Gospel of Christ Not Possible in TE Doctrine?

yeshuasavedme · Dec 24, 2008

yeshuasavedme said:
So where is the Scripture of Truth that the angels read; from which the angel showed Daniel all the things that would happen to his people, from Daniel's time and to the end of times?
Why is that Scripture of Truth missing from a man'made list of "canon"?

Dan 10:21 But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and [there is] none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.
'abal nagad rasham kathab 'emeth 'echad chazaq Miyka'el sar

nagad ; 2) to declare, make known, expound

Gesenius's Lexicon (Help)

``kathab;
1) a writing, document, edict
a) register, enrolment, roll
b) mode of writing, character, letter
c) letter, document, a writing
Gesenius's Lexicon (Help)

```emeth; in truth, truly
Gesenius's Lexicon (Help)

``
-one/echad binds/chazaq [ with me in these things] Michael, [your] prince/sar.

dear gluadys and shernren -and all TE believers who deny the Word of God. Please answer where the Scripture of Truth is to be found in a man-made list of "canon"?

While you are trying to figure out a way to deny that one, also tell me where the Scripture is written that Jesus quotes in Jhn 7:38 "He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water".
You won't find it for searching in a man made list. So why is that Scripture not to be found in a man-made list of "canon"?

yeshuasavedme · Dec 24, 2008

yeshuasavedme said:
dear gluadys and shernren -and all TE believers who deny the Word of God. Please answer where the Scripture of Truth is to be found in a man-made list of "canon"?

While you are trying to figure out a way to deny that one, also tell me where the Scripture is written that Jesus quotes in Jhn 7:38 "He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water".
You won't find it for searching in a man made list. So why is that Scripture not to be found in a man-made list of "canon"?

And while you're trying to remain unbelievers [of absolute truth written by the inspiration of Holy Spirit and denied by you, as truth] in the face of the clear Word of God on those; tell me where Jesus read the Wisdom of God that He quotes from, here:

Luk 11:49 Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and [some] of them they shall slay and persecute: That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;

And then Jesus adds: Luk 11:51 From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.

So why is Abel included in the list of prophets whose blood will be required of "this generation" -and what did Abel prophesy? Why is that "wisdom of God" not to be found written in a man made list of canon?
Do you even have a clue who He is speaking to when He says "this generation" in that passage?

yeshuasavedme · Dec 24, 2008

yeshuasavedme said:
And while you're trying to remain unbelievers [of absolute truth written by the inspiration of Holy Spirit and denied by you, as truth] in the face of the clear Word of God on those; tell me where Jesus read the Wisdom of God that He quotes from, here:

Luk 11:49 Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and [some] of them they shall slay and persecute: That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;

And then Jesus adds: Luk 11:51 From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.

So why is Abel included in the list of prophets whose blood will be required of "this generation" -and what did Abel prophesy? Why is that "wisdom of God" not to be found written in a man made list of canon?
Do you even have a clue who He is speaking to when He says "this generation" in that passage?

And while you are trying to defend your indefensible stands on what is Scripture according to the Holy Spirit and to Jesus, tell me where the Scripture is that Paul read and learned that it is to Jesus Christ that every knee in heaven and earth will bow and that every tongue will confess?

He did not get it from Isaiah, as in Isaiah YHWH is speaking of something He already said before [where is it written already, before Isaiah] and you cannot defend that being Jesus Christ as YHWH come in flesh without having read the fact that it is indeed to Jesus Christ that YHWH declared already -in the past- from before Isaiah wrote the words, that to Him every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess.

Isa 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth [in] righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

When did the Word go out of His mouth in righteousness?
Why is not to be found in the man-made list of Canon?
But Paul read that Word gone out of His mouth in righteousness, and knew from it that it is to Jesus Christ that every knee shall bown and every tongue shall confess.
Why is that Word gone out of the mouth of YHWH in righteousness missing from the man-made list of Canon?

Rom 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
Rom 14:11 For it is written, [As] I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

Phl 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
Phl 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth;
Phl 2:11 And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Paul read "the Word of His mouth which was written" that clearly stated that it is to the name of Jesus that every knee in heaven and in earth should bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. Why is that confession of YHWH, that at the Judgment seat of Jesus Christ every knee shall bow and every tongue confess- missing in the man-made list of canon?
Paul had already read it. Jesus knew it and quoted from it many, many times; but why is it not listed in the man-made list?

yeshuasavedme · Dec 24, 2008

And when you get through trying to figure out where the Scripture of Truth is, that the angels read; and where God swore by Himself that unto the name of Jesus Christ every knee in heaven and in earth would bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is LORD/YHWH; and where the Wisdom of God is to be read, in which He said that He would send to them apostles and prophets and that some of them they would slay and torture; and where Abel's prophecy is to be read, and how that is connected to the avenging of the blood of all the prophets slain, from Abel to Zerubbael, on "this generation"; then I wish for you all to have a very Merry Christmas!

When I return, I'll be happy to refer those of you who do not do your own seeking in the Scriptures for yourselves, for understanding of the doctrine/message of the Word of God, to other references in the Word of God which do refer to Scripture which is not to be found in the "list of canon" which is made by some men, but some of which is found in the list of canon which other NT Believers do accept.

http://gbgm-umc.org/umw/bible/canon2.stm

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Whose Canon? Which Bible?

Protestants tend to think there is only one Bible--ours.
Actually different religious groups of the Judeo-Christian tradition have different biblical canons. ...

a_ntv · Dec 25, 2008

yeshuasavedme said:
BTW: the Holy Spirit did not wait for hundreds of years after the Church was established to call a certain group of men together in one area of the world to decide by thier own concensus [but hardly were they in full agreement] what is "canon". Enoch was called Scripture from the beginning of the NT Church by those who were with Christ.

In Enoch there is no trace of the Fall of Adam and Eve. (the "original sin" is tied to a completely different event)...
In Enoch there is no trace of the Law...
The plot of the Book of Enoch is NOT compatible with the Genesis narrative....

I agree with you that the Book of Enoch is extremely interesting and that was considered Scripture by many Jews in the first century BC and CE. In the the dead Sea scrolls were found more manuscripts of Enoch than of Genesis !!! And undoubtedly Enoch has been a primary source for the Christian doctrine.

But the Book of Enoch, due to its plot, is NOT compatible with any kind of literal or semi-literal interpretation of the Bible

The fact itself that (some) early Christians considered inspired both Genesis and Enoch shows that these early Christians were NOT young / old creationists. In modern time the only position compatible with considering the Book of Enoch as inspired is Theistic Evolution.

Assyrian · Dec 26, 2008

yeshuasavedme said:
dear gluadys and shernren -and all TE believers who deny the Word of God. Please answer where the Scripture of Truth is to be found in a man-made list of "canon"?

While you are trying to figure out a way to deny that one, also tell me where the Scripture is written that Jesus quotes in Jhn 7:38 "He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water".
You won't find it for searching in a man made list. So why is that Scripture not to be found in a man-made list of "canon"?

Who says all the books have been given to us? Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. And how do you know these books mentioned in inspired apocalyptic literature like Daniel and Revelation are even literal books rather than figures?

yeshuasavedme said:
And while you're trying to remain unbelievers [of absolute truth written by the inspiration of Holy Spirit and denied by you, as truth] in the face of the clear Word of God on those; tell me where Jesus read the Wisdom of God that He quotes from, here:

Luk 11:49 Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and [some] of them they shall slay and persecute: That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;

And then Jesus adds: Luk 11:51 From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.

So why is Abel included in the list of prophets whose blood will be required of "this generation" -and what did Abel prophesy? Why is that "wisdom of God" not to be found written in a man made list of canon?
Do you even have a clue who He is speaking to when He says "this generation" in that passage?

Firstly, I do not think Jesus meant that literally. The Pharisees were no more responsible for the death of Abel that they were for breaking kosher by swallowing camels. In talking of the deaths from Abel to Zechariah, Jesus is giving the the A-Z of biblical martyrs, in other words God is going to throw the book at them. Now of course, A-Z comes from our English alphabet, it doesn't work in Hebrew or Greek. Where Abel to Zechariah do cover the OT scriptures is in the Jewish canon of scripture, where Genesis with the murder of Abel comes at the beginning ot the Torah, while the last book of the Jewish canon was 1&2 Chronicles with the murder of Zechariah in 2Chron 24. Sounds like Jesus was happy to go along with the man made Jewish canon.

If you want a prophecy Abel gave, how about the one he was murdered for? Cain's sacrifice was not accepted by God, but Abel's sacrifice of the firstlings of his flocks. Do you think there could be a prophetic meaning to Abel sacrificing his lambs, the first time such a sacrifice is mentioned in scripture?

yeshuasavedme said:
While you are trying to figure out a way to deny that one, also tell me where the Scripture is written that Jesus quotes in Jhn 7:38 "He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water".
You won't find it for searching in a man made list. So why is that Scripture not to be found in a man-made list of "canon"?

While we are on the subject I suggest you check what you have flowing out from your belly, is it living waters, or anger and frustration at your fellow believers?

So where does it come from? How about Isaiah 58:11 And the LORD will guide you continually and satisfy your desire in scorched places and make your bones strong; and you shall be like a watered garden, like a spring of water, whose waters do not fail. Jesus expands its meaning a bit, though it is clear from Isaiah that it is not talking about people becoming literal springs with real water flowing out of them. And where is the water to flow from? Their nose? Their ears? It is pretty clear Jesus is not talking about literal belly or heart here either, these living waters bubble up from deep with in us.

yeshuasavedme · Dec 26, 2008

Assyrian said:
Who says all the books have been given to us? Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. And how do you know these books mentioned in inspired apocalyptic literature like Daniel and Revelation are even literal books rather than figures?
...

I'll get back to the rest of your post later, but meantime, on the Book of Life:
Who says all the books have been given to us? Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. And how do you know these books mentioned in inspired apocalyptic literature like Daniel and Revelation are even literal books rather than figures?
The Book of Life is first mentioned in 1 Enoch, not in Revelation. It is the book in which the names of all born in Adam are written before the foundation of the world and from which book a name can be blotted out, while they have their being intact, but never written in again. To be written in the Book of Life makes one a subject for redemption in the name of the New Man -the Kinsman/Redeemer. No baby who dies before doing good or evil with understanding can be blotted out of that book and they belong to the Redeemer who has ransomed them by His blood, for instance. Every soul who lives in their body until they come to understanding of good and evil, and who does not choose to seek the Light that lights every soul born into the world, but continuously rejects that Light, will at some point known to God get their names blotted out of that Book of Life.

That Book in which the names of all the seed who would ever be born in Adam are pre-written and pre-designed, and in which their body parts including even the number of hairs on the head, and their times and seasons [boundaries of their years] are all written is also mentioned by Moses, David, Jesus, and Paul:

Exd 32:32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.
Psa 69:28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living [the Book of Life],
and not be written with the righteous.

Psa 139:16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all [my members] were written, [which] in continuance were fashioned, when [as yet there was] none of them.
Mat 10:30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.

Luk 10:20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

Act 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein,
Act 17:26 hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

Phl 4:3 And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and [with] other my fellowlabourers, whose names [are] in the book of life.

The only names not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world are the tares, not seed of Adam, apparently, but seed sown by the enemy, when the sons of God married the daughters of Adam and had giants -the nephillim- by them; both before the flood and after the flood, and apparently, again, at the end of the times, before Jesus returns. -The demons are disembodied giants, nephillim, who roam earth until they are gathered by the angels and burned at the return of Jesus; as Enoch foretold, in chapters 14-15.

Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Mal 3:16 Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard [it], and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name.

I have no time to do a search and paste job for you to also see that the book of deeds of good and evil are first reported by Enoch to be written, and that they are mentioned in the OT as the books each soul is judged from, at the judgment seat of Christ or at the great white throne [depending on which resurrection they attain to; that of the just or the unjust. You can do your own search on the book of deeds of good and evil in the OT and in Enoch and in the ancient Jewish doctrines -if you wanted to.

1 Enoch [Chapter 108]
1 Another book which Enoch wrote for his son Methuselah and for those who will come after him, 2 and keep the law in the last days. Ye who have done good shall wait for those days till an end is made of those who work evil; and an end of the might of the transgressors. And wait ye indeed till sin has passed away, for their names shall be blotted out of the book of life and out of the holy books, and their seed shall be destroyed for ever, and their spirits shall be slain, and they shall cry and make lamentation in a place that is a chaotic wilderness, and in the fire shall they burn; for there is no earth there. And I saw there something like an invisible cloud; for by reason of its depth I could not look over, and I saw a flame of fire blazing brightly, and things like shining 5 mountains circling and sweeping to and fro. And I asked one of the holy angels who was with me and said unto him: ' What is this shining thing? for it is not a heaven but only the flame of a blazing 6 fire, and the voice of weeping and crying and lamentation and strong pain.' And he said unto me: ' This place which thou seest-here are cast the spirits of sinners and blasphemers, and of those who work wickedness, and of those who pervert everything that the Lord hath spoken through the mouth 7 of the prophets-(even) the things that shall be. For some of them are written and inscribed above in the heaven, in order that the angels may read them and know that which shall befall the sinners, and the spirits of the humble, and of those who have afflicted their bodies, and been recompensed 8 by God; and of those who have been put to shame by wicked men: Who love God and loved neither gold nor silver nor any of the good things which are in the world, but gave over their bodies to torture. Who, since they came into being, longed not after earthly food, but regarded everything as a passing breath, and lived accordingly, and the Lord tried them much, and their spirits were 10 found pure so that they should bless His name. And all the blessings destined for them I have recounted in the books. And he hath assigned them their recompense, because they have been found to be such as loved heaven more than their life in the world, and though they were trodden under foot of wicked men, and experienced abuse and reviling from them and were put to shame, 11 yet they blessed Me. And now I will summon the spirits of the good who belong to the generation of light, and I will transform those who were born in darkness, who in the flesh were not recompensed 12 with such honour as their faithfulness deserved. And I will bring forth in shining light those who 13 have loved My holy name, and I will seat each on the throne of his honour. And they shall be resplendent for times without number; for righteousness is the judgement of God; for to the faithful 14 He will give faithfulness in the habitation of upright paths. And they shall see those who were , 15 born in darkness led into darkness, while the righteous shall be resplendent. And the sinners shall cry aloud and see them resplendent, and they indeed will go where days and seasons are prescribed for them.'

Assyrian · Dec 26, 2008

The Book of Life is first mentioned in 1 Enoch, not in Revelation...

Exd 32:32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.
Psa 69:28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living [the Book of Life],
and not be written with the righteous.

Click to expand...

I think you answer your own point here. The book of life predates both Revelation and your extra canonical Jewish apocalypse the book of Enoch, going back to the Psalms of David and before him Moses. But that is irrelevant. My point about books in Jewish apocalyptic literature remains, if you recognise that there are books in Jewish apocalyptic literature, including the book of life, how do you know the book referred to in Daniel isn't one of these?

yeshuasavedme · Dec 26, 2008

Assyrian said:
I think you answer your own point here. The book of life predates both Revelation and your extra canonical Jewish apocalypse the book of Enoch, going back to the Psalms of David and before him Moses. But that is irrelevant. My point about books in Jewish apocalyptic literature remains, if you recognise that there are books in Jewish apocalyptic literature, including the book of life, how do you know the book referred to in Daniel isn't one of these?

The Book of Life has the names and times and information for the individual seed of Adam that were individually planned by the Creator to come forth in their times -in Adam. The boundaries of their days and the information code for their flesh is in that book, as it is defined by the Scriptures I listed.
The Book of Life will not be opened until the last resurrection which is at the end of the thousand year reign.

The book of deeds is an individual and personal record written for each soul who is listed/named in the Book of Life. Those who miss the mark in Adam's fall have the opportunity in the Name of the New Man -who redeemed Adam- to perform those deeds written for them to do, for which they get rewards.

The good deeds one does are blotted out if they themselves are evil and never repent. But the evil deeds they do in the name of the old man, Adam, are all written each and every day. Every single thing that a person does, thinks, or says is written down each day, and they bear the rewards for the evil they do. some men carry sin as with a cartrope, to the judgment.

Those things are stated about the book of deeds of good and evil in the book of Enoch, and the OT.
You could discover these things for yourself -if you had half a desire to seek what God has to say about these things.

But the Scripture of Truth has written in it that information which the angel expounded/made known to Daniel and which comprises the 11th and 12th chapters of Daniel.
All I am asking you is to tell me where the Scripture of Truth is written that has in it those things that the angel read and expounded/made known to Daniel, which are in Daniel 11 and 12. And I am asking you and the others who deny the Creation in six literal days and who try to hide behind a man-made list of canon and who have no historical understanding of what was read and used by the early Church long before an artificial canon list was made by some men in one place but not by all men in all places, who called themselves Christians, to tell me where the things I listed in that post above are to be found.
Let's talk about what "canon" Jesus, His womb brothers, His Apostles, Moses and the prophets all read and used. What did Job, a non-Jew, and his friends read and believe about God's Word. Where did they read the things that they speak of about the Words of God and of His laws? -

Where is that Scripture of Truth to be found and to be read which the angel read and expounded/made known to Daniel those things, from? Why is that Scripture of Truth not included in the man-made list of canon that some of you claim to adhere to -but you even deny the Holy Spirit's inspiration of most of it anyway that you do claim as your own list, and you read modern men's words instead, and believe them as infallible, instead of God's Truth, anyway.

a_ntv · Dec 26, 2008

Assyrian said:
I think you answer your own point here. The book of life predates both Revelation and your extra canonical Jewish apocalypse the book of Enoch, going back to the Psalms of David and before him Moses. But that is irrelevant. My point about books in Jewish apocalyptic literature remains, if you recognise that there are books in Jewish apocalyptic literature, including the book of life, how do you know the book referred to in Daniel isn't one of these?

The book of life that yeshuasavedme was referring to is a fictional text. These "celestial" book has the meaning to remember us that any our act is registered in heaven, and will be used for the judgment of us.
The "celestial" book can be seen by Enoch only because Enoch ascended to the heaven, but are not though to be used on the earth.

More, yeshuasavedme quoted from chapter 108 of 1 Enoch that for sure is a later addition (the conclusion), probably to be dated after the 1 century AD.

The original position of the book of Enoch about the salvation arrives to a position similar to the double-predestination (see ad instance chapter 93: Concerning the children of righteousness and concerning the elect of the world..), almost the contrary of the later (Christian) conclusion of chapter 108.

Assyrian · Dec 26, 2008

yeshuasavedme said:
The Book of Life has the names and times and information for the individual seed of Adam that were individually planned by the Creator to come forth in their times -in Adam. The boundaries of their days and the information code for their flesh is in that book, as it is defined by the Scriptures I listed.
The Book of Life will not be opened until the last resurrection which is at the end of the thousand year reign.

The book of deeds is an individual and personal record written for each soul who is listed/named in the Book of Life. Those who miss the mark in Adam's fall have the opportunity in the Name of the New Man -who redeemed Adam- to perform those deeds written for them to do, for which they get rewards.

The good deeds one does are blotted out if they themselves are evil and never repent. But the evil deeds they do in the name of the old man, Adam, are all written each and every day. Every single thing that a person does, thinks, or says is written down each day, and they bear the rewards for the evil they do. some men carry sin as with a cartrope, to the judgment.

Those things are stated about the book of deeds of good and evil in the book of Enoch, and the OT.
You could discover these things for yourself -if you had half a desire to seek what God has to say about these things.

But the Scripture of Truth has written in it that information which the angel expounded/made known to Daniel and which comprises the 11th and 12th chapters of Daniel.
All I am asking you is to tell me where the Scripture of Truth is written that has in it those things that the angel read and expounded/made known to Daniel, which are in Daniel 11 and 12. And I am asking you and the others who deny the Creation in six literal days and who try to hide behind a man-made list of canon and who have no historical understanding of what was read and used by the early Church long before an artificial canon list was made by some men in one place but not by all men in all places, who called themselves Christians, to tell me where the things I listed in that post above are to be found.
Let's talk about what "canon" Jesus, His womb brothers, His Apostles, Moses and the prophets all read and used. What did Job, a non-Jew, and his friends read and believe about God's Word. Where did they read the things that they speak of about the Words of God and of His laws? -

Where is that Scripture of Truth to be found and to be read which the angel read and expounded/made known to Daniel those things, from? Why is that Scripture of Truth not included in the man-made list of canon that some of you claim to adhere to -but you even deny the Holy Spirit's inspiration of most of it anyway that you do claim as your own list, and you read modern men's words instead, and believe them as infallible, instead of God's Truth, anyway.

You still haven't addressed my point. What makes you think the book mentioned in Daniels apocalyptic vision of the angel isn't either in heaven along with the book of life and other such scrolls, and/or is figurative. If the book is in heaven and/or figurative, why should it be in any human canon?

yeshuasavedme · Dec 26, 2008

a_ntv said:
In Enoch there is no trace of the Fall of Adam and Eve. (the "original sin" is tied to a completely different event)...
In Enoch there is no trace of the Law...
The plot of the Book of Enoch is NOT compatible with the Genesis narrative....

But the Book of Enoch, due to its plot, is NOT compatible with any kind of literal or semi-literal interpretation of the Bible

I really think you must not have read 1 Enoch at all, to say that those things which are proven untrue by reading Enoch itself.
The book of 1 Enoch is the only place to find the foundational doctrines for almost all doctrine of the things that were, are, and will be.
Taught foundationally, only in Enoch: the doctrine of Christ as the Son of Man who was from the beginning hidden; who was with God and who was God, and who was to come, to die, make an end of sin, rise, ascend, redeem the lost, and regenerate the heavens and the earth in His name, uniting them in Him, to the Unseen Father, taught plainly.
Taught foundationally, only in Enoch: the doctrine of the lake of fire as the blackness of darkness forever, called chaos, and prepared for the devil and his angels -and for all who take the part of the devil against God who will be cast there at the time of their judgments.
Taught foundationally, only in Enoch: the doctrine of Sheol below earth as the place where the departed souls of Adam's seed were held, some in rest and peace awaiting the day of atonement and release from there, and some in flames and torment, waiting the day of their resurrection and judgment at the end of this creation.
Taught foundationally, only in Enoch: is the doctrine of the fall of the Watchers; why they are chained and what their doom is.
Taught foundationally, only in Enoch is the doctrine of demons: What they are, where they are from, what their doom is, and when and who will execute it; why they roam earth till then, disembodied, and what they do while they roam earth.
Taught foundationally, only in Enoch: the archangels; their names and their duties.
Taught foundationally, only in Enoch: what it is like in the created temple in the created heavens in which is the created throne of God on which sits the Great Glory who is God the Word; seen by Enoch and in whom was the Hidden Son of Man who was to come, who was seen by Enoch as an alter ego =another same self, of the Great Glory on His throne.
Taught foundationally, only in Enoch: the things John was shown in Revelation about that time of the great tribulation and what will happen and why, and the coming of the Son of Man to put down all authority and rule and to being in His reign of Peace on this earth before it is dissolved and regenerated with the heavens, for the New Beginning.
Taught foundationally, only in Enoch: the coming of the Son of Man on His throne of Glory, to whom every knee in heaven and in earth will bow and every tongue will confess as LORD, at the time of His coming and judgment -but for the wicked, it will be too late, and they will long for and beg for time to worship Him in His glory and confess Him, before descending forever into the blackness of darkness away from His face with no hope of ever seeing it again, and into that darkness from which there will be no escape and where they will remain undying worms forever. -That is one of the saddest parts of Enoch's revelation, to realize the finality of those who deny Him now, but who see Him in His glory and beauty and long to worship Him then; yet the will never, ever, ever, be able to escape the prison house prepared for the devil and his angels, which they take their own part in forever, for their rejection of the Light that lights every man that comes into the world.

Enoch [Chapter 32]
1 And after these fragrant odours, as I looked towards the north over the mountains I saw seven mountains full of choice nard and fragrant trees and cinnamon and pepper. 2 And thence I went over the summits of all these mountains, far towards the east of the earth, and passed above the Erythraean sea and went far from it, and passed over the angel Zotiel. And I came to the Garden of Righteousness, 3 I and from afar off trees more numerous than I these trees and great-two trees there, very great, beautiful, and glorious, and magnificent, and the tree of knowledge, whose holy fruit they eat and know great wisdom. 4 That tree is in height like the fir, and its leaves are like (those of) the Carob tree: and its fruit 5 is like the clusters of the vine, very beautiful: and the fragrance of the tree penetrates afar. Then 6 I said: 'How beautiful is the tree, and how attractive is its look!' Then Raphael the holy angel, who was with me, answered me and said: 'This is the tree of wisdom, of which thy father old (in years) and thy aged mother, who were before thee, have eaten, and they learnt wisdom and their eyes were opened, and they knew that they were naked and they were driven out of the garden.'

...[Chapter 92]
1 The book written by Enoch-[Enoch indeed wrote this complete doctrine of wisdom, (which is) praised of all men and a judge of all the earth] for all my children who shall dwell on the earth. And for the future generations who shall observe uprightness and peace.
2 Let not your spirit be troubled on account of the times;
For the Holy and Great One has appointed days for all things.
3 And the righteous one shall arise from sleep,
[Shall arise] and walk in the paths of righteousness,
And all his path and conversation shall be in eternal goodness and grace.
4 He will be gracious to the righteous and give him eternal uprightness,
And He will give him power so that he shall be (endowed) with goodness and righteousness.
And he shall walk in eternal light.
5 And sin shall perish in darkness for ever,
And shall no more be seen from that day for evermore.
[Chapter 91]
1 And now, my son Methuselah, call to me all thy brothers
And gather together to me all the sons of thy mother;
For the word calls me,
And the spirit is poured out upon me,
That I may show you everything
That shall befall you for ever.'
2 And there upon Methuselah went and summoned to him all his brothers and assembled his relatives.
3 And he spake unto all the children of righteousness and said:
'Hear, ye sons of Enoch, all the words of your father,
And hearken aright to the voice of my mouth;
For I exhort you and say unto you, beloved:
4 Love uprightness and walk therein.
And draw not nigh to uprightness with a double heart,
And associate not with those of a double heart,
But walk in righteousness, my sons.
And it shall guide you on good paths,
And righteousness shall be your companion.
5 For I know that violence must increase on the earth,
And a great chastisement be executed on the earth,
And all unrighteousness come to an end:
Yea, it shall be cut off from its roots,
And its whole structure be destroyed.
6 And unrighteousness shall again be consummated on the earth,
And all the deeds of unrighteousness and of violence
And transgression shall prevail in a twofold degree.
7 And when sin and unrighteousness and blasphemy
And violence in all kinds of deeds increase,
And apostasy and transgression and uncleanness increase,
A great chastisement shall come from heaven upon all these,
And the holy Lord will come forth with wrath and chastisement
To execute judgement on earth.
8 In those days violence shall be cut off from its roots,
And the roots of unrighteousness together with deceit,
And they shall be destroyed from under heaven.
9 And all the idols of the heathen shall be abandoned,
And the temples burned with fire,
And they shall remove them from the whole earth,
And they (i.e. the heathen) shall be cast into the judgement of fire,
And shall perish in wrath and in grievous judgement for ever.
10 And the righteous shall arise from their sleep,
And wisdom shall arise and be given unto them.
[And after that the roots of unrighteousness shall be cut off, and the sinners shall be destroyed by the sword . . . shall be cut off from the blasphemers in every place, and those who plan violence and those who commit blasphemy shall perish by the sword.]
18 And now I tell you, my sons, and show you
The paths of righteousness and the paths of violence.
Yea, I will show them to you again
That ye may know what will come to pass.
19 And now, hearken unto me, my sons,
And walk in the paths of righteousness,
And walk not in the paths of violence;
For all who walk in the paths of unrighteousness shall perish for ever.'
[Chapter 93]
1,2 And after that Enoch both gave and began to recount from the books. And Enoch said:
' Concerning the children of righteousness and concerning the elect of the world,
And concerning the plant of uprightness, I will speak these things,
Yea, I Enoch will declare (them) unto you, my sons:
According to that which appeared to me in the heavenly vision,
And which I have known through the word of the holy angels,
And have learnt from the heavenly tablets.'
3 And Enoch began to recount from the books and said:
' I was born the seventh in the first week,
...

yeshuasavedme · Dec 26, 2008

Mallon said:
That some of the newcomers to this forum claim to have both (a) infallible insight into God's original intended meaning of the Scriptures and (b) the ability to know a person's heart really amazes me. Almost as though they think they are God themselves. It's quite revealing, really.

I've been here on CF almost two years longer than you have, which is almost 50% longer than you.
And you are speaking falsely about what I have said, anyway.

yeshuasavedme · Dec 26, 2008

Assyrian said:
You still haven't addressed my point. What makes you think the book mentioned in Daniels apocalyptic vision of the angel isn't either in heaven along with the book of life and other such scrolls, and/or is figurative. If the book is in heaven and/or figurative, why should it be in any human canon?

You are not addressing my points at all, are you?
What did Jesus read as inspired Scripture? Where is it written that the angels in heaven do not marry? It is written. Jesus said so; and it is written in the book Jesus called Scripture; but it is not written in a man-made list of canon.
The man-made list rejected the inspired Truth that Jesus read and expounded upon, in His ministry. Why did certain men -hundreds of years after Jesus established His Church- decide to reject the Scriptures that Jesus read? Where is the Scripture written that they rejected, which says "He that believeth in Me out of His belly [inmost being] will flow rivers of living water"?
Where is the Wisdom of God recorded which Jesus read and quoted from that, says "I will send them Apostles and prophets and some of them they will torture and kill"? Why did some men hundreds of years after Jesus established His Church not include the "Wisdom of God" in their list of "canon".
-And why should any Believer in Jesus Christ reject what Jesus accepted and quoted as Scripture, and as "the Wisdom of God?"
Why did Daniel know about the Scripture of Truth? Why did Daniel know about the Watchers? What did Daniel read that made him so aware of those things? Why did some men reject what Daniel, Jesus, Moses, Isaiah, David, and all the NT authors accept as "inspired"?

yeshuasavedme · Dec 26, 2008

a_ntv said:
The book of life that yeshuasavedme was referring to is a fictional text. These "celestial" book has the meaning to remember us that any our act is registered in heaven, and will be used for the judgment of us.
The "celestial" book can be seen by Enoch only because Enoch ascended to the heaven, but are not though to be used on the earth.

More, yeshuasavedme quoted from chapter 108 of 1 Enoch that for sure is a later addition (the conclusion), probably to be dated after the 1 century AD.

The original position of the book of Enoch about the salvation arrives to a position similar to the double-predestination (see ad instance chapter 93: Concerning the children of righteousness and concerning the elect of the world..), almost the contrary of the later (Christian) conclusion of chapter 108.

I can make no sense of your post, except that you are denying that 1 Enoch is pre-NT. That is false, as Jesus used it totally in His preaching; and the things in it are those things Jesus expounded upon as truth about Himself and His doctrines.

a_ntv · Dec 27, 2008

I've read it, I've read all the PT Apocrypha, and I've read lot of literature on the: it is a very interesting argument

yeshuasavedme said:
I really think you must not have read 1 Enoch at all, to say that those things which are proven untrue by reading Enoch itself.
The book of 1 Enoch is the only place to find the foundational doctrines for almost all doctrine of the things that were, are, and will be.
Taught foundationally, only in Enoch: the doctrine of Christ as the Son of Man who was from the beginning hidden; who was with God and who was God, and who was to come, to die, make an end of sin, rise, ascend, redeem the lost, and regenerate the heavens and the earth in His name, uniting them in Him, to the Unseen Father, taught plainly.
Taught foundationally, only in Enoch: the doctrine of the lake of fire as the blackness of darkness forever, called chaos, and prepared for the devil and his angels -and for all who take the part of the devil against God who will be cast there at the time of their judgments.
Taught foundationally, only in Enoch: the doctrine of Sheol below earth as the place where the departed souls of Adam's seed were held, some in rest and peace awaiting the day of atonement and release from there, and some in flames and torment, waiting the day of their resurrection and judgment at the end of this creation.
Taught foundationally, only in Enoch: is the doctrine of the fall of the Watchers; why they are chained and what their doom is.
Taught foundationally, only in Enoch is the doctrine of demons: What they are, where they are from, what their doom is, and when and who will execute it; why they roam earth till then, disembodied, and what they do while they roam earth.
Taught foundationally, only in Enoch: the archangels; their names and their duties.
Taught foundationally, only in Enoch: what it is like in the created temple in the created heavens in which is the created throne of God on which sits the Great Glory who is God the Word; seen by Enoch and in whom was the Hidden Son of Man who was to come, who was seen by Enoch as an alter ego =another same self, of the Great Glory on His throne.
Taught foundationally, only in Enoch: the things John was shown in Revelation about that time of the great tribulation and what will happen and why, and the coming of the Son of Man to put down all authority and rule and to being in His reign of Peace on this earth before it is dissolved and regenerated with the heavens, for the New Beginning.
Taught foundationally, only in Enoch: the coming of the Son of Man on His throne of Glory, to whom every knee in heaven and in earth will bow and every tongue will confess as LORD, at the time of His coming and judgment -but for the wicked, it will be too late, and they will long for and beg for time to worship Him in His glory and confess Him, before descending forever into the blackness of darkness away from His face with no hope of ever seeing it again, and into that darkness from which there will be no escape and where they will remain undying worms forever. -That is one of the saddest parts of Enoch's revelation, to realize the finality of those who deny Him now, but who see Him in His glory and beauty and long to worship Him then; yet the will never, ever, ever, be able to escape the prison house prepared for the devil and his angels, which they take their own part in forever, for their rejection of the Light that lights every man that comes into the world.

You are perfectly right that Christianity took form Enoch (though the essenes) lots of his believes.

For example the angelogy: present in ancient texts as Isiaiah it disappeared in the "othodox" texts, to return into the NT by influence of the enoch traditions.

Anyway the book of Enoch includes so many literal differences with Genesis that it is not compatible -on a literal reading- with Genesis.

It is also not compatible from a doctrinal viewpoint with the rabbinical Judaism (actually it is considered as heretic by Jews): the salvation for the rabbinical Judaism cames from the Law. In Enoch the Law is not even mentioned, but the salvation cames from the "ascension to heaven", for sure the source of the "born again / born from the high" in Jesus predication

yeshuasavedme said:
I can make no sense of your post, except that you are denying that 1 Enoch is pre-NT. That is false, as Jesus used it totally in His preaching; and the things in it are those things Jesus expounded upon as truth about Himself and His doctrines.

1 Enoch is a composed text, assembled, not before the 1 century ad, by a redactor who put together five different texts of the Enoch tradition + a conclusion (chapter 108)

The texts are very different in date, language, history and are named as follow:
-The Book of the Watchers (1 Enoch 1 – 36): can be dated half of III century AD: anyway there are scholars that date it prior than Genesis (read for instance "The Lost Prophet: The Book of Enoch and Its Influence on Christianity" by M. Barker)
-The Book of Parables of Enoch (1 Enoch 37 – 71): this text, the one with the expression "Son of the Man", has not been found in Qumrun and some scholars as Milik date it many century after Christ, most date it the first century AD, some (and I agree with them) date it about the 30-40 BC
-The Astronomical Book (1 Enoch 72 – 82) it is as old as the Book of the Watchers: surely anyway shortened by the last redactor
-The Book of Dream Visions (1 Enoch 83 – 90): dates as the book of Daniel, about the 160 BC
-The Epistle of Enoch (1 Enoch 91 – 107): a composite text of at least three part, dates the early 1 century BC

So it is always very important to understand which chapter of enoch you are reading from: chapter 108, the final redactional conclusion, could be a Christian and for sure it is written no earlier than 1 century AD

Assyrian · Dec 27, 2008

yeshuasavedme said:
You are not addressing my points at all, are you?

Sure I do, however most of your answers involve a long digression into your personal theology or what the book of Enoch says that has nothing to do with the discussion at all.

What did Jesus read as inspired Scripture?

I looked at Jesus' use of the Jewish canon in his reference to all the prophets from Abel (Genesis) to Zechariah (2nd Chronicles the last book in the Jewish canon). I do not know of Jesus referring to any book outside the canon as scripture. While he rejected many of the legalistic traditions of the elders, he did share a common first century Jewish theology with both devout Jews like Mary and Martha and Pharisees.

Where is it written that the angels in heaven do not marry?

We dealt with that.

It is written. Jesus said so; and it is written in the book Jesus called Scripture; but it is not written in a man-made list of canon.

What did Jesus say was written? Read what Jesus said, Mark 12:24 Jesus said to them, "Is this not the reason you are wrong, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God? 25 For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. 26 And as for the dead being raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God spoke to him, saying, 'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? 27 He is not God of the dead, but of the living. You are quite wrong."
Jesus quoted from Exodus 3:6, that is in the Jewish canon.

The man-made list rejected the inspired Truth that Jesus read and expounded upon, in His ministry. Why did certain men -hundreds of years after Jesus established His Church- decide to reject the Scriptures that Jesus read? Where is the Scripture written that they rejected, which says "He that believeth in Me out of His belly [inmost being] will flow rivers of living water"?
Where is the Wisdom of God recorded which Jesus read and quoted from that, says "I will send them Apostles and prophets and some of them they will torture and kill"? Why did some men hundreds of years after Jesus established His Church not include the "Wisdom of God" in their list of "canon".

What make you think "The Wisdom of God" is a book Jesus quoted from? Does Jesus even say it is written in a book? It is not the way Jesus usually quoted scripture, saying 'It is written...' or quoting the prophet by name:
Matt 13:14 Indeed, in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says...
Matt 22:43 He said to them, "How is it then that David, in the Spirit, calls him Lord, saying...
Mar 12:36 David himself, in the Holy Spirit, declared...

If you read the same passage in Matthew, Jesus says it himself in the first person without attributing it to the Wisdom of God.
Matt 23:34 Therefore I send you prophets and wise men and scribes, some of whom you will kill and crucify, and some you will flog in your synagogues and persecute from town to town, 35 so that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of innocent Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar.
But then again, Jesus is the wisdom of God.

-And why should any Believer in Jesus Christ reject what Jesus accepted and quoted as Scripture, and as "the Wisdom of God?"

Where did Jesus quote it as scripture?

Why did Daniel know about the Scripture of Truth?

The angel told him. And you still haven't answered my point.

You still haven't addressed my point. What makes you think the book mentioned in Daniel's apocalyptic vision of the angel isn't either in heaven along with the book of life and other such scrolls, and/or is figurative. If the book is in heaven and/or figurative, why should it be in any human canon?

Why did Daniel know about the Watchers? What did Daniel read that made him so aware of those things?

The angel told him who they were. Dan 4:14 He proclaimed aloud and said thus: 'Chop down the tree... 17 The sentence is by the decree of the watchers... Besides you seem to be assuming the Jews of that time had no theology and only knew what they could quote from scripture. The concept of God ruling the earth through his angelic council, the sons of God, goes way back in scripture. What is interesting here is is the title the angels have, watchers, iyr, is not a Hebrew one but Aramaic or Persian. Of course this is a vision God gave Nebuchadnezzar.

Why did some men reject what Daniel, Jesus, Moses, Isaiah, David, and all the NT authors accept as "inspired"?

Where did Jesus ever quote the book of Enoch as inspired scripture?

Assyrian · Dec 27, 2008

a_ntv said:
You are perfectly right that Christianity took form Enoch (though the essenes) lots of his believes.

My question is, how much is did the NT take from Enoch and how much was simply a shared theology that grew up in the intertestamental period?

If you have read a lot of the apocrypha perhaps you could answer another question I have been wondering about. Did the writers see their works as literal, parable, allegory or pious yarn?

a_ntv · Dec 27, 2008

Assyrian said:
My question is, how much is did the NT take from Enoch and how much was simply a shared theology that grew up in the intertestamental period?

What is sometime called the "Enoch judaism" was a minority current (as well as the sapiential judaism) present during the IV-II century BCE, when the majority judaism was the Sadocite Judaism (the expression of Second Temple).
After the Maccabean facts (about 160-140 BCE) there was a general mix of positions: while the sadducees continued the sadocite judaism, the farisees cames from the sadocite judaism with an enochian influence (see for example the presence of angels in Daniel, or the resurrection of bodies), the essenes were enochians with sadocites influence (see the importance of the Law in Qumran essenes)

So the Book of Enoch (well, the older parts of it) influenced, more (for the essens) or less (for the pharisee), most of the different judaisms in the intertestamental period.
We cannot at all say that in the intertestamental period there was one shared theology: present rabbinical judaism is unitary (it cames from pharisaic judaism), but the intertestamental literature shows many Jewish positions, many different judaisms, very far from the pharisaic judaism.

Because the Christianism almost surely was born from the essenic judaism, the (indirect) influence of 1 Enoch is more strong than in the rabbinical judaism.

Assyrian said:
If you have read a lot of the apocrypha perhaps you could answer another question I have been wondering about. Did the writers see their works as literal, parable, allegory or pious yarn?

Who know?

For sure the semite mind was very different from our: they were not at all interested in the logical congruence of a text.
The message of the text is not given by the plot or by the text itself (they dont use abstract words or ideas), but by the images that arise from the text.

To understand such texts consider them as a list of paintings: each painting is off course considered true, and can teach something: the more you look at it, the more meanings you can get.

Look at different paintings for example of the Crucifixion: the base elements are the same, some elements are added (as the skull at the feet of the cross) for clear allegorical meanings. But to consider secondary details (as the behind panarama) as historical details is a moder-mind wrong habit.
The same for these texts: think to the descriptions of the creation: they are like paintings, not like photos.

yeshuasavedme · Dec 27, 2008

a_ntv said:
I've read it, I've read all the PT Apocrypha, and I've read lot of literature on the: it is a very interesting argument

You are perfectly right that Christianity took form Enoch (though the essenes) lots of his believes.

For example the angelogy: present in ancient texts as Isiaiah it disappeared in the "othodox" texts, to return into the NT by influence of the enoch traditions.

Anyway the book of Enoch includes so many literal differences with Genesis that it is not compatible -on a literal reading- with Genesis.

It is also not compatible from a doctrinal viewpoint with the rabbinical Judaism (actually it is considered as heretic by Jews): the salvation for the rabbinical Judaism cames from the Law. In Enoch the Law is not even mentioned, but the salvation cames from the "ascension to heaven", for sure the source of the "born again / born from the high" in Jesus predication

1 Enoch is a composed text, assembled, not before the 1 century ad, by a redactor who put together five different texts of the Enoch tradition + a conclusion (chapter 108)

The texts are very different in date, language, history and are named as follow:
-The Book of the Watchers (1 Enoch 1 – 36): can be dated half of III century AD: anyway there are scholars that date it prior than Genesis (read for instance "The Lost Prophet: The Book of Enoch and Its Influence on Christianity" by M. Barker)
-The Book of Parables of Enoch (1 Enoch 37 – 71): this text, the one with the expression "Son of the Man", has not been found in Qumrun and some scholars as Milik date it many century after Christ, most date it the first century AD, some (and I agree with them) date it about the 30-40 BC
-The Astronomical Book (1 Enoch 72 – 82) it is as old as the Book of the Watchers: surely anyway shortened by the last redactor
-The Book of Dream Visions (1 Enoch 83 – 90): dates as the book of Daniel, about the 160 BC
-The Epistle of Enoch (1 Enoch 91 – 107): a composite text of at least three part, dates the early 1 century BC

So it is always very important to understand which chapter of enoch you are reading from: chapter 108, the final redactional conclusion, could be a Christian and for sure it is written no earlier than 1 century AD

The materials and the forms of writing that the scribes who copied the ancient books used which were discovered at Qumran caves have been dated to third century B.C. That is the dating only of the writing styles and the carbon dating of the materials used.

Because Jesus' Gospel is based upon the three parables of the son of Man as found intact in the Ethiopian Coptic Church's book of 1 Enoch, then those of course pre-date Jesus' coming in flesh. He directly bases His ministry on the revelation of Himself as reported in 1 Enoch's parables of the Son of Man. He calls Enoch Scripture when He tells the Sadducees that they err not knowing Scripture...that in heaven the angels do not marry -and so forth [1 Enoch 14-15] and He calls one portion of it "the Wisdom of God". He is seen in Enoch as the Son of Man in heaven, and He preaches in His ministry as the Son of Man whom only Enoch saw, in heaven, who was to come, and who is an "alter ego/another same self" of the Great Glory, seen by Enoch on His throne in heaven who was and is "The Oath/Word" of God and the Glory of the Unseen Father.

Only Enoch saw Him in heaven, as the Son of Man, with God, hidden, who was God, and who was to come.
Jhn 6:62 [What] and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
Jhn 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, [even] the Son of man which is in heaven.

Elijah is ascended and Moses is ascended in their natural bodies, and Enoch is ascended in his translated "glorified" body [as the biblical firstborn of the Living Spirit -Christ- who is raised in the dead husband's name -Adam is the dead- so that the inheritance, earth and its heavenly dominion, is not lost].
Moses got his own unregenerated body back, and is with Elijah there, waiting to come to earth to witness Jesus, representing the Law and the Prophets' Testimony to Israel, and be killed and rise regenerated, mid-trib; but Jesus is speaking of ascending as the Son of Man to sit on the throne of Glory made for the Son of Man, which Adam was made for ascending to, as a human being son of God. Adam never ascended because he failed the test of faithfulness and obedience. The second Man passed the test for us and is ascended and is coming on His throne of Glory to judge the earth which He ransomed and shares the inheritance of with His own adopted sons =those born of His Living Spirit, regenerated from the dead Adam spirit.
Enoch saw the throne of the Son of Man as a mountain in earth's heavenly realm [veiled from our sinful flesh eyes], on which the Son of Man will sit, on His throne, ruling earth. -That is what Adam lost and what the second Man -YHWH come in flesh- has ransomed back, "for the Glory".

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