Good reason to be an atheist?(moved from Christian Appologetics)

SiderealExalt · Jul 12, 2009

juvenissun said:
I did not say "only". In fact, I suggested "better".

And it better not be a reason which is "spiritual" only. Otherwise, I don't think the religion will fly. If you study Buddhism, you know it is, in fact, not spiritual at all. It is very practical.

Religion is a REALLY bad way of wondering why people are poor.

Super_Rational · Jul 12, 2009

juvenissun said:
I did not say "only". In fact, I suggested "better".

And it better not be a reason which is "spiritual" only. Otherwise, I don't think the religion will fly. If you study Buddhism, you know it is, in fact, not spiritual at all. It is very practical.

I have no idea where you're going with this. But earlier you said "atheist has no answer to this." Most atheists probably aren't spiritual, spiritual relating to gods and such. But then you suggest buddhists have a better answer, but which you also say doesn't have to be entirely spiritual. IOW, an atheist & buddhist may often come up with identical answers, e.g. a non-spiritual answer. You're not being self-consistent here & you're going in circles.

Super_Rational · Jul 12, 2009

juvenissun said:
It is an example. The whole journal of 20 volumes are dedicated to this type of thing. I do not need to study it because I already have the answer. I used it to demonstrate that people ARE serious about it. It is an academic journal and is peer reviewed. Those articles are funded researches.

Yes, of course you have the answers...but you've already told us it doesn't matter if they're wrong or not. But a wrong answer is hardly an answer at all.

But if you reread my earlier post, I said you won't find those journal articles claiming that they are true supernatural events, & in the case of the article you cited, an actual description of the devil. Yes I know serious journals like that exist. There's one for everything these days. The purpose of the journal was to provide research into NDEs, not what the temperature of hell is satan really has a pointy tail. The researcher leaves those questions open to the reader. But it's obvious you wish to remain blind to the difference.

Super_Rational · Jul 12, 2009

SiderealExalt said:
Religion is a REALLY bad way of wondering why people are poor.

But it is a good way to make people poor.

DarkCoffeeJazz · Jul 13, 2009

Super_Rational said:
But it is a good way to make people poor.

Certainly hit the nail on the hammer with that one.
Even if I'm not an atheist, i guess I can agree on a few points.

Eudaimonist · Jul 13, 2009

juvenissun said:
Could you share one atheistic truth with me. I promise I will not attack it like people attacking religion.

What sort of truth are you looking for? Scientific truths? Or personal truths?

One personal truth of mine is that personal flourishing is the ultimate ethical end of one's life, and that rationality is its ultimate means.

I have a philosophical worldview that makes a great deal of sense to me. It makes so much sense, that I feel lacking in nothing as far as meaning and comprehension of life goes.

eudaimonia,

Mark

Eudaimonist · Jul 13, 2009

juvenissun said:
I am not talking about facts. We have many poor people. That is a fact. But the key question is WHY are they poor? Atheist has no answer to it.

Are you kidding me? Economics covers this issue very well, and economics generally does not make any references to religious concepts whatsoever.

The earth is round because the interior of the earth is hot.

References please? I have never heard of this theory. Gravity is the accepted explanation as far as I know.

eudaimonia,

Mark

DarkCoffeeJazz · Jul 13, 2009

Eudaimonist said:
What sort of truth are you looking for? Scientific truths? Or personal truths?

One personal truth of mine is that personal flourishing is the ultimate ethical end of one's life, and that rationality is its ultimate means.

I have a philosophical worldview that makes a great deal of sense to me. It makes so much sense, that I feel lacking in nothing.

eudaimonia,

Mark

Perhaps you could share this world view with me sometime. I'm not the same Jazz everyone knew. I've finally opened my mind and rejected my foolish notions of the christian god.
Of course, I'm not atheist. Probably never will be.
But I'm not into any religion.

Tatsukun · Jul 13, 2009

Well, I have to admit that I haven’t read all the posts in this thread, but I will jump in with both feet…

The reason I am an atheist is that I understand magic isn’t real. I don’t feel the need to give anyone money / attention / loyalty / power because they claim to have magic powers / a magic hat / a magic ring / whatever.

To me, a big part of humanity is thinking about the big questions. How did this all get to be here? What happened before the big bang? Is space really infinite? What does it mean to be a good person?

Institutionalized religion (the guys who say they have magic hats) say they know ‘the answers’ to all these questions and will tell us if we give them money. They have answers, but no proof that they are right. I’m not about to pay someone for answers unless they have proof for them.

Plus, I guess I don’t buy the idea of an “after life”. I think the very idea (which was probably made to help people get over their fear of death) cheapens life. If we deny that death exists (as in, we keep on living in a different form) then that makes it much easier morally to kill, and to blow myself up or whatever for my god. To me, this is life is all we get; treasure and preserve it.

Ok, off the soap-box. Thanks for asking though, now I am going to go back and see what other people answered.

Have a good one!

-Tatsukun

DarkCoffeeJazz · Jul 13, 2009

Thank you for sharing your beliefs/viewpoints on the subject. I cannot agree with all of them, but I cannot deny that there is truth in what you say about "institutionalized religion".

juvenissun · Jul 13, 2009

Eudaimonist said:
What sort of truth are you looking for? Scientific truths? Or personal truths?

One personal truth of mine is that personal flourishing is the ultimate ethical end of one's life, and that rationality is its ultimate means.

I have a philosophical worldview that makes a great deal of sense to me. It makes so much sense, that I feel lacking in nothing as far as meaning and comprehension of life goes.

eudaimonia,

Mark

Very good. Thank you. I assume you are talking about philosophical flourishing, but not material flourishing, because you emphasize rationality.

But this fact does not make sense. When a person reaches to his or her peak philosophical understanding, then all of a sudden, it vanished with the person. (unlike science) The philosophical wealth of the person could not even be passed on to the next generation. [books does not work!]

This is a waste to the extreme degree.

juvenissun · Jul 13, 2009

ArteestX said:
Believe something even if it isn't true. I think that sums up your argument quite nicely.

You do not know. And you don't have a better choice.

juvenissun · Jul 13, 2009

SiderealExalt said:
To you anyway, the popularity or ethical code of a religion is separate from whether it is true or not.

Those people were and are not any dumber than you are.

Wicked Willow · Jul 13, 2009

juvenissun said:
Those people were and are not any dumber than you are.

Intelligence does not prevent people from believing in absurdities. All it takes is a certain emotional attachment, or identification. History books are full of smart people believing the most absurd things about life, the universe, and everything.

Eudaimonist · Jul 13, 2009

juvenissun said:
But this fact does not make sense. When a person reaches to his or her peak philosophical understanding, then all of a sudden, it vanished with the person.

To a certain extent, yes.

This is a waste to the extreme degree.

Perhaps it is waste, but I don't see why I should be bothered by this. I don't see why life should have to guarantee a complete lack of waste. Life does not make any less sense because people die and fail to pass on all of their wisdom. Indeed, this may be a blessing in disguise, since future generations won't be cheated out of the opportunity to develop their own wisdom.

eudaimonia,

Mark

ArteestX · Jul 13, 2009

juvenissun said:
You do not know [the truth]. And you don't have a better choice.

There is a vast difference between:
1) admitting one doesn't know the final truth while being humble about your beliefs even as you go through life with those beliefs, and

2) what you're proposing, believing something that you have no evidence for but makes you feel better because it claims to be absolute.

SiderealExalt · Jul 13, 2009

juvenissun said:
Those people were and are not any dumber than you are.

Your reply to my quoted statement doesn't seem to actually mean anything coherently.

It is still true that how factual something is or isn't is independent of it's moral implications or it's popularity.

Your dwelling on whether the people that perpetuate an idea are smart or not also is independent of that for that matter.

Dharma Wheel · Jul 13, 2009

juvenissun said:
I am not talking about facts.

But I WAS. Either you have misread my original post or you are being deliberately facetious.

We have many poor people. That is a fact. But the key question is WHY are they poor?

Because of the neglect of the rich. All the resources passed into the hands of a minority of people in the world and thus a majority of the Earth's population have been left economically poor. You do not need a religion to answer that.

Are you being serious?

Atheist has no answer to it. Buddhism should have a deep, systematic explanation to that.

You don't need any religion to answer the questions you have posed.

The earth is round because the interior of the earth is hot. The moon is also round. But the moon was probably never hot enough to make itself into a round globe according to the current theory.

The Earth is round because of gravity. I do not know where you got this from.

Dharma Wheel · Jul 13, 2009

Super_Rational said:
Are you saying there's only a spiritual explanation to why people are poor? So you really aren't capable of thinking of a non-religious or non-spiritual reason why? Think hard.

Indeed, it is ridiculous. I would dare to say that the issue of poverty is answered with in a secular mindset; infact Economics is generally secular.

Dharma Wheel · Jul 13, 2009

juvenissun said:
I did not say "only". In fact, I suggested "better".

And it better not be a reason which is "spiritual" only. Otherwise, I don't think the religion will fly. If you study Buddhism, you know it is, in fact, not spiritual at all. It is very practical.

Buddhism is both spiritual and practical, actually.

Good reason to be an atheist?(moved from Christian Appologetics)

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