see? I don't read that as what is being said at all. No one has advocated shirking responsibility. What I do read is being said is that we should show grace and compassion when someone fails or falls. We are called to do that. Forgive as God in Christ has forgiven us. Forgiving does not mean a blind eye is turned to sin, but reaching out and embracing someone in spite of it. (through prayer, words of encouragement and truth from His word or actual physical embrace) Forgiveness and grace is undeserved and that is what makes it amazing.

I made that statement to Romans b/c I read her comment to mean that I was saying it gave them the right to shirk their responsibility. I just wanted to be clear that it's not what I mean at all.

 

[FaithPrevails]

Yeah, that's why I said discernment is required. And yes, we can have discernment.

So, maybe we are more in agreement than disagreement? It would seem that way to me.

 

[mkgal1]

It is one thing to encourage them to find the strength they need to overcome in God. It's quite another to be frustrated/angry with them when they fail to do so. JMHO

Wait! Personally....I am NOT talking about being frustrated and angry with the person......just their sin, and how the sin is destroying the person's life. (That was my purpose for putting up the video on Allison's intervention...to show how her family confronted things. Even though there was yelling....the anger was at the addiction--not towards Allison personally---just her behavior.)

It isn't compassion.....IMO....to expect that habitual sin to be a part of the lifes of those we love....to me, that attitude is no different than accepting the first diagnosis from a doctor that a person has a terminal disease--is in extreme pain--and the doctors diagnosis is...."we have done all we can". I wouldn't accept that as being the way things are going to have to stay for anyone I know....I would fight with them--and sometimes FOR them....to try to rid them of something like that. (again....I probably shouldn't confuse physical affliction with sin---as the main difference is....I don't believe God has promised us to be free from physical afflictions--it was only a comparison, not a parallel.)

 

[FaithPrevails]

Wait! Personally....I am NOT talking about being frustrated and angry with the person......just their sin, and how the sin is destroying the person's life. (That was my purpose for putting up the video on Allison's intervention...to show how her family confronted things. Even though there was yelling....the anger was at the addiction--not towards Allison personally---just her behavior.)

Thanks for the clarification. It has sounded up to this point that the anger/frustration is directed at the person.

In your opinion, how does one address the sin without making it seem like they are addressing the person? I ask b/c I don't see yelling as an effective way to do that. Probably b/c I don't like to be yelled at. lol

It isn't compassion.....IMO....to expect that habitual sin to be a part of the lifes of those we love....to me, that attitude is no different than accepting the first diagnosis from a doctor that a person has a terminal disease--is in extreme pain--and the doctors diagnosis is...."we have done all we can". I wouldn't accept that as being the way things are going to have to stay for anyone I know....I would fight with them--and sometimes FOR them....to try to rid them of something like that. (again....I probably shouldn't confuse physical affliction with sin---as the main difference is....I don't believe God has promised us to be free from physical afflictions--it was only a comparison, not a parallel.)

RE: the bolded - I quite agree. That's not what I defined as compassion, though. I defined compassion as recognizing that they may have a lifelong struggle with sin. That does not mean that I would condone/excuse/accept the sin - that would be enabling, not compassion.