Grace and works

[Shane Reynolds]

Hello,

I am a new member here at the christian forums and as of late I have been increasingly more interested in the christian faith. I do plan on reading the christian bible soon, but in the meanwhile I have been doing some basic investigating of some of the core tenets of Christianity. So far, I am pleased about the many things I have learned and I am inclined to convert (a idea that has been lingering on in the back of my head for a while now). There is however one idea that has stumped me, and that is the idea of grace and works.

It seems like many of discussions about this topic conclude with the idea that grace alone is necessary for to attain salvation. This is really a stark distinction from the principles I have lived my whole life by and I believed being a good person was also very imperative. This was something hitherto never had to question.

If grace alone is the only deciding factor, then can even the worst of human beings attain salvation as long as they accept Jesus as their lord and savior? If so, what is the point of being a good person anyways?

 

[Goodhuman]

Indeed the grace of the Holy Spirit is the one thing needed for salvation. If you die while you having this grace you will go to heaven. But this grace is given only for good works.

 

[Job3315]

Hello,

I am a new member here at the christian forums and as of late I have been increasingly more interested in the christian faith. I do plan on reading the christian bible soon, but in the meanwhile I have been doing some basic investigating of some of the core tenets of Christianity. So far, I am pleased about the many things I have learned and I am inclined to convert (a idea that has been lingering on in the back of my head for a while now). There is however one idea that has stumped me, and that is the idea of grace and works.

It seems like many of discussions about this topic conclude with the idea that grace alone is necessary for to attain salvation. This is really a stark distinction from the principles I have lived my whole life by and I believed being a good person was also very imperative. This was something hitherto never had to question.

If grace alone is the only deciding factor, then can even the worst of human beings attain salvation as long as they accept Jesus as their lord and savior? If so, what is the point of being a good person anyways?

In the Garden of Eden, Adam and Eve lost their God-given nature; they spiritually died. Jesus came to restore that nature back to us; we born again when we believe Jesus is our Lord and Savior. People can do a lot of good without God's Spirit in them, but that is just works. When you are born again and have the Spirit of God in you, then you start living from identity. You become a son, and as a son, you learn from his Father. So, you don't behave to become, you do because of who you are, a son of the living God.

 

[Goodhuman]

I deny to believe we are born sinful. Demons are born sinful, not humans. I deny to believe Adam sinned for me. I believe if I sin, it is my wrong, not of other. God is just, he want everybody to be punished for their own sins, not of others. Revelation says we all will be judged according to our works, and our reward will be according to our works. Jesus: And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. Romans 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:. I believe our nature is same from the moment we were created until now and we are born sinless, because babies are pure. How you can say Jesus is pure if he is human? Indeed, because he is human he is pure, because humans are born pure! I don't believe we instantly get born again when we believe in Jesus, I believe the salvation (being born again) is the end of our faith, as it happens in the end. Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. Saints believe only works done for Jesus are of salvation matter.

 

[Duke of Stratford]

Hello!

There does tend to be a lot of debate in exactly how works align with grace, but the Christian consensus is that grace is unwarranted favor. You don’t receive God’s Grace by being a good person, but through faith in Jesus Christ as the Son of God who lived a perfect life, died on the cross for your sins, and was raised from the dead.

A lot of Jesus’ ministry and teaching was focused on conduct and behavior. Good works are expected from Christians, but not because we’re trying to earn or keep salvation. When you love someone and submit to their authority because they know what’s best for you, you do what they say: that’s the gist of it. Good works don’t create faith, but they are a result of faith.

It doesn’t mean we do it perfectly—we still sin because we’re human—but we make an effort, and we generally see a trend of moral improvement over the course of life. Again, that doesn’t mean a person never backslides or falls into bad behavior or struggles against sin. We repent, and Christ’s sacrifice atones for our sins and allows us to receive forgiveness.

It’s sometimes hard for us to understand the way grace and works interplay in our lives, so that’s another thing we try to improve on. It’s easy to fall into one of two camps:

1. I’m already saved, so I can just do whatever I want!
2. I need to keep doing good works and maintaining good behavior to maintain God’s grace.

Neither is correct. I think C.S. Lewis summarizes it really well:

To have Faith in Christ means, of course, trying to do all that He says. There would be no sense in saying you trusted a person if you would not take his advice. Thus if you have really handed yourself over to Him, it must follow that you are trying to obey Him. But trying in a new way, a less worried way. Not doing these things in order to be saved, but because He has begun to save you already. Not hoping to get to Heaven as a reward for your actions, but inevitably wanting to act in a certain way because a first faint gleam of Heaven is already inside you.

I hope this helps to clarify things a little! It can still be hard to understand in practice, but faith is a lifelong thing, and our understanding deepens with time.

 

[Shane Reynolds]

Hello!

There does tend to be a lot of debate in exactly how works align with grace, but the Christian consensus is that grace is unwarranted favor. You don’t receive God’s Grace by being a good person, but through faith in Jesus Christ as the Son of God who lived a perfect life, died on the cross for your sins, and was raised from the dead.

A lot of Jesus’ ministry and teaching was focused on conduct and behavior. Good works are expected from Christians, but not because we’re trying to earn or keep salvation. When you love someone and submit to their authority because they know what’s best for you, you do what they say: that’s the gist of it. Good works don’t create faith, but they are a result of faith.

It doesn’t mean we do it perfectly—we still sin because we’re human—but we make an effort, and we generally see a trend of moral improvement over the course of life. Again, that doesn’t mean a person never backslides or falls into bad behavior or struggles against sin. We repent, and Christ’s sacrifice atones for our sins and allows us to receive forgiveness.

It’s sometimes hard for us to understand the way grace and works interplay in our lives, so that’s another thing we try to improve on. It’s easy to fall into one of two camps:

1. I’m already saved, so I can just do whatever I want!
2. I need to keep doing good works and maintaining good behavior to maintain God’s grace.

Neither is correct. I think C.S. Lewis summarizes it really well:


I hope this helps to clarify things a little! It can still be hard to understand in practice, but faith is a lifelong thing, and our understanding deepens with time.

I see, and I think I am starting to understand. How would you explain terrible people who never improved? Who never repented their sin but still has immense faith in Christ? What if you don't act in a a certain way becaue "a first gleam of heaven is inside you"? An example would be constituents of the KuKluxKlan.

 

[Duke of Stratford]

I see, and I think I am starting to understand. How would you explain terrible people who never improved? Who never repented their sin but still has immense faith in Christ? What if you don't act in a a certain way becaue "a first gleam of heaven is inside you"? An example would be constituents of the KuKluxKlan.

Yeah—that’s where things can sometimes get difficult. I’ll say this: repentance is part of faith in Christ. Our repentance isn’t always flawless, especially not as new Christians, but repentance is key. But when we’re viewing other people, we don’t always know whether or not they’ve repented. All we see is their behavior. Repentance leads to a change in behavior, but it isn’t always obvious or immediate, and it can often be very gradual. As people, we don’t necessarily know what’s going on in other people’s hearts, which can make it difficult to discern. For people we’re close to, we’re able to communicate and talk with them to work things out. But for people we don’t know, that’s tricky.

There are people who pay lip service to the gospel without actually changing or believing in a way that shows faith. That can manifest in a bunch of different ways, from people who try to use grace as a license to sin to people who use their Christian status to be self-righteous and prideful. With the example you gave, the KKK member, I generally hesitate to consider anyone so dedicated to hating a group of people (especially on the grounds of race) a real Christian.

On the other hand, people grow at different rates, and we may not know how God is transforming them. Sometimes it takes people a very long time to improve. In that sense, I like to give people the benefit of the doubt. Doesn’t mean I approve of their behavior, but I have to understand that I may not know the full story.

So, yeah, it’s hard. To summarize, repenting of sin is essential, but we don’t always know the state of someone’s heart. It is possible that someone isn’t actually a Christian even if they claim to be. Discernment is key in situations like this. And we’re all learning. Human behavior is weird and confusing. I’m far from an expert—just sharing my own understanding!

 

[TzephanYahu]

Shalom @Shane Reynolds

That's great news that you are about to start reading through the Bible. If you are looking for a beginner's reading plan, just to get to know the whole story, let me know.

You have done very well to see this issue from the start.

The majority of Christians say "Grace alone" for their walk, but in error. This stems from poor teachings from the Church and a butcherisation of the letters of the apostle Paul (in the New Testament).

Now, don't get me wrong, salvation IS through Grace alone. It is a free gift from Yahweh through His Son. There is nothing you can do to deserve it or attain it by being "good".

That said, once we have accepted the amazing gift of salvation and repented of our former ways, how then should we act?

We should act as the one we follow, Jesus. Paying heed to the heart of Torah (the Law) and changing our former ways to His ways, so that we can reflect the light He shined in these dark days.

However the "Grace alone" mentality is lazy, without clear direction, hazy on what is and isn't righteousness, uncshooled in the beauty of Torah and in deeds no different to another caring, loving atheist, buddhist or muslim.

Therefore, we are saved BY Grace to serve Him - wilfully anf joyfully (which will come the more you read and understand the whole Bible). Not in order to BE saved but because we ARE saved in Him. Serving because we CHOOSE to, not because we HAVE to.

Hopefully that makes sense!

May Yahweh fill you with wisdom on your journey

Love & Shalom

 

[klutedavid]

Hello,

I am a new member here at the christian forums and as of late I have been increasingly more interested in the christian faith. I do plan on reading the christian bible soon, but in the meanwhile I have been doing some basic investigating of some of the core tenets of Christianity. So far, I am pleased about the many things I have learned and I am inclined to convert (a idea that has been lingering on in the back of my head for a while now). There is however one idea that has stumped me, and that is the idea of grace and works.

It seems like many of discussions about this topic conclude with the idea that grace alone is necessary for to attain salvation. This is really a stark distinction from the principles I have lived my whole life by and I believed being a good person was also very imperative. This was something hitherto never had to question.

If grace alone is the only deciding factor, then can even the worst of human beings attain salvation as long as they accept Jesus as their lord and savior? If so, what is the point of being a good person anyways?

This question of yours can be answered easily.

Obviously, no one enters heaven, unless they believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. That is the fundamental doctrine of Christianity.

The apostles then said that you receive the Holy Spirit, when you believe in Jesus.

This is the first point.
One cannot receive the Holy Spirit without responding to the call of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

The second point.
The Holy Spirit enables us to love others.

The third point.
Good works are really the only way, that you can know who is a Christian.

Therefore, since one must first be a believer in Jesus, in order to produce that love towards others. Then grace must come before works. So it's not faith plus works. It is grace first and works should follow.

 

[eleos1954]

Hello,

I am a new member here at the christian forums and as of late I have been increasingly more interested in the christian faith. I do plan on reading the christian bible soon, but in the meanwhile I have been doing some basic investigating of some of the core tenets of Christianity. So far, I am pleased about the many things I have learned and I am inclined to convert (a idea that has been lingering on in the back of my head for a while now). There is however one idea that has stumped me, and that is the idea of grace and works.

It seems like many of discussions about this topic conclude with the idea that grace alone is necessary for to attain salvation. This is really a stark distinction from the principles I have lived my whole life by and I believed being a good person was also very imperative. This was something hitherto never had to question.

If grace alone is the only deciding factor, then can even the worst of human beings attain salvation as long as they accept Jesus as their lord and savior? If so, what is the point of being a good person anyways?

If one is saved they WILL have good works. The good works are evidence that one has been saved.

It's not grace alone

Grace is God’s unmerited favor towards sinners. It is the essence of the Gospel: in Acts 20:24, the apostle Paul refers to “the gospel of the grace of God.” It is a gift: “…all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus” (Romans 3:24).

A gift is free to the receiver, but not to the giver, who bears the cost. The gift of salvation is free to everyone who accepts it by faith, Jesus died in our place in order to offer it to us. How extraordinary is this grace, because the gift of salvation is ours to keep! God’s grace is ours for as long as we choose to accept it.

When one accepts Jesus as their Lord and Savior ... the Holy Spirit works in the believer changing their thinking and thereby their actions are being changed ... sanctifying the believer (conforming them into the image of Christ) .... this is ongoing in the believer until the Lord returns.

 

[HTacianas]

Hello,

I am a new member here at the christian forums and as of late I have been increasingly more interested in the christian faith. I do plan on reading the christian bible soon, but in the meanwhile I have been doing some basic investigating of some of the core tenets of Christianity. So far, I am pleased about the many things I have learned and I am inclined to convert (a idea that has been lingering on in the back of my head for a while now). There is however one idea that has stumped me, and that is the idea of grace and works.

It seems like many of discussions about this topic conclude with the idea that grace alone is necessary for to attain salvation. This is really a stark distinction from the principles I have lived my whole life by and I believed being a good person was also very imperative. This was something hitherto never had to question.

If grace alone is the only deciding factor, then can even the worst of human beings attain salvation as long as they accept Jesus as their lord and savior? If so, what is the point of being a good person anyways?

It is by grace through faith that we enter into salvation. It is our works afterwards that determine if we remain in that salvation.

 

[crossnote]

If grace alone is the only deciding factor, then can even the worst of human beings attain salvation as long as they accept Jesus as their lord and savior? If so, what is the point of being a good person anyways?

That's the point when it comes to salvation...our 'goodness', 'godliness', 'works' etc., just isn't enough. It takes the God/man and His Perfect righteousness credited freely to our account to save us.

 

[Soyeong]

Hello,

I am a new member here at the christian forums and as of late I have been increasingly more interested in the christian faith. I do plan on reading the christian bible soon, but in the meanwhile I have been doing some basic investigating of some of the core tenets of Christianity. So far, I am pleased about the many things I have learned and I am inclined to convert (a idea that has been lingering on in the back of my head for a while now). There is however one idea that has stumped me, and that is the idea of grace and works.

It seems like many of discussions about this topic conclude with the idea that grace alone is necessary for to attain salvation. This is really a stark distinction from the principles I have lived my whole life by and I believed being a good person was also very imperative. This was something hitherto never had to question.

If grace alone is the only deciding factor, then can even the worst of human beings attain salvation as long as they accept Jesus as their lord and savior? If so, what is the point of being a good person anyways?

Hello,

The the issue is that there is a world of difference between saying that we need to obey God's law and saying that we need to obey God's law in order to earn our salvation. If our obedience to God's law were for God's good, then it would be about trying to earn our salvation through our works, however, it was given for our own good (Deuteronomy 6:24, 10:12-13), so our obedience is instead about putting our faith in God to guide us in how to rightly live, and it is by that same faith that we are saved, which is why Jesus said in Matthew 23:23 that faith is one of the weightier matters of the law.

To use an analogy, if a professional musician were to train me how to play an instrument as a free gift to me, then the training itself would be the content of the gift and participating in that training would be doing nothing to earn it, but rather that is what it would look like to receive their gift.

In Psalms 119:29, David wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and in Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, which is what God's law was given to instruct how to do, so God graciously teaching us to do good works in obedience to His law is itself part of the content of His free gift of salvation, and participating in that training does nothing to earn it, but rather that is what it looks like to receive it. Our salvation is from sin and sin is the transgression of God’s law (1 John 3:4), so being trained by grace to live in obedience to God’s law through faith is what Jesus saving us from living in transgression of God’s law looks like.

 

[John Helpher]

If grace alone is the only deciding factor, then can even the worst of human beings attain salvation as long as they accept Jesus as their lord and savior? If so, what is the point of being a good person anyways?

It could be helpful for you to view God as an employer and we humans as prospective hires. The boss wants to know if we'll listen to his instructions on how to get the job done and if we'll do the job sincerely. If we make mistakes along the way and recognize those mistakes the boss is likely to give us another chance.

However, if an employee decided to stop doing the job while still collecting his pay on the understanding that the boss will just forgive anyway, then the boss is likely to interpret this behavior as taking his kindness for weakness and will not continue to extend grace. The boss isn't stupid. He can see who is sincere and who is just trying to game the system.

Anyone who doesn't want to do the job will not be hired and anyone who does want to do the job will be hired even though they make mistakes along the way. This works even if you put yourself in the boss' position; if you are responsible for hiring employees, you'd rather have a person who's trying sincerely, despite often making mistakes, than a person who just tells you what you want to hear without actually doing the job, right?

 

[Shane Reynolds]

It could be helpful for you to view God as an employer and we humans as prospective hires. The boss wants to know if we'll listen to his instructions on how to get the job done and if we'll do the job sincerely. If we make mistakes along the way and recognize those mistakes the boss is likely to give us another chance.

However, if an employee decided to stop doing the job while still collecting his pay on the understanding that the boss will just forgive anyway, then the boss is likely to interpret this behavior as taking his kindness for weakness and will not continue to extend grace. The boss isn't stupid. He can see who is sincere and who is just trying to game the system.

Anyone who doesn't want to do the job will not be hired and anyone who does want to do the job will be hired even though they make mistakes along the way. This works even if you put yourself in the boss' position; if you are responsible for hiring employees, you'd rather have a person who's trying sincerely, despite often making mistakes, than a person who just tells you what you want to hear without actually doing the job, right?

That is a very intriguing analogy.

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

That is a very intriguing analogy.

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

That is a very intriguing analogy.

Yes, it is.......unfortunately , it is very UnBiblical......It is an addition to the Gospel Of Pure Grace, an “Accursed Gospel”, as Paul would put it.....Believing this will make you a candidate to ...”fall from Grace”
The only “ Job” we have is to REST in the Gospel Of Grace.....Refuse to do this and God says you are being “ disobedient” and you are guilty of “ Unbelief”..