Good ladies and gentlemen, I pose thee a question.

Dirk Gently · Jul 9, 2009

Good ladies and gentlemen of the christian forums, I would like to pose you all a question. Well it's more like a series of questions, but before I ask them, I would like to know that the people answering it fit some terms.

Such as;

You believe in life after death, including Heaven and Hell.
You believe Heaven entails eternal paradise, and Hell entails eternal damnation.
You believe God is omnibenevolent or all loving.
You believe God is omniscient or all knowing.
You believe God is omnipotent or all powerful.
And you believe God has a plan for us.
(I think that's it, but I may have forgotten one or two)

So here's the first one of my questions;

Do you believe murder is immoral?

EDIT: I'm new to the forums, and I'm not sure if this is right section for this thread. If a moderator or admin knows where this thread is supposed to go, could you please move it? Thank you.

MrPolo · Jul 9, 2009

Yes, murder is immoral (barring some extenuating circumstance like self-defense, being a soldier, etc...).

msortwell · Jul 10, 2009

Dirk Gently said:
Good ladies and gentlemen of the christian forums, I would like to pose you all a question. Well it's more like a series of questions, but before I ask them, I would like to know that the people answering it fit some terms.

Such as;

You believe in life after death, including Heaven and Hell.
You believe Heaven entails eternal paradise, and Hell entails eternal damnation.
You believe God is omnibenevolent or all loving.
You believe God is omniscient or all knowing.
You believe God is omnipotent or all powerful.
And you believe God has a plan for us.
(I think that's it, but I may have forgotten one or two)

So here's the first one of my questions;

Do you believe murder is immoral?

EDIT: I'm new to the forums, and I'm not sure if this is right section for this thread. If a moderator or admin knows where this thread is supposed to go, could you please move it? Thank you.

Depending upon what you mean by all loving I may be disqualified from answering your question. There are acts and the perpetrators of certain acts that God hates.

Prov 6:16-19
16 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren. KJV

There are also some persons that God hated even before they were born.

Rom 9:10-13
10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11(for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger." 13 As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated."
NKJV

It then seems readily apparent that God is not all loving.

AmericanCatholic · Jul 11, 2009

It seems as if God hates hate; because if he had loved hate, he would be hate and not love, and therefore I think it is safe to conclude that God is perfectly loving and therefore cannot love hate.

msortwell · Jul 11, 2009

AmericanCatholic said:
It seems as if God hates hate; because if he had loved hate, he would be hate and not love, and therefore I think it is safe to conclude that God is perfectly loving and therefore cannot love hate.

I have to admit that I cannot tell if you are trying to amuse, edify, or confuse.

Submerged06 · Jul 23, 2009

AmericanCatholic said:
It seems as if God hates hate; because if he had loved hate, he would be hate and not love, and therefore I think it is safe to conclude that God is perfectly loving and therefore cannot love hate.

But if God hated hate, then he would have to hate himself for having hatred, which is not possible. Therefore he must not hate hate.

Since everything God does is good, then not hating hate must also be good. Therefore, there must be something which is good to hate -- otherwise hating would be necessarily bad (since there would be no objects that could be rightfully hated) and God would be evil for hating when there was nothing for which it was good to hate.

I can thus conclude that there is something in existence in which it is good to hate. Once we define what that is we're in business

I guess this is as good of a first post to these forums as any

wayseer · Jul 23, 2009

Dirk Gently said:
So here's the first one of my questions;

Do you believe murder is immoral?

I guess you are arguing that murder is a moral act and should be promoted for the sake of Christ.

Care to explain?

Submerged06 · Jul 23, 2009

wayseer said:
I guess you are arguing that murder is a moral act and should be promoted for the sake of Christ.

Care to explain?

He may not be arguing that it is a moral act per se -- or, at least, not a moral act in every situation. He probably is wondering if it is wrong in every situation or if there are allowable situations for it (while still being wrong most of the time).

I'm not sure if he is addressing murder vs. killing (i.e., cold-blooded, undeserved killing versus self-defense, warfare, etc.) though.

wayseer · Jul 23, 2009

Submerged06 said:
He may not be arguing that it is a moral act per se -- or, at least, not a moral act in every situation. He probably is wondering if it is wrong in every situation or if there are allowable situations for it (while still being wrong most of the time).

I'm not sure if he is addressing murder vs. killing (i.e., cold-blooded, undeserved killing versus self-defense, warfare, etc.) though.

Let's wait to see if he returns.

tansy · Jul 23, 2009

Yes..that's what I wondered...there is a difference I think between killing and murder
...but how do you define which is which. That is of course, presumably why in law, there are things like manslaughter, 1st degree murder etc etc.
Perhaps you couldn define exactly what you mean?

Also another aspect is suicide which in the German at least (Selbstmorder), literally means self-murder...can that be considered immoral..and in what circumstances?

trentlogain2 · Aug 25, 2009

Yes. Killing and murder is immoral. It doesn't make a difference if it's in self-defense or if someone is a soldier. It's wrong.

This is a forum about sin, is it not?

Placer9 · Sep 1, 2009

Do you believe murder is immoral?

Yes. Beyond classification of human morality, we are in the category of Divine morals.

Some sins are intrinsically evil and this is one. We are servants of God, not deciders of destiny. God has a plan for each of us and murder short circuits God's plans as well has removes the potential for other duties that servant would otherwise render.

Bob

sungaunga · Sep 1, 2009

It's not important what I believe. Scriptures tells us murder is sin. It goes as far as to tell us even hating someone is murder. And you forgot some important attributes of God.

Not only is he all Loving, he is all Just all Righteous and all Holy. He's not a prisoner of just one of his attributes. God always always acts in a way that is consistent with his full attributes. He will be glorified in his Holy Hatred as well as Loving Mercy. Everything he does is Just. Better yet, "Just" is the definition of what he does. And God hates all who does iniquity. O sure he is patiently surpressing his final Holy Wrath. But that day will come when all evil is wiped out.

I quote pastor MacArthur

Let me say it another way. Because God loves does not mean that His love is separated from His other attributes. It does not mean that that love exists, as it were, in isolation from everything else as if it was untouched, unmodified and unmixed and unaffected by holiness, wrath, righteousness, judgment and every other attribute. God is neither the jailor nor is He the prisoner of any of His attributes. Each of them acts not independently but in perfect harmony with all the others. If God then is to glorify Himself, He must put all of His attributes on display. And whatever His love accomplishes can in no way obliterate His other attributes. Whatever His mercy and grace and kindness and goodness and tender-heartedness achieved cannot obliterate what will be made manifest by His hatred, His anger, His wrath, His vengeance and His justice. All of God's attributes have a place in the demonstration that He carries out through the purposes of creation

If you understand this one great surpassing truth about God, it's going to answer all those difficult questions that I posed at the beginning. If you only understand this, you're on the way and that is the simple truth although it is profoundly revealed and much of it unknown to us...the simple truth is God does whatever manifests the fullness of His glory. Whatever puts His glory on display and His glory is the sum of all of His attributes. God cannot in doing one thing cancel out something else. God's glory is the issue

There are over 6 sermons on the Love of God check it out it will greatly edify you
The Love of God, Part 4 :: Grace to You you can download the audio.

AmericanCatholic · Oct 1, 2009

trentlogain2 said:
Yes. Killing and murder is immoral. It doesn't make a difference if it's in self-defense or if someone is a soldier. It's wrong.

This is a forum about sin, is it not?

Can a perfectly good, all-powerful God command an immoral act to be done?

LST 1154 · Jan 6, 2010

trentlogain2 said:
Yes. Killing and murder is immoral. It doesn't make a difference if it's in self-defense or if someone is a soldier. It's wrong.

So a man breaks down your door at midnight and while pointing a handgun at you says he is going to first kill you then he is going to "have his way" with your wife and little daughter and then he is going to kill them so you lunge for the gun and in the struggle the gun goes off killing him. On judgment day God is going to hold you accountable for his death? I'm glad I don't serve your god.

Soldiers are not murderers either.

LST

JCFantasy23 · Feb 4, 2011

Dirk Gently said:
So here's the first one of my questions;

Do you believe murder is immoral?

.

Yes, murder is completely immoral.

For one thing, it derives those of life. They were given life for a reason and it is not up to us to play God and intervene with that and the path they should have taken. Also, by murder we cause grief to the surrounding friends and relatives, and a Christian should better the lives of those around them, not cause agonizing pain. Most murders are committed for no good reason as well, many from a sinful viewpoint - greed, jealousy, anger, and revenge - all warned against repeatably in the bible.

caprice09 · Feb 13, 2011

Right on, American Gothic and LST.

God never said you cannot defend yourself, or even better yet, act in defense of others (which is the works of salvation and judgment on His people's behalf).

Help us, O God of our salvation, for the glory of thy name: and deliver us, and purge away our sins, for thy name's sake. Wherefore should the heathen say, Where is their God? let him be known among the heathen in our sight by the revenging of the blood of thy servants which is shed. Let the sighing of the prisoner come before thee; according to the greatness of thy power preserve thou those that are appointed to die;
(Psa 79:9-11)

So the heathen shall fear the name of the LORD, and all the kings of the earth thy glory. When the LORD shall build up Zion, he shall appear in his glory. He will regard the prayer of the destitute, and not despise their prayer. This shall be written for the generation to come: and the people which shall be created shall praise the LORD. For he hath looked down from the height of his sanctuary; from heaven did the LORD behold the earth; To hear the groaning of the prisoner; to loose those that are appointed to death;
(Psa 102:15-20)

God Himself assembled armies for the purposes of judgment (such as upon the Land of Canaan or the Philistines). He assembled the armies into ranks for the purposes of defending the country (just as a single man might protect His home).

When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace:
(Luk 11:21)

No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.
(Mar 3:27)

Someone earlier said that hatred is murder unto God...Yes, and that is the deciding factor of murder (premeditation and/or malice in his heart). The only exemption even in the law is concerning what we now call manslaughter (doing something careless and stupid which resulted in the harm or death of another).

Handmaid for Jesus · Feb 15, 2011

Jesus said even vengeful anger is murder, so yes I believe murder is sin and immoral. But, in a kill or be killed situation, such as war and self defense, and I would include accidental killing in this too cause accidents can happen, I think God those are not immoral.

oneofchrists · Feb 22, 2011

What does the 6th Commandment tell us????

LST 1154 · Feb 22, 2011

oneofchrists said:
What does the 6th Commandment tell us????

Ex 20:13 "You shall not murder." Now we need a definition. "Murder: "The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice." So if a man aims a loaded firearm at a police officer with the intention to kill the officer, but before he gets a chance to pull the trigger the officer shoots and kills the man the officer is not guilty of murder. Now had the man shot and killed the officer the man would be guilty of murder.

If you are an OT law keeper and you have convinced yourself that keeping the laws of the OT is the way of righteousness and the way to God's heart, then you must keep all 613 of them not just 10. You cannot do it by the way. No one could (except Jesus) and no one can, and now that the new covenant came along we now have 237 more, so now you must keep all 850 of them 100% of the time.

It will be interesting how you will reconcile Lev 11:7 "And the pig....is unclean for you" with Acts 10:15 "And a voice spoke to him again the second time, "What God has cleansed you must not call unclean." So are you going to have that sausage and egg McMuffin tomorrow morning or is it a sin to eat it?

LST

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