Good 'ol Herman

[RadMan]

Excerpt from comment by Rev Joel Basely on LQ

"Facts, that I believe are generally acknowledged, tell us that he (Rev Herman Otten: my comment added) went through proper channels as a Sem Student to flag heresy being taught in St. Louis while he was a student and for that he was denied certification. Over the very issues he charged, WELS broke fellowship with the LCMS and the Synodical Conference fractured after 100 years of walking together. After those issues festered, unresolved for a decade, and synodical officials finally acknowledged the heresy being taught in St. Louis, and Pr. Otten had made the laity fully informed of these issues through his publication, the issue exploded in Seminex in 1974. Pres. J.A.O. Preus himself, I believe, credited the success of the New Orleans' Convention and the rejection of the heresy of higher criticism to Rev. Otten's vigilence and making public the teaching of the heretical professors, who denied both the truthfulness and thus the reliability of Scriptures which must also undercut their efficacy and divine origin.

Now it's not breaking the Eighth Commandment to make known what is already public. It's just uncomfortable for those so stupid as to publicly sin.

Rev. Otten's speaking and publishing in these matters has gained him nothing but ridicule and an infamous reputation. So (1) if he earned those things for telling the truth in Christ against the lies that would insinuate themselves into Christ's church, his faithfulness will gain him great rewards in heaven, since he has received nothing for them but the devil's scorn on earth. "

Luther Quest Discussion Group





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[seajoy]

Very interesting post. It says a lot. Makes one wonder why so many hate him.

 

[Tangible]

Very interesting post. It says a lot. Makes one wonder why so many hate him.

Try a steady diet of this: Christian News

 

[DaRev]

Very interesting post. It says a lot. Makes one wonder why so many hate him.

Because he has written and said a number of things that are simply not true. Many of these things have been exposed. He doesn't have much credibility.

 

[RadMan]

Spoiler: Large image

 

[RadMan]

Try a steady diet of this: Christian News

SO what is wrong with what he says? He's calling a spade a spade. How do you route out heterodox in your area. Just ignore it and it will go away?

 

[seajoy]

Because he has written and said a number of things that are simply not true. Many of these things have been exposed. He doesn't have much credibility.

Has anyone ever tried working with him, instead of against him? What purpose would it serve his cause to help the LCMS if he lies? Do you really think he is just an evil liar, without a ounce of credibility? Being from another synod....I should just shut up, I suppose. But I've had a real bad day today so I'm sure I sound real grumpy. But frankly, I'm real sick of this whole bash Otten business. Is he doing that much harm? Or is he just an old man who cares about the LCMS with all his heart and feels no one is listening?

there....done now.

 

[DaRev]

Has anyone ever tried working with him, instead of against him? What purpose would it serve his cause to help the LCMS if he lies? Do you really think he is just an evil liar, without a ounce of credibility? Being from another synod....I should just shut up, I suppose. But I've had a real bad day today so I'm sure I sound real grumpy. But frankly, I'm real sick of this whole bash Otten business. Is he doing that much harm? Or is he just an old man who cares about the LCMS with all his heart and feels no one is listening?

there....done now.

Cares about the LCMS?? He hates the LCMS!

He's actually done a bit of harm. His devisive rhetoric is what caused the conservative faction in the synod to split resulting in the repeated election of Keischnick. The majority of conservatives in synod don't pay him any heed anymore, thus the results we saw at the last convention. I met and spoke with a number of Harrison supporters and none of them really pay much attention to Otten or CN anymore. I suspect that before long he will find something about Harrison that he doesn't like and start ranting about him. It's only a matter of time.

 

[KEPLER]

Very interesting post. It says a lot. Makes one wonder why so many hate him.

Hi seajoy,

Long time no post (on my part). I find myself wanting to stay out of this mess, but at the same time - God forgive me - I feel compelled to remind people of the proverbial elephant in the room.

It is quite possible - indeed, probable - that Mr. Otten did some amount of good vis a vis the Seminex debacle. I believe that God saved the LCMS from becoming yet another obsolete liberal institution in the 1970s, and Mr. Otten was likely one of God's tools in doing so. Just remember, however, that Pharaoh was also God's tool.

Any number of people (in fact, all of us) can do something worthwhile and yet remain poor miserable sinners.

Mr. Otten helped in saving the LCMS from obscurity. Great. He remains, however, a pernicious jerk and worthless human being. Sound too harsh? Perhaps. Those of you who have known me over the years know that I am well capable of being a pernicious jerk myself. I like to think (and surely, I flatter myself) that I come down as a pernicious jerk because - as a professional historian, and as a believing Christian - I believe that facts actually matter.

So, here are the facts, in the words of Mr. Otten himself. The LCMS is NOT unaware of this 'alternate viewpoint' of Mr. Otten. These words are quoted exactly from the following website: Christian responsibility to the truth: The Holocaust issue

Here is the Elephant in the Room:

The Holocaust -- the alleged extermination of some six million Jews (most of them by gassing) -- is a hoax and should be recognized as such by Christians and all informed, honest and truthful men everywhere.

Do you really think he is just an evil liar, without a ounce of credibility?

Speaking ONLY for myself, yes.

 

[seajoy]

Calling him Mr. Otten, must mean you think his call is not valid. Are you sure you can make that judgement, Kepler?
I agree with you on what he said about the holocaust. I think he is very mis-informed there.....but perhaps he has changed his mind on that one. It may be an old quote. Guess I'm just trying to put the best construction on this.

 

[seajoy]

Cares about the LCMS?? He hates the LCMS!

He's actually done a bit of harm. His devisive rhetoric is what caused the conservative faction in the synod to split resulting in the repeated election of Keischnick. The majority of conservatives in synod don't pay him any heed anymore, thus the results we saw at the last convention. I met and spoke with a number of Harrison supporters and none of them really pay much attention to Otten or CN anymore. I suspect that before long he will find something about Harrison that he doesn't like and start ranting about him. It's only a matter of time.

I hope he leaves Harrison alone, because I think Harrison is a fine, God-fearing man who can really help your synod.

I guess I'm surprised that threads about Otten get so much attention on here if he is insignificant.

 

[RadMan]

Mr. Otten helped in saving the LCMS from obscurity. Great. He remains, however, a pernicious jerk and worthless human being. Sound too harsh? Perhaps. Those of you who have known me over the years know that I am well capable of being a pernicious jerk myself. I like to think (and surely, I flatter myself) that I come down as a pernicious jerk because - as a professional historian, and as a believing Christian - I believe that facts actually matter.

So, here are the facts, in the words of Mr. Otten himself. The LCMS is NOT unaware of this 'alternate viewpoint' of Mr. Otten. These words are quoted exactly from the following website: Christian responsibility to the truth: The Holocaust issue

Here is the Elephant in the Room:

The Holocaust -- the alleged extermination of some six million Jews (most of them by gassing) -- is a hoax and should be recognized as such by Christians and all informed, honest and truthful men everywhere.




Speaking ONLY for myself, yes.

Well you are about as far from the truth as anyone can get. In this case you historical knowledge is saddly lacking. Even though he does support his theories he is not anti-Semitic and a racist. You and other uninformed people have been playing that old tired tune for years and it just doesn't take. There is nothing in his writing that would indicate that is supporting nothing but authentic history built on TRUE historical accounts, letters,documents, news articles etc.etc and not the history that the left, socialist, liberal media would have you believe. Otten stands with noted historians who want to go back to true historical accounts rather than bogus information that has bee promoted by secular revisionists who have a socialist agenda. Heman Otten doesn't deny that there were 6 million people killed druing the Holocaust he just denies that they were all Jewish, as promoted by the JDL.

Noted historian David Barton who appeared on Glenn Beck show also defends the anti revisionist historical endeavors.
WallBuilders | Presenting America's forgotten history and heroes, with an emphasis on our moral, religious, and constitutional heritage.


Taken from the web site you listed with some of the prominent historians:

"John Toland, Pulitzer prize-winning American historian, and author of several best-selling works of history.
John Sack, veteran journalist, war correspondent, historian and novelist. This Jewish-American writer is the author of nine non-fiction books.
Tony Martin, professor of African studies at Wellesley College (Massachusetts).
Paul "Pete" McCloskey, former U.S. Congressman (Rep.-Calif.). This U.S. Marine Corps veteran braved enemy fire in Korea, opposed Richard Nixon on Capitol Hill, and spoke out against Israel's violations of U.S. law and the deceit of the Israel-first Anti-Defamation League.
Hideo Miki, professor at Japan's National Defense Academy and retired Lieutenant General of Japan's Self-Defense Forces.
Tom Sunic, author, scholar and former political science professor and diplomat.
James J. Martin, an American historian with a 25-year career as an educator. Author of several meticulously researched historical studies.
Joseph Sobran, author, lecturer, and nationally-syndicated columnist.
David Irving, British historian and author of numerous bestselling works.
John Bennett, Australian civil liberties attorney and activist, and president of the Australian Civil Liberties Union.
A Target of Bigotry
Predictably, we have come under fire from hostile sectarian groups that regard the IHR as harmful to their interests. Zionist groups such as the Simon Wiesenthal Center and the Anti-Defamation League routinely smear the IHR, attacking us as a "hate group" or dismissing us as a "Holocaust denial" organization.
In fact, the IHR steadfastly opposes bigotry of all kinds. We are proud of the support we have earned from people of the most diverse political views, and racial, ethnic and religious backgrounds.
One prominent American journalist and author who has looked into the critical claims made about the IHR is John Sack, who is Jewish. He reported on a three-day IHR conference in an article published in the Feb. 2001 issue of Esquire magazine. He rejected as unfounded the often-repeated lie that the IHR and its supporters are "haters" or bigots. He described those who spoke at and attended the IHR conference as "affable, open-minded, intelligent [and] intellectual."
The Institute has been a target of authentic hate groups. It has come under repeated assault from the Jewish Defense League -- identified as a terrorist group by the FBI. On July 4, 1984, the JDL destroyed the Institute's office and warehouse in a major arson attack. Estimated property loss was more than $400,000, including tens of thousands of books, rare documents, irreplaceable files and expensive office equipment. This fire-bombing climaxed a months-long campaign by the JDL that included numerous death threats by telephone and mail, extensive property damage, five relatively minor fire bombings, one drive-by shooting and two physical assaults.




For Peace And Understanding
Bitter experience has taught people to be skeptical of the pronouncements of politicians and governments, especially during wartime when official and semi-official propagandists are most busy deceiving the public. As American historian Harry Elmer Barnes put it: "Truth is always the first war casualty. The emotional disturbances and distortions in historical writing are greatest in wartime."
Americans have been misled into one costly, destructive and needless war after another. For example, in the months leading up to the 2003 US attack against Iraq, government officials and much of the media deceived the public to justify the invasion and occupation of that country.
Powerful interests -- including politicians and the major media -- often distort the historical record for self-serving reasons. Textbooks, motion pictures and television routinely present history in a slanted and partisan way. As George Orwell aptly noted in his classic Nineteen Eighty-Four: "Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past."
An awareness of factual history is essential to an understanding of the great issues of our age. Especially during these troubled times, the work of the IHR in countering socially harmful historical lies, war propaganda, censorship and intellectual oppression is urgently important. "


About the IHR

 

[KEPLER]

Calling him Mr. Otten, must mean you think his call is not valid. Are you sure you can make that judgement, Kepler?
I agree with you on what he said about the holocaust. I think he is very mis-informed there.....but perhaps he has changed his mind on that one. It may be an old quote. Guess I'm just trying to put the best construction on this.

Seajoy, prior to my original post, I searched around to see if there has been any repudiation on his part of these terribly uninformed views. There has been no public distancing of himself from them that I can find. I should point out that his father (Herman, Sr.) is well known to have held similar views. I point that out to prevent anyone from suggesting that his (Herman, Jr.'s) views on the holocaust are irrelevant to the issues of the 1960s and 70s, since he had never published anything on it until the 80s. Such a position would be completely disingenuous. [ETA] In other words, the Preus brothers were well aware that Otten was a loose cannon with a lot of nutty ideas back in the 60s and 70s. He was frequently utilized as an attack dog, but he was never part of the so-called 'Ping-Pong Club' (the steering committee, if you will) of the broader confessional movement. (Now as that ethical on the part of the Preus brothers? No, it was not. But that's not what's at issue here.)



K

 

[KEPLER]

Well you are about as far from the truth as anyone can get. In this case you historical knowledge is saddly lacking. Even though he does support his theories he is not anti-Semitic and a racist.

Excuse me, John. Where in my post did I call him anti-semitic or racist?

You put words in my mouth that I DID NOT say. You owe me an immediate apology.

Noted historian David Barton who appeared on Glenn Beck show also defends the anti revisionist historical endeavors.
WallBuilders | Presenting America's forgotten history and heroes, with an emphasis on our moral, religious, and constitutional heritage.

David Barton is of the 'WallBuilders' ilk (those who erroneously argue for the 'Christian America' myth), and is anything but a 'noted historian.' And as a theologian (which he is not) he outright sucks, because he has no concept of the two kingdoms.

K

 

[seajoy]

Excuse me, John. Where in my post did I call him anti-semitic or racist?

You put words in my mouth that I DID NOT say. You owe me an immediate apology.




K

I thought you were trying to show anti-semitism too. Otherwise why bring up that particular quote? You called him an evil liar....that kind of fits.
I think Rad was just trying to show the other side here.

Personally, I would love to see Otten threads be over and done with. I think there are a lot more pressing things going on in the LCMS, but nobody brings these things up. I would love to hear what Harrison is up to in changing things - granted, he hasn't had much time to start anything yet. But surely there have been conservatives doing something in the synod over the past few years. I used to be LCMS, and their problems bother me very much. I will say that I am very grateful for the faithful pastors out there.

 

[KEPLER]

I thought you were trying to show anti-semitism too. Otherwise why bring up that particular quote? You called him an evil liar....that kind of fits.
I think Rad was just trying to show the other side here.

Personally, I would love to see Otten threads be over and done with. I think there are a lot more pressing things going on in the LCMS, but nobody brings these things up. I would love to hear what Harrison is up to in changing things - granted, he hasn't had much time to start anything yet. But surely there have been conservatives doing something in the synod over the past few years. I used to be LCMS, and their problems bother me very much. I will say that I am very grateful for the faithful pastors out there.

Hi seajoy,

I don't know what motivates Mr. Otten's holocaust denial. Do I suspect anti-semitism? Sure. But I can't know that. So I didn't say it.

Holocaust denial is - in and of itself - an evil lie. Therefore anyone who propagates such a position is - by default - an evil liar. It's simple math: If A=B and B=C, then A=C.

I think most of the LCMS is willing never to speak of Herman Otten again. But when he is brought up as a subject by a supporter or someone who thinks he was wronged by synod, someone has to remind everyone of ALL of the facts.

K

 

[seajoy]

Hi seajoy,

I don't know what motivates Mr. Otten's holocaust denial. Do I suspect anti-semitism? Sure. But I can't know that. So I didn't say it.

Holocaust denial is - in and of itself - an evil lie. Therefore anyone who propagates such a position is - by default - an evil liar. It's simple math: If A=B and B=C, then A=C.

I think most of the LCMS is willing never to speak of Herman Otten again. But when he is brought up as a subject by a supporter or someone who thinks he was wronged by synod, someone has to remind everyone of ALL of the facts.

K

What good is coming of bringing up all these "facts" all the time? Is slamming Otten helping a single thing in the LCMS?

 

[QuiltAngel]

President Harrison will be the speaker at our District's Pastor Conference on the 27th and 28th. Looks like his main topic is on the Church in Mercy, the Church's Witness and Life Together. I am attending with my husband and will be sitting in on the sessions. Maybe I will have a better idea then of what his vision for Synod is.

We will also have a banquet and I understand a little banjo music

The Otten threads seem to serve the purpose of debate between RadMan and DaRev, seajoy, or, at least that is how I see them.

 

[DaRev]

Personally, I would love to see Otten threads be over and done with.

Don't take this the wrong way, but no one is forced to read any of the threads on this forum. If you don't care for the subject matter, don't read it.

As for me, I feel the need to correct error when I see it in order to keep others, especially those from outside the LCMS, from thinking that Rev. Otten represents any part of the synod or it's policies. He does not and many of the things he writes are in error. I'm sure that if someone were continuously writing things about the WELS that were not accurate you (and PW too, I'm sure) would jump in and correct it. In fact, I have been corrected by you and others when I've posted things that were incorrect.

 

[seajoy]

Don't take this the wrong way, but no one is forced to read any of the threads on this forum. If you don't care for the subject matter, don't read it.

As for me, I feel the need to correct error when I see it in order to keep others, especially those from outside the LCMS, from thinking that Rev. Otten represents any part of the synod or it's policies. He does not and many of the things he writes are in error. I'm sure that if someone were continuously writing things about the WELS that were not accurate you (and PW too, I'm sure) would jump in and correct it. In fact, I have been corrected by you and others when I've posted things that were incorrect.

Guess when there is a new thread, I like to read it. No, I don't take your post the wrong way....and yes, if someone had things wrong about the WELS, I would probably be sputtering. I'll bow out of this thread. It really does not pertain to me anyway being I'm from a different synod. It's just hard for me to see fellow Christians arguing over stuff that and never comes to a conclusion. I see right and wrong on both sides. Ok - done now.