Grace that saves

[ByTheSpirit]

Ephesians 2:8 ESV
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

So a lot of hubbub has been had about this whole grace business. Well allow me to explain what I have been trying to say in a manner more befitting our position.

Grace is free. I agree. I thank God for his free gift of grace.

Grace comes to all. I agree. God wants all people to be saved, so he offers his grace to all people. (2 Peter 3:9)

This is where I believe the track splits.

Grace must be accepted.

God does not force himself or his grace on anyone.

Perhaps things have been said the same way just from two different approaches, but I steadfastly refuse the "grace saves apart from any work" theory that cripples the work of God.

This is the process how I see it. No denomination or minister put me up to this.

 

[probinson]

The problem, as I see it, is that everyone posting here in this forum has bits of Truth. However, instead of taking each other's bits of Truth and jointly fitting them together to come to a greater revelation of Truth, everyone seems determined to discard everyone else's input in favor of their own.

Some have a focus on holiness. Some have a focus on grace. Some have a focus on obedience. And the list goes on. While there is nothing wrong with any of these being the focus of an individual, they are incomplete revelations of the Truth of the Gospel on their own.

To quote Sanctus Real, "Oh oh, We NEED each other". All of us have bits of Truth. Instead of trying to force everyone to concede to our viewpoint and ours alone, it would be a wonderful and powerful thing if EVERYONE here actually LISTENED to one another and grew TOGETHER.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Ephesians 2:8-10 ESV
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

You see, works are an important part of who we are. God saved us so that we would do good works.

This is the purpose behind my not so recent "Fire Insurance" thread. People want the fire insurance of Christianity without the holiness or righteousness part. The two can not be separated.

Sure, there will be good days and there will be bad days. Some days we may live, feel, act like a heathen of the raunchiest sort. But we are covered, we are cleansed, we are righteous in God's sight. Not because of who we are, or what we've done. But because of who we are in. We are in Jesus!

That is why the scripture states:

1 John 1:9 ESV
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

God is faithful to his word. God is just to judge.

Colossians 2:13-14 ESV

13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.

God judged sin on the cross. (1 Peter 2:24) When we confess that we have sinned, the payment for that transaction has already been processed. We need only to accept it.

So I am not saying that we must be perfect, 100% of the time. We need to strive for that. We need to attain to it, but rest assured if Paul could testify that he had not reached it in his old age, we are not condemned either if we have not (Philippians 3:12-14; Romans 8:1)

That is why we must not judge one another. This includes gossiping.

When we judge another believer, condemn them and say man I'm so glad I'm not like them! What a filthy person. We have truly expressed the contents of our heart.

Matthew 12:34-37 ESV
34 You brood of vipers! How can you speak good, when you are evil? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. 35 The good person out of his good treasure brings forth good, and the evil person out of his evil treasure brings forth evil. 36 I tell you, on the day of judgment people will give account for every careless word they speak, 37 for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”

Luke 6:37-41 (ESV)

37 “Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven; 38 give, and it will be given to you. Good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, will be put into your lap. For with the measure you use it will be measured back to you.” 39 He also told them a parable: “Can a blind man lead a blind man? Will they not both fall into a pit? 40 A disciple is not above his teacher, but everyone when he is fully trained will be like his teacher. 41 Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?

Romans 14:10-13 (ESV)

10 Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God; 11 for it is written,
“As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me,
and every tongue shall confess to God.”
12 So then each of us will give an account of himself to God. 13 Therefore let us not pass judgment on one another any longer, but rather decide never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother.

We can see that judging others, for whatever reason, is wrong and should be avoided. You have no idea what that person is going through or who they are. You could unintentionally, or intentionally, put a stumbling block in their walk of faith that could have devastating consequences on you and them.

So what does this have to do with what I started with? Works and grace

 

[Frogster]

Alot of the problem is the "works" word. Most take it to mean, doing a good deed, a task, to be saved, do alot of good, and one is saved. Most protestants do not believe that at all. I don't either, no works save.

But some take the works word to mean, human involvement in the salvation event.

They will say the , "when the heart turns to the Lord", verse from 2 Cor it shows that one had to turn, he did a "work". It was not all grace they will say.

Jesus longed to gather the chicks, but they would not come, showing there had to be a human decision, and on and on, which also goes into the predestined argument, which some take to mean, that God predestined some to wrath, which they can quote Rom 9 to substantiate.

Sooo...the chicks verse, and the heart having to turn, are used to show man's involvement, otherwise saved people are robots if man did not have to believe, or turn, to not be an ungathered chick.


So again, they see the human involvement as a work, they had to do something, and they have text to prove the point, but if they did not see human involvement as a work, and saw works as a deed type of thing, there were not be such a long history of this argument.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

The problem, as I see it, is that everyone posting here in this forum has bits of Truth. However, instead of taking each other's bits of Truth and jointly fitting them together to come to a greater revelation of Truth, everyone seems determined to discard everyone else's input in favor of their own.

Some have a focus on holiness. Some have a focus on grace. Some have a focus on obedience. And the list goes on. While there is nothing wrong with any of these being the focus of an individual, they are incomplete revelations of the Truth of the Gospel on their own.

To quote Sanctus Real, "Oh oh, We NEED each other". All of us have bits of Truth. Instead of trying to force everyone to concede to our viewpoint and ours alone, it would be a wonderful and powerful thing if EVERYONE here actually LISTENED to one another and grew TOGETHER.

I agree, good stuff I have had the hardest time accepting others know stuff I don't and it's very humbling to admit. But you are right Pete. I do learn a lot from others here, which is probably why I keep coming back here to CF. I want to learn, but the thing I find about this place now is there are certain people that want 100% conformity to their teaching and if you disagree in the slightest, then you are cast out.

I hope I am not this way and if I have come across as such, then before everyone I apologize. I present the truth as I understand it and as revealed to me. My understanding is partial, and prone to error for my flesh is strong. I want to humanize so many things. But God is a gracious teacher. Patient and full of mercy. He is leading me along as he sees best.

Hopefully we can all grow along together in that pursuit.

 

[Chris12]

The problem, as I see it, is that everyone posting here in this forum has bits of Truth. However, instead of taking each other's bits of Truth and jointly fitting them together to come to a greater revelation of Truth, everyone seems determined to discard everyone else's input in favor of their own.

Some have a focus on holiness. Some have a focus on grace. Some have a focus on obedience. And the list goes on. While there is nothing wrong with any of these being the focus of an individual, they are incomplete revelations of the Truth of the Gospel on their own.

To quote Sanctus Real, "Oh oh, We NEED each other". All of us have bits of Truth. Instead of trying to force everyone to concede to our viewpoint and ours alone, it would be a wonderful and powerful thing if EVERYONE here actually LISTENED to one another and grew TOGETHER.

I agree with you!

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Yeah, that word, "works" it is dangerous.

I liken this conversation that is raging to this:

We drive our automobiles with insurance, because that is the law.

If we drive without insurance we are outside of the law.

Both look exactly the same. You can't tell from driving past someone if they have insurance or not.

It's the same in this discussion.

The vehicle being our works and the insurance being our faith.

Someone may have all the works of righteousness and just look all the part, but if they do not have faith they are outside the will of God, the plan of God.

But those who work in accordance with their faith, as James said, they are the ones truly acceptable to God.

Faith is the key. It stems from God's grace.

Remember, God grants his grace to all people. Every last one has experienced God's grace at some point or another. Most reject it or liken it to chance, or fate, or anything but God in his mercy.

That is why I said, grace alone does not save.

It's like the seed that is planted in soil.

Without the proper care, it dies and bears no fruit.

Grace is what God plants in us. When we act on that grace with our faith, fruit begins to grow. But we have to act.

Repentance, baptism, confession...

these are things that begin our walk of faith.

Baptism and confession being one time ordeals.

You only need baptism once (if done in faith)
You only need to confess Jesus once (if done in faith)

Repentance is a daily deal that everyday we must decide to put our flesh to death and walk towards God's path of holiness (Luke 9:23)

Obedience is self-explanatory. Jesus said:

"If you love me, keep my commands." John 14:15

It's a lifetime of obedience. At points, we do better than at others. But God always offers his hand in partnership with us to help us along.

But without faith, none of those works saves us, just as without faith, God's grace can't save us. It ALL depends on our faith.

Works done in faith are not legalism. They are outflows of a grateful heart towards God. Works complete our faith and verify the object of our faith. If we say we have faith in God, we will act like it.

I can say all day that I believe a parachute will open and save me, but until I put that sucker on, jump out of a plane and put my words into action, they are just words.

It becomes faith when I jump.

FAITH JUMPS!

FAITH ACTS!

A faith that acts is a saving faith. A "faith" that merely talks, is dead and worthless faith that can no more save me, than it can any of us or anyone ever.

Look at Hebrews 11. The scriptures "Hall of Fame of Faith" or as I call it "Hall of Faith"

Not a single account in that chapter says... so and so merely talked about God blah blah...

Each and every one acted. They walked the walk, not merely talked about it.

That is what I am getting at.

Does our faith jump?

Does our faith act?

It should if we are to be children of God.

Romans 8:14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Where was grace involved in the great pentecost sermon of Peter?

Acts 2:36-38 ESV
36 Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.”

37 Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” 38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

When they heard Peter speak about Jesus and how they had him crucified the Spirit records that they were cut to the heart.

That is where the grace of God came into the picture. Those men did not earn that gut check feeling of, man we really messed up and now feel sorry for it. That "cutting of the heart" was God reaching down to them in his grace and opening them up for receiving his Spirit.

Now Peter easily could have said, well you seem sorrowful enough so you are good because God's grace covers you. But he didn't...

A response to that grace given was need!

REPENT!

BE BAPTIZED!

THEN you can receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

We read a few verses later that:

Acts 2:42 ESV
And they devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers.

This is the exact same process Jesus gave them in the great commission!

Matthew 28:19-20 (ESV)

19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

Go and make disciples by:
1) Baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (or in the name of Jesus since Jesus is the fullness of God Col 1:19; 2:9)
2) Teach them to obey all the Lord's commands...

Making disciples is done by baptizing them and teaching them. No other way.

God's grace is what opens that door for people to repent.
God's grace is what opens that door for people to be baptized.
God's grace is enough to save, when we act upon that grace in the manner God gave us in the scriptures.

God does not force himself, or his grace on anyone.

Those men at Pentecost could easily have taken the disciples and stoned them as heretics just as they did Stephen a few chapters later. The same initial reactions (cut to the heart) but different responses. One response saw thousands enter the family of God while the other saw nothing but death.

Which reaction will we choose?

 

[Steeno7]

Ephesians 2:8 ESV
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

So a lot of hubbub has been had about this whole grace business. Well allow me to explain what I have been trying to say in a manner more befitting our position.

Grace is free. I agree. I thank God for his free gift of grace.

Grace comes to all. I agree. God wants all people to be saved, so he offers his grace to all people. (2 Peter 3:9)

This is where I believe the track splits.

Grace must be accepted.

God does not force himself or his grace on anyone.

Perhaps things have been said the same way just from two different approaches, but I steadfastly refuse the "grace saves apart from any work" theory that cripples the work of God.

This is the process how I see it. No denomination or minister put me up to this.

If you work for something you earn what you have worked for, it isn't free. Grace can only be grace apart from any works on our part.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Completely missed the point., please read all my posts and not just parts of it..

I may want to add, the "fellowship" tag up there means if you don't agree with my post, then you can not post such disagreement.

Murjahel has a post up which is opposite of this thread, you can post there if you don't like my view..

Thank you!

 

[Messy]

If you work for something you earn what you have worked for, it isn't free. Grace can only be grace apart from any works on our part.

But it won't benefit us if we don't accept it. There was another thread on a reformed forum about saved by faith only, not faith and works, but it goes together. Faith without works is dead. The first work of faith is speaking. If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe with your heart that God raised Him from the dead you will be saved.

 

[Steeno7]

But it won't benefit us if we don't accept it. There was another thread on a reformed forum about saved by faith only, not faith and works, but it goes together. Faith without works is dead. The first work of faith is speaking. If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe with your heart that God raised Him from the dead you will be saved.

How do we accept grace?

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Another way of explaining this would be:

I work 40 hours at work in a week. At the end of that week I expect to be paid what I earned.
That is the works oriented stance. God I obeyed all your commands, or at very least was mostly good over the bad.

As opposed to:

My boss offers me a check for $1,000 out of nowhere. I must accept that check, deposit it, etc before it does me any good. This is what I am trying to get at here.

God in his grace offers us salvation apart from our works. In fact, he sent Jesus to die for us while we were still deep in sin. But I must accept that offer of grace. I can only do that by faith.

NOWHERE in scriptures is faith ever just talk.

NOWHERE... NOWHERE... NOWHERE

Faith is always approved of by how we act. Our works say more about our faith, or lack thereof, than our words...

Titus 1:15-16 ESV

To the pure, all things are pure, but to the defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure; but both their minds and their consciences are defiled. They profess to know God, but they deny him by their works. They are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good work.

1 John 3:17-18 ESV

But if anyone has the world’s goods and sees his brother in need, yet closes his heart against him, how does God’s love abide in him? Little children, let us not love in word or talk but in deed and in truth.

James 2:18-24 ESV

But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder! Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God. You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Steeno according to forum rules, you must take your disagreement to another thread. Fellowship threads are not for disagreements. So please take your disagreement to another thread, like murjahel's.

 

[Messy]

How do we accept grace?

Accept His offer by faith which He gives us that we can be saved by grace.

 

[geetrue]

Anyone need a Snickers?

Personality is like an island; we know nothing about the great depths underneath, consequently we cannot estimate ourselves. We begin by thinking that we can, but we come to realize that there is only one Being Who understands us, and that is our Creator.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7827232-8/#post66761489

 

[FoundInGrace]

I remember when God showed up in my life thinking wow even the faith He has given me so I could believe came from Him! By His grace He gave me the faith so that I could believe!
It is all from Him. He who began a good work in us will carry it on to completion..


We do have a choice but in some ways do we? When given evidence such as I was what response can one have except to believe. Essentially the only choice is to accept the gift of faith as given by His grace to one such as I who least deserved His attention and mercy. Like Peter 'where else would we go, who else has the words of eternal life?' - my paraphrase.

I'm all for people having the choice, and always had been.. I do think God does not force us, but after God showed up in my life it became very apparent to me that it was God who had completely made my coming to Him possible. My part in it, if there was any was only to accept the portion of faith He had given me so that I could believe.

I believe grace is God's power moving.
So we are saved by grace - it is God's hand at work imho.

We are given Grace (enabling power from God) to do what God designed us to do to bring Him glory.



So we are saved by grace (God's power working) through faith (the gift of faith that God Himself has given us) so that no man can boast.

As much as I would like to think we play a part in it, it is all God, or else we would be able to boast that we had a part to play in it.

I am still pondering on exactly what I believe but I certainly believe that even the smallest inclination we have toward God is at His instigation.

 

[Chris12]

I remember when God showed up in my life thinking wow even the faith He has given me so I could believe came from Him! By His grace He gave me the faith so that I could believe!
It is all from Him. He who began a good work in us will carry it on to completion..


We do have a choice but in some ways do we? When given evidence such as I was what response can one have except to believe. Essentially the only choice is to accept the gift of faith as given by His grace to one such as I who least deserved His attention and mercy. Like Peter 'where else would we go, who else has the words of eternal life?' - my paraphrase.

I'm all for people having the choice, and always had been.. I do think God does not force us, but after God showed up in my life it became very apparent to me that it was God who had completely made my coming to Him possible. My part in it, if there was any was only to accept the portion of faith He had given me so that I could believe.

I believe grace is God's power moving.
So we are saved by grace - it is God's hand at work imho.

We are given Grace (enabling power from God) to do what God designed us to do to bring Him glory.



So we are saved by grace (God's power working) through faith (the gift of faith that God Himself has given us) so that no man can boast.

As much as I would like to think we play a part in it, it is all God, or else we would be able to boast that we had a part to play in it.

I am still pondering on exactly what I believe but I certainly believe that even the smallest inclination we have toward God is at His instigation.

I very much agree with you! It was the exact same for me, even my faith was a gift from him!

Its funny, but HE began teaching me long ago to listen to HIS voice too! If HE hadn't taught me that even HIS voice was actually from HIM, I probably would not have listened when HE did speak!

There was a day I was driving on gravel roads, I was driving about 65-70 miles an hour, I was used to gravel and used to the road, and I had no fear of going that fast.

Well, as I began to go up a blind hill on the gravel road, I heard a voice say slow down.. well, I figured it was my own mind and so I did not slow - I knew what I was doing.. and then I heard it again, slow down - and once more I brushed away the voice, thinking it was my own mind.. then I heard it again, now it yelled at me - slow down stop! I am thinking what? So I answered and said no!

At this point I have decided myself perfectly crazy.. as now I am talking to myself.. lol but this is the way it went.

After I said no the voice yelled at me again, STOP! GET OVER to the other side of the road! I heard. Well that was perfectly nuts, going up a blind hill on the wrong side of the road. So again I said no!

Then it yelled at me again STOP! GET OVER to the other side! Well, by this time I was almost near the top of the hill, and I slowed as much as I could at that point, which brought me down to about 40 or 45 miles per hour, and I got over to the other side of the road, thinking to myself when this idiotic act kills me, they will write on my tombstone that I was a dumb woman!

But I did what I could, slowed as much as possible and with so much fear got over to the wrong side of the road, feeling like I had both gone insane, and that this was the moment I would die..

Well.. when I reached the top of the hill, just over on the other side on the right side of the road, was an 18 wheeler tractor trailer full of cattle broke down on the side of the road. There was no way to see it until you were literally on top of it..

Had I not listened, and topped that hill going 65 or 70 miles per hour, I would be dead today. That was the day I started listening to the voice when I heard it..and that day changed everything for me. Because that was the day I realized fully that GOD speaks to us and has direct interaction in our lives!

You are so right that even our faith comes from HIM! None of it is from ourselves! All Praise and Glory is for HIM!

 

[ByTheSpirit]

The only issue I have with "faith coming" from God is that then means, in my opinion at least, God decides who has eternal life and who doesn't. For if faith came only from him then that means no one could be saved unless God gave them faith. Now, once we decide in faith to accept God's grace for salvation, I believe he grants us a measure of faith to begin our walk with him, but that initial faith must come from ourselves. I think....

 

[FoundInGrace]

Romans 12:3 (KJV)

For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.