Grace... another angle....

[StormyOne]

If the Church can no longer offer grace, then what does it exist for, what is its purpose? As Yancey says: 'MacDonald has put his finger on the church's single most important contribution. Where else can the world go to find grace?'

'Ah, what a thing is man devoid of grace', sighed the poet George Herbert.

... I ... think of that line ... when I visit certain churches. Like fine wine poured into a jug of water, Jesus' wondrous message of grace gets diluted in the vessel of the church. 'For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth come through Jesus Christ', wrote the apostle John. Christians have spent enormous energy over the years debating and decreeing truth; every church defends its particular version. What about grace? How rare to to find a church competing to 'out-grace' its rivals.

Grace is Christianity's best gift to the world, a spiritual nova in our midst exerting a force far stronger than vengeance, stronger than racism, stronger than hate. Sadly, to a world desperate for this grace the church sometimes presents one more form of ungrace.

http://www.heureka.clara.net/books/grace.htm


The book is called What's so amazing about Grace. The author is Phillip Yancy.... I recommend it....

 

[HoneyDew]

bump

 

[StormyOne]

thought I would revisit this.... some folks are afraid of the concept of grace.... why?

 

[Sophia7]

thought I would revisit this.... some folks are afraid of the concept of grace.... why?

Some Adventists seem to think that those who talk about grace are endorsing a license to sin.

 

[NightEternal]

Boy, I hear that Sophia. If I had a dollar for every cheap grace/new theology/sloppy agape slur that has been thrown my way by the Trads, I would be a rich man. And let's not forget that old standby we have all heard: "Well, they must be harboring secret sin in thier lives." And then they react with suprise that you would be insulted by such a claim, as if there was any remote, possible reason you would not be.

And I'm not just talking about on this forum either. This is a plague in the church as well.

Let's face it: Adventism breeds legalism like a rain puddle breeds mosquitoes. It is intertwined in the very concept of justification by sanctification. It's embodied in the very statements of EGW which promote sinless perfection theology. SDA's don't realize how close to Rome they are in thier salvation soteriology.

It's also imbedded in human nature to frown upon the 'free lunch' crowd. We demand people work for things, earn the good things that are provided for them. Salvation is a reward in exchange for services rendered instead of a gift freely given to them. You do not earn a free gift, neither do you work to maintain a free gift already given. Whenever an Adventist endorses salvation alone, by faith alone, in Christ alone, they are regarded by the Trads as some soft on sin liberal who is pandering a 'welfare' type salvation.

 

[StormyOne]

Boy, I hear that Sophia. If I had a dollar for every cheap grace/new theology/sloppy agape slur that has been thrown my way by the Trads, I would be a rich man. And let's not forget that old standby we have all heard: "Well, they must be harboring secret sin in thier lives." And then they react with suprise that you would be insulted by such a claim, as if there was any remote, possible reason you would not be.

And I'm not just talking about on this forum either. This is a plague in the church as well.

Let's face it: Adventism breeds legalism like a rain puddle breeds mosquitoes. It is intertwined in the very concept of justification by sanctification. It's embodied in the very statements of EGW which promote sinless perfection theology. SDA's don't realize how close to Rome they are in thier salvation soteriology.

It's also imbedded in human nature to frown upon the 'free lunch' crowd. We demand people work for things, earn the good things that are provided for them. Salvation is a reward in exchange for services rendered instead of a gift freely given to them. You do not earn a free gift, neither do you work to maintain a free gift already given. Whenever an Adventist endorses salvation alone, by faith alone, in Christ alone, they are regarded by the Trads as some soft on sin liberal who is pandering a 'welfare' type salvation.

so basically people really deep down do not believe in grace and they do not believe that salvation is free.... it is interesting because you would think that true parenting would give most a glimpse of how God works... the bible is full of examples about parent/child relationships for a reason.... but most miss it....

 

[DrStupid_Ben]

We were so lucky this weekend to have Phillip Yancey at Avondale. He took a program on friday night for his new book Prayer, and then stayed and took our sermon the next morning on grace!

 

[StormyOne]

We were so lucky this weekend to have Phillip Yancey at Avondale. He took a program on friday night for his new book Prayer, and then stayed and took our sermon the next morning on grace!

cool.... anything that stuck out that you care to share?

 

[DrStupid_Ben]

cool.... anything that stuck out that you care to share?

The guy has an important message to Christians - "show more Christ, show more grace"

He talked alot about how Jesus hung around the prostitutes and tax-collectors. He talked about how the world is run by the laws of un-grace (gravity - where we always push others down), but God calls us to live by the laws of grace (which defies the worlds gravity)

He also talked briefly about Virginia Tech and the question "Where is God when bad things happen?" and he turned the question to "Where is the church when bad things happen?".

He also talked about how he loves Adventists because they are serious about truth, but challenged us to be more serious about grace. He talked about being a "church with grace" rather than a "church with the truth".

 

[StormyOne]

The guy has an important message to Christians - "show more Christ, show more grace"

He talked alot about how Jesus hung around the prostitutes and tax-collectors. He talked about how the world is run by the laws of un-grace (gravity - where we always push others down), but God calls us to live by the laws of grace (which defies the worlds gravity)

He also talked briefly about Virginia Tech and the question "Where is God when bad things happen?" and he turned the question to "Where is the church when bad things happen?".

He also talked about how he loves Adventists because they are serious about truth, but challenged us to be more serious about grace. He talked about being a "church with grace" rather than a "church with the truth".

very true.... that is usually the comment.... where is our love... and which is more important, to have truth or to have love?

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

The problem with grace is as the Michael Anderson song says: "love is the hard part".
We often have no problem saying: that God loves us unconditionally but we seem to have a problem with the idea that God forgives us unconditionally. We often return to our human way of thinking and view everything as if it were a crime and punishment issue.


It seems so much easier to punish then to forgive it is it seems our natural desire to punish those who hurt us. That is why love is the hardest part. It does not leave our natural desires to do as they would want. It calls us to a far deeper level, the level of love. And we don’t know much about love.



So we don't do well showing grace to others and then we don't do well showing the grace of God.



PS can you imagine the firestorm in the other forum if I said God forgives unconditionally? Yet I bet they would accept that God loves unconditionally.

 

[StormyOne]

The problem with grace is as the Michael Anderson song says: "love is the hard part".
We often have no problem saying: that God loves us unconditionally but we seem to have a problem with the idea that God forgives us unconditionally. We often return to our human way of thinking and view everything as if it were a crime and punishment issue.


It seems so much easier to punish then to forgive it is it seems our natural desire to punish those who hurt us. That is why love is the hardest part. It does not leave our natural desires to do as they would want. It calls us to a far deeper level, the level of love. And we don’t know much about love.



So we don't do well showing grace to others and then we don't do well showing the grace of God.



PS can you imagine the firestorm in the other forum if I said God forgives unconditionally? Yet I bet they would accept that God loves unconditionally.

but isn't that at the heart of the idea Jesus put forth when he said, Love your enemies?" And doesn't it beg the question if Jesus said love your enemies, does that mean God loves his enemies? Including Satan?

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

Yes it is pretty clearly taught Biblically but many Christian traditions muddy the water. My bumper sticker philosophy of Religion is "you get what you want" If you want to be with God He is ready and able to reconcile with you, if you don't want to be with God He will let you have your desire there also. But since God is life, separating from God means separating from life. Which goes back to the words of Joshua, "choose life".