Grace and Forgiveness

[LoveDivine]

Something that has been on my mind recently is how easy it is for us as Christians to forget our own sins and past and harshly critique the lives of others. You can often see evidence of that mindset on sites like this forum. When I say "critique" I am not referring to those who hold to the Biblical view of sin and seek to uphold a high standard. That is commendable and should be the focus of every Christian. I do believe there is a delicate balance between upholding this standard graciously and condemning others. I think it is so easy for Christians to view or categorize themselves and other professing Christians into two groups: those with a past and those who have always been faithful. I think this is where many Christians err. I think the more a person contemplates his own life and sinfulness, the greater appreciation he should have for Christ and the more grace and compassion he should exude towards his fellow Christians. I think one of the greatest examples of this point is contained in Luke 7.

The story of the sinful woman who washed Jesus' feet with her tears and dried them with her hair. What I have always found so touching about this story was the woman's total lack of regard for her own personal dignity and her obvious love for Christ. She had lived a very outwardly sinful life as was evidenced by the Pharisees comments concerning her display of devotion. "This man if he were a prophet, would know who and what manner of woman this is who is touching him, for she is a sinner." Clearly, they did not consider themselves to be sinners in the same regard that she was. She was a sinner. They, in their own opinion, were devout Jews who had carefully followed the law of Moses. I think they based this view on the fact that they had lived an outwardly moral life and had followed the teachings of Moses. Yet, they didn't have the idea or desire to show that level of devotion to Christ. I think Christ's answer to them was also intriguing. "Therefore I say to you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven, for she loved much. But to whom little is forgiven, the same loves little.”

I think an important thought to take from this is that every Christian should be aware of just how much they are in need of grace and their own level of sinfulness. I don't think Christ actually believed that anyone was forgiven of little, but he answered the Pharisees according to what he knew they believed of themselves. I think it is easy to extend this level of grace and forgiveness towards others when we have the right concept of our own need of grace.

 

[ReesePiece23]

I'm FAR from an ideal Christian. I'm well aware of that.

 

[Goodbook]

All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
To say we had no sin, is a lie.

I think the ones who are closest to Jesus appreciate just how much they need Him in their lives. The Pharisees of course, had no need of Jesus, they put their faith in their own works, not His.

If you have a doctrine in which you dont actually hear the gospel and just assume you are christian because maybe you stayed in church or were somehow amongst the chosen ones...it can really mess you up. We must look to the cross and realise it is by grace we are saved, and that Jesus did not come to condemn anybody. Without Jesus we are nothing.

Plenty of people believe in God and think they know God but dont actually believe in Jesus. Yet how can we truly Know God if we dont believe he sent his only son for us? We have to know this in our hearts.

 

[Goodbook]

When people talk about devout christians they often say this in a kind of derogatory manner ive noticed. Yet there is nothing wrong with showing devotion to our saviour, because we have been saved, from the wages of sin..death.

Jesus said the pharisees already had their reward which they continually congratulated themselves over. I suppose its the difference between religious piety and true devotion, which comes from being forgiven and thankful.

I often hear atheists pride themselves on being good people. Christians can fall into that trap too instead of being humble. Even Jesus said dont call me good...only his Father is good. Everything he did was because he listened to and obeyed his Heavenly Father...

 

[SnowyMacie]

People are too concerned with specks in other people's eyes while ignoring the planks in their own.

 

[Tom Mix]

No one perfect in my house but I am covered by grace because I believe in Jesus as my Lord and Savior.

I believe that those who have been Christian are laze and snobs. They do not understand the pain and suffering that those of us who live a wicked life have to go thru to get the world out of us. It is very hard. The walk is a great walk but hard. Those that never had the world in them do not understand what it is like getting it burned out of them.

 

[High Fidelity]

Something that has been on my mind recently is how easy it is for us as Christians to forget our own sins and past and harshly critique the lives of others. You can often see evidence of that mindset on sites like this forum. When I say "critique" I am not referring to those who hold to the Biblical view of sin and seek to uphold a high standard. That is commendable and should be the focus of every Christian. I do believe there is a delicate balance between upholding this standard graciously and condemning others.

It's sometimes difficult to discern between the two and I imagine most people wrongly interpret rigorous standards as being condemning or judgemental. I have no issue addressing the speck in someone else's eye if it's no longer an issue for myself. That's not to presuppose superiority or anything like it, but it is to say that it's an issue I've overcome and consider it good Christian conduct to help address and aid it in others.

I said in another thread recently that iron sharpens iron. Metal on metal in that context is always going to be what amounts to abrasive and quite a violent coming together and I think that sometimes isn't understood. Sharpening one another isn't always going to be easy or painless; sometimes it's necessary to shock someone to the core because they're so wrapped up in their ignorance and entrenched in their position that they can't see it themselves. That's just an example of what rebuking someone(which we are supposed to do) can do. We need to understand that first and foremost we're Christian and the obligations of a Christian outweigh our obligations to someone as a friend; it's unloving, in my opinion, to stay silent in observation of unrepentant, especially if it's persistent, sin.

Anyway, just woke up(lol) so probably makes no sense and no structure, but yeah.

 

[Goodbook]

Well there is NO comdemnation for those who are IN christ Jesus, those who walk after the spirit, not the flesh.

If you do find someone who says they are christian but walking after the flesh and not yielding to the spirit, you can warn them. We are to restore them gently.

 

[Gnarwhal]

No one perfect in my house but I am covered by grace because I believe in Jesus as my Lord and Savior.

I believe that those who have been Christian are laze and snobs. They do not understand the pain and suffering that those of us who live a wicked life have to go thru to get the world out of us. It is very hard. The walk is a great walk but hard. Those that never had the world in them do not understand what it is like getting it burned out of them.

That's a sweeping generalization and a very inaccurate judgment. What you're saying here is exactly what the OP is talking about. I was raised as a Christian and that didn't exempt me from pain, suffering, hardship and transformation. Your first mistake here is calling us snobs, the second mistake is creating an "us and them" picture, there's no such thing within the body of Christ.

Your final statement:

Those that never had the world in them do not understand what it is like getting it burned out of them.

Ironically actually makes you sound snobbish. I know you're not, but you diminish your own cachet when you make the statements that you have made in this post.

 

[LoveDivine]

It's sometimes difficult to discern between the two and I imagine most people wrongly interpret rigorous standards as being condemning or judgemental. I have no issue addressing the speck in someone else's eye if it's no longer an issue for myself. That's not to presuppose superiority or anything like it, but it is to say that it's an issue I've overcome and consider it good Christian conduct to help address and aid it in others.

I said in another thread recently that iron sharpens iron. Metal on metal in that context is always going to be what amounts to abrasive and quite a violent coming together and I think that sometimes isn't understood. Sharpening one another isn't always going to be easy or painless; sometimes it's necessary to shock someone to the core because they're so wrapped up in their ignorance and entrenched in their position that they can't see it themselves. That's just an example of what rebuking someone(which we are supposed to do) can do. We need to understand that first and foremost we're Christian and the obligations of a Christian outweigh our obligations to someone as a friend; it's unloving, in my opinion, to stay silent in observation of unrepentant, especially if it's persistent, sin.

Anyway, just woke up(lol) so probably makes no sense and no structure, but yeah.

I agree with you that admonition and correction can be very uncomfortable for the moment. I don't want to downplay in this thread the importance of Christians encouraging their brethren to live a better life and overcome. What I think is the issue is the unloving or uncharitable attitude that many Christians show towards others who they consider to be beneath them spiritually or less "worthy." The Bible does state that "faithful are the wounds of a friend." I believe this verse shows that we may deeply care about the spiritual wellfare of another Christian (who is struggling) and this concern may prompt us to share with them our concerns or correct a certain negative/sinful pattern of behavior. The key is to approach others in compassion and love.

 

[High Fidelity]

Well there is NO comdemnation for those who are IN christ Jesus, those who walk after the spirit, not the flesh.

If you do find someone who says they are christian but walking after the flesh and not yielding to the spirit, you can warn them. We are to restore them gently.

That's my point about iron sharpening iron. In times like that it's difficult because to address the issue you can't really be 'softly softly' in your approach because they're masters of side-stepping, self-justification and loose interpretation to justify their rampant transgression against God.

So it's a case of grabbing the bull by the horns or passively trying to help but in effect doing nothing.

 

[Travelers.Soul]

I think we all need to be reminded of our need not only of forgiveness and grace but of our need to extend it to others. We are commanded to forgive. There is a time and a season for everything. We certainly need to call sin, sin. We are to rebuke or correct our brothers or sisters in love. We need to deal with others truthfully, in the love of Christ, and call back to the fold those who have wandered.

The same mercy and grace that God showed to us (and continues to show to us), we need to show to others. It reminds me of the parable of Matthew 18:21-35. We have been forgiven and we ought to forgive. We have been shown grace and mercy, we should show the same to others. When we are dealing with other people we need to extend to them the same grace and mercy we have been shown. That doesn't mean you do not correct someone in error. We need to love one another. It isn't easy and I am far from perfect yet I am confident that the Lord works in all of his children. He who began a good work in you will complete it. He is shaping and molding us into the image of Christ. I think we could all show a little mercy, grace, and love to one another.

 

[LoveDivine]

No one perfect in my house but I am covered by grace because I believe in Jesus as my Lord and Savior.

I believe that those who have been Christian are laze and snobs. They do not understand the pain and suffering that those of us who live a wicked life have to go thru to get the world out of us. It is very hard. The walk is a great walk but hard. Those that never had the world in them do not understand what it is like getting it burned out of them.

I know what you are trying to say. I do disagree though. I think the whole point of my post was to show that ALL of us have sinned and are in need of redemption. This applies to the drug addict, prostitute, or young person raised in a Christian home. All of us must go through the same process of salvation regardless of our background. It is never pleasant to face your own sinfulness and overcome your struggles and temptations. Perhaps young people who were raised as Christians do not have the same struggle with addictions or outwards sins, but they have their own issues. Sins of the heart can often be more subtle and more painful to root out. Any person who diminishes the struggles of those who came to Christ from more openly sinful backgrounds has missed the essential point of the gospel and Christ's teachings. Sure, I do agree that there are many spiritually lazy and snobbish "life time Christians." However, these people can hardly be called Christians in the proper sense. The first sign of spiritual redemption is a meekness and humility. To really experience salvation a person first has to part with any preconceived notions of their own holiness.

 

[Goodbook]

hmm true. Sometimes you have to speak up. But thats why we speak the truth with love. I think we are to be salty christians but that also means..if we lose our savour, we are useless, because it needs to be seasoned with grace.

 

[LoveDivine]

hmm true. Sometimes you have to speak up. But thats why we speak the truth with love. I think we are to be salty christians but that also means..if we lose our savour, we are useless, because it needs to be seasoned with grace.

Agreed. We must be the salt of the earth. I think that the truth we share is far more effective when we have come to understand ourselves properly. Perhaps the best way to view things is that we should first examine ourselves and take care of our own issues and then we will be prepared to be used by God to reach others. Let our lives and our words win others.

 

[Goodbook]

I find that we can comfort others with the comfort we ourselves have received from Christ.
For example, this Eve's Angels ministry that I was reading about in this book called 'dancing with the devil' was about a raised christian girl who got caught up in the nightclub industry. When she turned to Jesus, and was became born again .eg saved, she found that she could then minister to others who'd never known the gospel in that environment. Because she experienced God's forgiveness first hand and she had a testimony.

Somebody who hadn't been that deep in sin in that environment probably could not understand why some women fall into that trap and be quite judgmental.

 

[High Fidelity]

hmm true. Sometimes you have to speak up. But thats why we speak the truth with love. I think we are to be salty christians but that also means..if we lose our savour, we are useless, because it needs to be seasoned with grace.

Indeed but honestly if they do lose it then it wasn't too much to begin with and living in the flesh and unrepentant sin isn't saving faith anyway. I think some people need to ask themselves those critical questions because it establishes the foundations of their faith; if it's built on sand then they need to address that.

Being seasoned with grace requires a repentant attitude towards faith which a good deal of the people we're discussing don't have. A lot of them see no wrongdoing and don't seek repentance so they can't be seasoned by grace if they don't seek it.

It is in large part why I am evangelical -- because many Christians are perfect examples of needing to be born again.

 

[SnowyMacie]

I think we all need to be reminded of our need not only of forgiveness and grace but of our need to extend it to others. We are commanded to forgive. There is a time and a season for everything. We certainly need to call sin, sin. We are to rebuke or correct our brothers or sisters in love. We need to deal with others truthfully, in the love of Christ, and call back to the fold those who have wandered.

The same mercy and grace that God showed to us (and continues to show to us), we need to show to others. It reminds me of the parable of Matthew 18:21-35. We have been forgiven and we ought to forgive. We have been shown grace and mercy, we should show the same to others. When we are dealing with other people we need to extend to them the same grace and mercy we have been shown. That doesn't mean you do not correct someone in error. We need to love one another. It isn't easy and I am far from perfect yet I am confident that the Lord works in all of his children. He who began a good work in you will complete it. He is shaping and molding us into the image of Christ. I think we could all show a little mercy, grace, and love to one another.

Right, and the thing is that often times people have a hard time making a distinction between the person and what they are doing. It's sort of the logic behind "love the sinner and hate the sin", we don't need to rebuke the person, we need to rebuke the sin, but often times people have a hard time making the distinction. It's typically the more, for lack of a better term, disgusted, by the action, the harder it is we have a time making the distinction the person is not a sum of the action. The psychology of disgust is an incredibly powerful thing, it needed to be when we relied on hunting and gathering for food, and was never meant to apply towards people, but it does. That's why it's so important we make it about the action and not the person, no matter how difficult it may be, no one is ever perfect in that.

 

[LoveDivine]

Indeed but honestly if they do lose it then it wasn't too much to begin with and living in the flesh and unrepentant sin isn't saving faith anyway. I think some people need to ask themselves those critical questions because it establishes the foundations of their faith; if it's built on sand then they need to address that.

Being seasoned with grace requires a repentant attitude towards faith which a good deal of the people we're discussing don't have. A lot of them see no wrongdoing and don't seek repentance so they can't be seasoned by grace if they don't seek it.

It is in large part why I am evangelical -- because many Christians are perfect examples of needing to be born again.

I do agree with you that a profession of faith that is never accompanied by any signs of victory or holiness is not really that valuable or precious of a faith. I personally think that even the weakest of true Christians do at least have seasons of being spiritually alive and free from carnality. I also think it's important to make a distinction between the different types of Christians who struggle. I think there are two kinds of Christians that really show very little sign of overcoming in this life. I think the first group would be Christians who are sincere but are beset by faults. I think they do love God, but fail often and bring forth little visible fruit after conversion. The second group would be those that profess Christ but have never really experienced conversion or had their mindset altered. The second group often justifies their sinful lifestyle and actions. It is not that they simply lack the strength and grace to overcome. They actually defend their sinful practices and interpret Scripture to harmonize with their lifestyle. I think those who are simply "weak" in their faith deserve our prayers and compassion. These are ones most likely to positively respond to the advice and correction of fellow Christians. My original post was intended to remind us all that we are all in need of grace and forgiveness and that it better to adopt a merciful mindset towards others, especially those sincere Christians who are in need of strength.

 

[SnowyMacie]

interpret Scripture to harmonize with their lifestyle.

I wanted to address this as it's been brought up several times in this thread now.

I've been accused to this numerous times on this site, and the truth of the matter is that the reason I have come to my views is because of how seriously I take scripture. After everything I learned in college, I could no longer see scripture as just merely a textbook of laws and facts, but a story about God and His people written in a completely different language, culture, and time. I take sin so seriously that I always look at the context of what Jesus, Paul, the others are saying. When I did that, I discovered that love is what guides the law*, and that God truly does desire mercy over sacrifice. I realized that the principles of the law are more important than the letter of the law*, and actually hold people to a higher standard. There is nothing easy about that, there is nothing comprising about that, if anything, it separates us more from the world because are truly following a higher standard than simply a different one. Furthermore, I also noticed in scripture that God seems so much more concerned about sins between people than personal sin, because that goes back to what Jesus and Paul write about how the entire law* can be summed up with the single command "Love your neighbor as yourself." Jesus' harshest words for those who took advantage, abused, or in anyway misread other people and not for those simply living in personal sin.


*I am not not talking about Levitical law, but simply just the commands of scripture.