• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
  • We hope the site problems here are now solved, however, if you still have any issues, please start a ticket in Contact Us

BrotherJJ

Well-Known Member
Jul 23, 2019
1,194
441
North America
✟208,097.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Eternal life isn't earned or achieved; it's received through the One who gives it.

Grace = God's unmerited/unearned/undeserved favor

Jn 3:16 God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life
(NOTE: Believers in Christ's sin‑atoning death & resurrection have everlasting life - present tense.)

Jn 3:18 He that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
(NOTE: Unbelievers stand condemned > present tense < because they reject the Son.))

Jn 3:36 He that believeth on the Son "hath" everlasting life & he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him
(NOTE: HATH/HAVE = present tense. Eternal life is received by faith alone, no repentance lists, no rituals, no works.)

Faith alone is needed. Scripture never adds repentance lists, obedience requirements, baptism, tithing, works, or ""until you slip up"" conditions. Believe & trust in Christ's sin‑atoning death & resurrection & you have - present tense, right now, everlasting life.

Jn 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life
(NOTE: Believers have eternal life right now.)

Christ: The Author & Finisher of Faith

Heb 12:2 Looking to Jesus the author & finisher of our faith;
(NOTE: He begins it & He completes it.)

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, """that we might be justified by the faith """OF""" Christ""", & not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified
(NOTE: Justification = God judicially declaring us righteous because of Christ's obedience, not ours.)

2 Thes 3:3 The Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil
(NOTE: We stand by His faithfulness, not our performance.)

Ephesians 2: Grace Saves, Faith Receives, Works Follow

Eph 2:
8 For it is by grace [God’s remarkable compassion and favor drawing you to Christ] that you have been saved [actually delivered from judgment and given eternal life] through faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [not through your own effort], but it is the [undeserved, gracious] gift of God;

9 not as a result of [your] works [nor your attempts to keep the Law], so that no one will [be able to] boast or take credit in any way [for his salvation]
(NOTE: Vs 8 Grace is a compassionate GIFT from God (you are a sinner that deserves death - Rom 6:23) His Grace enables you to access Christ's sin atonement. Vs 9 No works are involved/allowed beyond faith placed in Christ's work. So its all about how great He is, not how great we think might think our works are)

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works
(NOTE: Works follow salvation - they never produce it.)

Rom 16:26 Now revealed & made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, ""so that all the Gentiles might come to the obedience"" ""that comes from faith""
(NOTE: Faith produces obedience - not the other way around.)

Jude 24 To him that is able to keep you from falling & present you faultless before the presence of his glory with great joy
(NOTE: Jesus is our Advocate, - 1 Jn 2:1 & Heb 9:15 — He is also the One to whom all judgment has been given — Jn 5:22, 27. The One who defends you is the same One who judges you. Verdict for the believer: NOT GUILTY)

Acts 4:12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.
(NOTE: That saving name is Jesus the Christ.)

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.
(NOTE: Grace appeared in Christ Himself - grace has a name.)

GRACE HAS A NAME — JESUS THE CHRIST
 
Last edited:
  • Agree
Reactions: pasifika

Jan001

Striving to win the prize...
Site Supporter
Oct 17, 2013
3,029
467
Midwest
✟230,180.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Who did Jesus approve for eternal in Matthew 25:31-46?

Jesus approved for eternal life only the doers of his word and not the hearers only. James 1:22

He approved for eternal life the people who imitated/followed him in doing good works to help other people. John 10:26-28, Luke 9:23, 1 Corinthians 11:1

Jesus did not approve for eternal life the people who called him their "Lord" but neglected to do what he told them to do. Luke 6:16-49, Romans 13:10, Galatians 5:14
 
Upvote 0

BrotherJJ

Well-Known Member
Jul 23, 2019
1,194
441
North America
✟208,097.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Who did Jesus approve for eternal in Matthew 25:31-46?

Jesus approved for eternal life only the doers of his word and not the hearers only. James 1:22

He approved for eternal life the people who imitated/followed him in doing good works to help other people. John 10:26-28, Luke 9:23, 1 Corinthians 11:1

Jesus did not approve for eternal life the people who called him their "Lord" but neglected to do what he told them to do. Luke 6:16-49, Romans 13:10, Galatians 5:14
You're collapsing 2 categories Scripture keeps separate: how a person is saved & what saved people look like.

Matthew 25 does not teach salvation by works—the ""sheep"" are already called righteous before a single work is mentioned (Matt 25:37), showing their actions are evidence, not the cause.

Jesus is consistent: ""He that believeth - hath everlasting life"" (Jn 6:47),
""He that believeth is not condemned"" (Jn 3:18)
""Whoever believes - receives remission of sins"" (Acts 10:43).
Paul reinforces the same truth: Justified by the faith of Christ & ""not by works"" (Gal 2:16)
""Not of works, lest any man should boast"" (Eph 2:9).

James 1:22 addresses spiritual maturity among believers (James 1:18), not how to obtain eternal life.

The people rejected in Matthew 7:21–23 were rejected because they trusted their works > ""Have we not done many wonderful works?"" > not because they lacked them.

Scripture is unified: faith receives salvation; works reveal it. Salvation is by grace through faith & works follow as the fruit, never the root (Eph 2:10).
 
  • Like
Reactions: jacks
Upvote 0

Jan001

Striving to win the prize...
Site Supporter
Oct 17, 2013
3,029
467
Midwest
✟230,180.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
You're collapsing 2 categories Scripture keeps separate: how a person is saved & what saved people look like.

How is a person first saved?

Mark 16:15-16
And he said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to the whole creation. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.


How does a person continue to be saved?

One example:


1 Timothy 2:15
Yet woman will be saved through bearing children, if she continues in faith and love and holiness, with modesty.

Salvation is not a one-time event. It is a lifelong process.

Acts 14:22
strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and saying that through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God.

Romans 11:22
Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.

1 Timothy 5:8
If any one does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his own family, he has disowned the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.


Matthew 25 does not teach salvation by works—the ""sheep"" are already called righteous before a single work is mentioned (Matt 25:37), showing their actions are evidence, not the cause.

It was known before the foundation of the world which people would be faithful until they died. They were separated into sheep and goats according to this foreknowledge. Matthew 25:34

Jesus is consistent: ""He that believeth - hath everlasting life"" (Jn 6:47),
""He that believeth is not condemned"" (Jn 3:18)
""Whoever believes - receives remission of sins"" (Acts 10:43).

A person does not believe in God if he does not obey his commandments.

1 Peter 4:17
For the time has come for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?

2 Thessalonians 1:7b-9
when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 inflicting vengeance upon those who do not know God and upon those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,


Paul reinforces the same truth: Justified by the faith of Christ & ""not by works"" (Gal 2:16)
""Not of works, lest any man should boast"" (Eph 2:9).

Jesus saves us first by as his gift to us. Ephesians 2:8-9
Then we must do the works that the Father has prepared for us to do in order to inherit eternal life. Ephesians 2:10, Luke 6:46, Luke 13:24-27

James 1:22 addresses spiritual maturity among believers (James 1:18), not how to obtain eternal life.

Obedience in doing good works leads to eternal life. Disobedience to God's commandments (evil works) leads to hellfire.

John 5:28-29
Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.


The people rejected in Matthew 7:21–23 were rejected because they trusted their works > ""Have we not done many wonderful works?"" > not because they lacked them.

These people led a double life.

They were rejected because in public, they did good deeds, but in private, they did evil deeds.

Matthew 15:8
“‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.

Mark 7:20-22

He went on: “What comes out of a person is what defiles them. 21 For it is from within, out of a person’s heart, that evil thoughts come—sexual immorality, theft, murder, 22 adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly.
 
Upvote 0

BrotherJJ

Well-Known Member
Jul 23, 2019
1,194
441
North America
✟208,097.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
How is a person first saved?

Mark 16:15-16
And he said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to the whole creation. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.


How does a person continue to be saved?

One example:


1 Timothy 2:15
Yet woman will be saved through bearing children, if she continues in faith and love and holiness, with modesty.

Salvation is not a one-time event. It is a lifelong process.

Acts 14:22
strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and saying that through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God.

Romans 11:22
Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.

1 Timothy 5:8
If any one does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his own family, he has disowned the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.




It was known before the foundation of the world which people would be faithful until they died. They were separated into sheep and goats according to this foreknowledge. Matthew 25:34



A person does not believe in God if he does not obey his commandments.

1 Peter 4:17
For the time has come for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?

2 Thessalonians 1:7b-9
when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 inflicting vengeance upon those who do not know God and upon those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,




Jesus saves us first by as his gift to us. Ephesians 2:8-9
Then we must do the works that the Father has prepared for us to do in order to inherit eternal life. Ephesians 2:10, Luke 6:46, Luke 13:24-27



Obedience in doing good works leads to eternal life. Disobedience to God's commandments (evil works) leads to hellfire.

John 5:28-29
Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.




These people led a double life.

They were rejected because in public, they did good deeds, but in private, they did evil deeds.

Matthew 15:8
“‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.

Mark 7:20-22

He went on: “What comes out of a person is what defiles them. 21 For it is from within, out of a person’s heart, that evil thoughts come—sexual immorality, theft, murder, 22 adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly.
A lot of verses are being quoted, but the key to understanding them is recognizing that the Bible uses the word salvation in more than one way.

The apostles consistently distinguish how a person is 1st saved (justification). From how saved people grow (sanctification). And how God completes His work at the end (glorification).

When those categories are kept separate, every verse falls into place. Verses like Mark 16:16, Romans 10:9–10 & Acts 10:43 describe how a person enters salvation—by believing the gospel.

Verses about continuing, enduring, obeying, or being faithful (Acts 14:22; Rom 11:22; 1 Tim 2:15) describe the life of a believer, not the basis of justification. Paul is explicit that justification is a completed act received by faith apart from works (Rom 4:5; Rom 3:28; Eph 2:8–9; Titus 3:5).

Works come afterward as the fruit/evidence of salvation (Eph 2:10) not the cause of it.

Judgment passages like Matthew 25 & John 5:28–29 show that works reveal the nature of a person’s faith, not that eternal life is earned by performance.

The apostles always keep the order the same: grace > faith > justification > obedience > final reward.

Mixing those categories makes obedience the cause of salvation instead of its evidence. Something neither Jesus nor the apostles ever teach.
 
Upvote 0

Jan001

Striving to win the prize...
Site Supporter
Oct 17, 2013
3,029
467
Midwest
✟230,180.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
The apostles always keep the order the same: grace > faith > justification > obedience > final reward.

Mixing those categories makes obedience the cause of salvation instead of its evidence. Something neither Jesus nor the apostles ever teach.
I agree that obedience is not the cause of salvation.

However, disobedience and unrepentance are the cause of the loss of salvation.
 
Upvote 0

BrotherJJ

Well-Known Member
Jul 23, 2019
1,194
441
North America
✟208,097.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
I agree that obedience is not the cause of salvation.

However, disobedience and unrepentance are the cause of the loss of salvation.
Those 2 claims cannot both be true. If disobedience causes you to lose salvation, then obedience is what keeps you saved. Which means obedience is the cause of salvation after all.

That directly contradicts Paul's teaching that justification is ""to him that worketh not"" (Rom 4:5), ""apart from works"" (Rom 3:28) & ""not of works"" (Eph 2:9).

Scripture never teaches ""saved by grace but kept by performance."" The same grace that saves is the grace that keeps (Rom 5:1–2; Phil 1:6; 1 Thess 5:23–24).

Disobedience affects fellowship, fruitfulness & reward, but never the believer's justification. If salvation can be lost by works, then salvation was never by grace to begin with & scripture is clear that what God gives by grace cannot be undone by human failure. Salvation, once received, given cannot be lost (Rom 1:29). Salvation - Eternal life is explicitly called a gift (Rom 6:23).
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Jan001

Striving to win the prize...
Site Supporter
Oct 17, 2013
3,029
467
Midwest
✟230,180.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Disobedience affects fellowship, fruitfulness & reward, but never the believer's justification. If salvation can be lost by works, then salvation was never by grace to begin with & scripture is clear that what God gives by grace cannot be undone by human failure. Salvation, once received, given cannot be lost.
What do you think the following Scripture verses meant to these Jewish/Hebrew Christians?

Hebrews 4:6, 11
Therefore since it still remains for some to enter that rest, and since those who formerly had the good news proclaimed to them did not go in because of their disobedience,......11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience.

It seems to me that the writer of Hebrews is stating that disobedient Christians will not enter into eternal rest with God. They will be condemned to hellfire.

John 5:28-30
Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which
all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
 
Upvote 0