Goodbye

You may be under the misapprehension that these forums are only read by those who post on the threads. This is not true, as with most forums more people read them then participate. Don't think the abusive behaviour and judgmentalism of many of the TSDA's goes un-noticed by those readers. You are in general not going to change the people you argue with on a forum. You will likely effect the readers of the forums however.

The answer for Christians is never going to be leave the ignorant ignorant. Nor is the answer for the SDA forum here going to be found in giving it over to the TSDA's. I would agree with you that there are several TSDA's here who are abusive and that is a shame but giving in to their fondest wishes by leaving is probably not the answer.

What do you mean by TSDA?

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Traditional Seventh-day Adventist

the church? Hmmm, i don't remember my church taking any action against Desmond. The church didn't do anything, it was the people that workd for the company that did it. Anywho i don't know who you are and haven't seen any of your problems on here, but everyone knows by now that I hate generalizations. We have never come in contact so you can't really say that we are all the same. Based solely on this one post by you I can see that they are not the only guilty party.

I am not saying you are to blame, i know how people are not just in the SDA section but on every forum on the internet. You will find people in your own life that will talk all this smack to you face to face. best thing to do is avoid any further drama, by just ignoring the person (literally) and you will find a few people that aren't into this whole drama stuff, but do your part and respect all of us and things should go well.

NightEternal, as I probably identify myself as a progressive, I read your post with interest. However I don't think that I agree with you on this one. I think it is a great idea to want to reform the church, but you can't just come in and be argumentative about hot topic issues. As soon as you bring up a controversial issue such as Des and the IJ in such an arrogant and argumentative way, most people will see flashing red lights and you will never have any chance at a meaningful diologue.

I disagree on many issues that have been debated on this forum, but I don't see any merit in making statements and starting arguments that will only lead to emotional debate. You can't attack the beliefs of people without getting them worked up.

I just think that some tact can go a long way, and if you approach it in an open and non-confronting way, people will listen more and you will be able to discuss more.

DrStupid_Ben said:

NightEternal, as I probably identify myself as a progressive, I read your post with interest. However I don't think that I agree with you on this one. I think it is a great idea to want to reform the church, but you can't just come in and be argumentative about hot topic issues. As soon as you bring up a controversial issue such as Des and the IJ in such an arrogant and argumentative way, most people will see flashing red lights and you will never have any chance at a meaningful diologue.

I disagree on many issues that have been debated on this forum, but I don't see any merit in making statements and starting arguments that will only lead to emotional debate. You can't attack the beliefs of people without getting them worked up.

I just think that some tact can go a long way, and if you approach it in an open and non-confronting way, people will listen more and you will be able to discuss more.

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You are correct in your assessment, a little tact, a little honest discussion, something to give food for thought would have given a chance for everyone to be enlightened or at least listen, instead of feeling like Ghengis Khan had come into the village........

I dont see where he ever engaged anyone in a uplifting discussion, just outlandish diatribe and anger........

We must all start first with love for God and our fellowman and let the Holy Spirit do its work and from there I think we will find our way to the path that Jesus Christ has prepared for us to His Kingdom..

I'd just like to say this one thing then drop it. I have heard the term traditional adventists thrown around here and on the carm discussion board. I think what it boils down to is conservative and liberal views of the Bible and what Seventh-day-Adventism is all about. I have some friends in a neighboring church who are so liberal they not only eat meat but they eat pork and unclean sea food as well. They watch secular programs on T.V. on the Sabbath and go out dancing and drink a few beers occasionally. I can't sit in judgement of these folks because I used to do the same or worse when I was out in the world . However, because of this new righteousness by faith idea that completely discounts behavior in christianity they feel they can do this and still be saved in the end.

Personally, I hope they are right but I just know for me and my relationship with the Lord I couldn't do those things. I am not saying my good works will save me only Christ can do that. However, after I was saved I changed so much some of my friends could hardly recognize me a few years later. So to me our outward actions reflect our inward relationship with our creator.

Once you start down that slippery slope things just get worse and worse. So if following the Bible and the will of God makes me a traditional adventist then so be it, I'll gladly bare the title and carry the banner supporting traditionalism.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

Jimlarmore said:

I'd just like to say this one thing then drop it. I have heard the term traditional adventists thrown around here and on the carm discussion board. I think what it boils down to is conservative and liberal views of the Bible and what Seventh-day-Adventism is all about. I have some friends in a neighboring church who are so liberal they not only eat meat but they eat pork and unclean sea food as well. They watch secular programs on T.V. on the Sabbath and go out dancing and drink a few beers occasionally. I can't sit in judgement of these folks because I used to do the same or worse when I was out in the world . However, because of this new righteousness by faith idea that completely discounts behavior in christianity they feel they can do this and still be saved in the end.

Personally, I hope they are right but I just know for me and my relationship with the Lord I couldn't do those things. I am not saying my good works will save me only Christ can do that. However, after I was saved I changed so much some of my friends could hardly recognize me a few years later. So to me our outward actions reflect our inward relationship with our creator.

Once you start down that slippery slope things just get worse and worse. So if following the Bible and the will of God makes me a traditional adventist then so be it, I'll gladly bare the title and carry the banner supporting traditionalism.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

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Jim,

You hit the nail on the head and its square on the target, everyone that I came across with this term 'traditional adventists' vs 'insert name here' is so they can give an excuse for some type of sin that rules their life and they dont want to give up. The final battle in the end will be over lawlessness, and its ugly head is just begining to show itself and many will find they can't hold on to iniquity and declare themselves sinless, and at the same time prepared for the kingdom. The time has come to choose just like Mt Carmel, and you cannot worship God and Baal both, only one is true and leads to eternal life, the other to eternal death......

A brother in Christ
Red

reddogs said:

Jim,

You hit the nail on the head and its square on the target, everyone that I came across with this term 'traditional adventists' vs 'insert name here' is so they can give an excuse for some type of sin that rules their life and they dont want to give up. The final battle in the end will be over lawlessness, and its ugly head is just begining to show itself and many will find they can't hold on to iniquity and declare themselves sinless, and at the same time prepared for the kingdom. The time has come to choose just like Mt Carmel, and you cannot worship God and Baal both, only one is true and leads to eternal life, the other to eternal death......

A brother in Christ
Red

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I don't think its merely an issue of people wanting to hold on to some sin that the so-called TSDAs want them to give up. I believe many of these people who use such terms to identify others do so because they've been abused by someone who is identified as belonging to a certain type of group of people who refuse to allow anyone to think for himself, thus causing babes in Christ to grow to become retaliatory and hateful. Hence being a cyclic stumbling block which creates more stumbling blocks. For some it happens fast. For others it may take years before it takes its consummate toll on the spirit.

What it really comes down to is that these people want to be heard; yet, no one seems to care enough to listen to them, or make them feel like they belong. At least that is how they perceive it anyway. So they become outraged, and eventually end up hating the very thing that they once loved and embraced. Soon they leave the church, and then they lose hope as they begin to believe that even God doesn't love them. This has been my experience.

This is not to say they are wrong for disagreeing with certain ideas; rather, it is to say that they've become so embittered with such ideas that they go about dealing with them in the wrong way. Many just simply give up, while others become divisive and seek to create conflict within the church by putting people into groups, thus making enemies out of God's people. This is nothing new of course, even Paul dealt with this within the church at Corinth.

It has always been Satan's plot to divide and conquer. That is how he operates.

I know of one SDA Forum that is so Traditional and Conservative that even the very mention of EGW/SOP in a negative manner will not be tolerated.

In fact they only have a few members that read and even fewer post there.

If it was not for a few Mods. making posts it would be dead.

But the Admin. keeps on going as though all is OK.

At least here we can say what we think without being kicked off.

If a person says they do not believe in EGW/SOP or the IJ they are still allowed to be members and posts here.

woobadooba said:

This is not to say they are wrong for disagreeing with certain ideas; rather, it is to say that they've become so embittered with such ideas that they go about dealing with them in the wrong way. Many just simply give up, while others become divisive and seek to create conflict within the church by putting people into groups, thus making enemies out of God's people. This is nothing new of course, even Paul dealt with this within the church at Corinth.

It has always been Satan's plot to divide and conquer. That is how he operates.

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I think you are right to a great extent on this. When I was over on Carm a SDA pastor ( Kevin Morgan ) told me that many of the ex-adventists on that forum had left the church out of frustration because of the works based mentality some of our folks bring to our church. They just got tired of fighting in their own power to do it all right in God's eyes. This is a major problem in our church family world wide and if we don't address this issue things will get much worse. I think the bottom line is that all of us struggle with the sinful nature we all inherit and will until the Lord returns. It's so easy to slip and fall. Additionally, let's face it some aspects of sin is just fun and pleasurable, and it's easy to go back to them if we're not focussed on Christ.

The work of sanctification the Holy Spirit wants to perform in our lives on the other hand takes discipline on our part and a commensal work between us and the Holy Spirit. Life style changes are nearly impossible without the power of Christ in our lives. We have to submit our wills daily for this to happen and seek the Lord constantly. It's easy to be saved ( justified ) but the actual work of sanctification is a different matter indeed. Sanctification is where salvation's rubber meets the road so to speak. Many fall short for a lot of years, then on top of all of that they get scolded or worse by some in our self righteous church family to compound the problem which can then drive them away. It's easy to see why so many fall back onto the idea of once saved always saved.

None of us will ever be good enough to be saved on our own no matter how well we keep the Sabbath or observe good health principles. Without Christ all of that is useless for us in the end. Christ accepts us as we are now and if we allow Him to daily control our lives He can change us by His power to do those things the right way. It's not mine or anyone else's place to sit back and judge someone for the way they are dealing with their struggles in life. We can point out what the Bible says is unacceptable in God's eyes , i.e. open sin, and then let the Holy Spirit work to effect changes from there.

The bottom line is satan will do all he can to draw us away from Christ. This new idea of righteousness by faith that provides for a license to sin because it doesn't matter what we do is a deadly deception that he has authored lately. The Bible said in the last days that if were possible even the very elect would be deceived and this seems to me to be a good candidate to do that.

God Bless you all,

Jim Larmore

You hit the nail on the head and its square on the target, everyone that I came across with this term 'traditional adventists' vs 'insert name here' is so they can give an excuse for some type of sin that rules their life and they dont want to give up.

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One of the problems we see here is that there are people with an emotional response trying to deal with people who deal with a theological and Ecclesiological position. In other words for at least the last 20 years there has been a definition of "Traditional Adventist". It is a label used within and without the Adventist church to help identify people's theological positions.

Now due to the emotional and often irrational perspective we see people say there are people who merely call people names like "traditional Adventist" because they want to live in sin. It does not make sense in any context it comes out as an irrational if you don't believe like we do you are rejecting God and purposefully living a lawless life.

You are left with a choice either continue to pat each other on the back and continue with emotional defensive denial. Or you can realize there are legitimate terms and labels which have real meaning to Adventists and others and use that language in intelligent communication.

See this from the Christian Research Journal from 1988:

http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/cri/cri-jrnl/web/crj0005b.html

RC_NewProtestants said:

One of the problems we see here is that there are people with an emotional response trying to deal with people who deal with a theological and Ecclesiological position. In other words for at least the last 20 years there has been a definition of "Traditional Adventist". It is a label used within and without the Adventist church to help identify people's theological positions.

Now due to the emotional and often irrational perspective we see people say there are people who merely call people names like "traditional Adventist" because they want to live in sin. It does not make sense in any context it comes out as an irrational if you don't believe like we do you are rejecting God and purposefully living a lawless life.

You are left with a choice either continue to pat each other on the back and continue with emotional defensive denial. Or you can realize there are legitimate terms and labels which have real meaning to Adventists and others and use that language in intelligent communication.

Se this from the Christian Research Journal from 1988:

http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/cri/cri-jrnl/web/crj0005b.html

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Very funny RC....., people are emotional (especially latins) and most intellectuals dont grasp that (backhanded compliment)...

But to be serious, knowing what we know, how can we bring everyone together theologically and spiritually (and emotionally) so that we stop this evil that is dividing us?

But to be serious, knowing what we know, how can we bring everyone together theologically and spiritually (and emotionally) so that we stop this evil that is dividing us?

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It might be best to start with your first assumption about knowing what you know. What you say you know may not be true in which case standing up for something as truth which is not truth would but you on the side of evil whether you know it or not. the evil dividing us may be of your own invention. So we need to objectively examine information to decide if what we say we know is indeed true.

I was not trying to be funny above. It is an emotionalism that seeks to define other people as evil. Would it not be better to expect that they like you are searching for truth and understanding. why is it so hard for Christians to give the benefit of the doubt to other Christians instead of resorting to allegations against other Christians. At least wait until you have some evidence of their evil to call them evil rather then pleading to your own understanding of "I know what I know".

reddogs said:

Very funny RC....., people are emotional (especially latins) and most intellectuals dont grasp that (backhanded compliment)...

But to be serious, knowing what we know, how can we bring everyone together theologically and spiritually (and emotionally) so that we stop this evil that is dividing us?

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Join the ecumenical movement, put down the doctrinal differences and worship God in love.

Well, they are going that way anyway.

RC_NewProtestants;34263774]It might be best to start with your first assumption about knowing what you know. What you say you know may not be true in which case standing up for something as truth which is not truth would but you on the side of evil whether you know it or not. the evil dividing us may be of your own invention. So we need to objectively examine information to decide if what we say we know is indeed true.

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A traditional vs. liberal outlook. in my experience, is not based on doctrine. Most of the time they both believe the same doctrinally. The liberal outlook uses the phrase "salvation issue" to determine what is sin and what isn't. Some can justify drinking or watching TV on the sabbath by saying that God really doesn't care or its not a salvation issue. Those are just examples and there are many more but that is how I have seen the 2 groups defined.

If you believe that the adventist faith is standing on evil than you are neither a traditional nor a liberal but simply not an adventist but a person attending an adventist church.

A traditional vs. liberal outlook. in my experience, is not based on doctrine.

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Why not read the article I gave the link to instead of depending upon your limited expericence. If you don't think there are large doctrinal issues involved between traditional and Progressive Adventists it is because you refuse to even look at the issues involved.

RC_NewProtestants said:

It might be best to start with your first assumption about knowing what you know. What you say you know may not be true in which case standing up for something as truth which is not truth would but you on the side of evil whether you know it or not. the evil dividing us may be of your own invention. So we need to objectively examine information to decide if what we say we know is indeed true.

I was not trying to be funny above. It is an emotionalism that seeks to define other people as evil. Would it not be better to expect that they like you are searching for truth and understanding. why is it so hard for Christians to give the benefit of the doubt to other Christians instead of resorting to allegations against other Christians. At least wait until you have some evidence of their evil to call them evil rather then pleading to your own understanding of "I know what I know".

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There are some people who think they have a corner on truth and doctirne but if they have not that emotion called love, all they have is empty words and letters. Jesus wept because he cared and loved about others, he told us to love God and each other, the greatest commandment was "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind." and the second " is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. "

It seems that he was very emotional about how he cared for us and loved us........

So saying, RC, I will clarify my statement of before for you...

"But to be serious, knowing what we know (of what seperates us), how can we bring everyone together (since I care about them and love them also) theologically and spiritually (and emotionally) so that we stop this evil that is dividing us (and do what God wants us to do which is to love Him and share that love with others)?"

I apologize if any misunderstanding from my poor writing as like Moses I am poor of tongue, but rich in love from God which somehow covers all our weaknesses........

Your Christian brother who cares and loves you
Red