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Good and Evil

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Just thinking outside the box here. For the sake of argument lets assume that God exists and we are spiritual beings. Christianity says that our spirits died with the fall and the blood of Christ has the ability to make them eternally alive (through the Holy Spirit). With this in mind, physical death is not the end for us. So it stands to reason that if this life is not our last, God has established a future for us (heaven). Now I can understand both sides of the argument about creating a world without evil. However, if heaven exist then that means God is absolute. We will then be able to objectively understand good. If this is the case I just simply cannot see why we would choose to operate outside of the goodness of God (especially after going through this life). Satan (Lucifer, the devil etc) fell because of his ego and jealousy (he had free will). So he started from a perfect place but fell into a broken one. We on the other hand would be starting from a broken place and going to a perfect one. Perhaps evil would not exist in this place because we would simply choose to stay inside the goodness of an objective God. Just a thought.
 
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PsychoSarah

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The existence of free agents is necessary for there to exist free agents who have the freedom to choose to love their neighbor.

The freedom to choose to love one's neighbor entails the freedom to choose to rape one's neighbor.

Since when is rape an act of love?
 
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Archaeopteryx

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A world in which there is no option to commit evil is not a world like ours, for such a world would be void of free moral agents capable of committing evil.

Such a world you envision would not contain human beings.

No, such a world would not contain human beings who are capable of doing evil because there is no option to do evil. That's not to say that there aren't other options available for those beings to freely choose from.

It seems to me that you are arguing that there is a world in which free moral agents exist and do not have the option of committing evil. But how would these agents be "free" if they were not free to choose to commit evil?

They would still be 'free' because they would have options to choose from, but none of those options would include evil.

I can indeed conceive of such a world where you are immediately and unambiguously punished by God when you commit an evil act.

But how would that look?

Imagine a world in which the moment two homosexuals begin to act on their desire to lay with one another they immediately combust and burst into flames and this happens whenever homosexuals try to be intimate with one another.

Imagine a world in which you look at a woman or man and lust after them in your own heart, and are immediately struck by large stones falling from the heavens and this happens whenever someone lusts in their heart.

Imagine a world where whenever people put something before God thus making it an idol, they have a stroke and are paralyzed for the rest of their life.

Imagine a world wherein when anyone takes the name of God in vain their tongue falls out.

Now I will be charitable and even agree with you that these things would make God's moral code crystal clear to everyone. What follows?

How many of us would be alive if we were struck dead everytime we did something evil?

How many of us would be able to function if we were paralyzed or incapacitated every time we did something evil?

The world you conceive of is conceivable, but I have no reason whatsoever to think that God would prefer such a world to the one He created.

Why would he prefer to create a world in which his moral code is entirely ambiguous and conveyed to the masses through unreliable prophets? If he cares about people doing good then shouldn't he punish evil in a straightforward manner? Why would spontaneous combustion, stroke, and a hail of stones be the punishment you think he would use? That kind of punishment would render people paralysed or incapacitated, but it would also prevent evil, would it not?

I do not have to elucidate what they are. As long as it is possible that He has morally sufficient reasons for allowing evil, then it does not follow that the existence of evil and the existence of an omnibenevolent and omnipotent God is logically incompatible.

In fact, I do not have to even make the argument I made. All I had to do was to show that one of your assumptions was not necessarily true and I have not only done that, but shown that both fail to be necessarily true, thus rendering it doubly invalid.

So you admit that you're just speculating: "God might have a reason for allowing genocides to occur." He also might not. I hope you can see how grotesque such a statement is. You are, in effect, saying that it is good that God did not intervene to prevent genocide because he may have a morally sufficient reason for doing so.* Therefore, it is good that the genocide happened because God allowed it.

* Which is problematic in itself if God is the source of morality and thus his own sufficient reason.

How does that follow?

I cannot make it any more clearer for you.

I doubt it would be comforting at all.

But I have never argued that the free will defense against the logical version of the argument from evil is something that is comforting.

And besides, are you not more concerned with what the truth is? If the truth is disconcerting to you, then that is something you have to deal with.

I do not claim that the answers are comforting or easy. Evil according to the Christian is real and has real consequences and hurts. But the Christian also claims that God has not stood idly by, but has entered into history and shared in our sufferings so that we might have hope that one day, evil will be vanquished finally and totally.

It could have been vanquished finally and totally from the very beginning. That's the problem. What we have from apologetics today is a litany of excuses for the inaction of their ostensibly all-good deity: "God will vanquish evil one day", "He works in mysterious ways", "We can't understand God's will. He may have very good reasons for allowing genocide to occur."

Well now, it seems you have just pushed the matter one step further back by saying:

"It is wrong because it is dishonest and can lead to others being harmed."

But my question still remains sir:

What or who obligates me to be honest and concerned about the well being of others?"

I've already addressed this: "Presumably you would not appreciate others having an unfair advantage over you." Presumably you wouldn't want to be harmed by others either.
 
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Jeremy E Walker

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No, such a world would not contain human beings who are capable of doing evil because there is no option to do evil. That's not to say that there aren't other options available for those beings to freely choose from.



They would still be 'free' because they would have options to choose from, but none of those options would include evil.

When I think of a human being, I think of a creature that says things like:

You ought not to cut in front of me, I was here first!

or

You should not abuse little children, it is wrong didn't ya know?

So when I think of a human being, I am thinking of a creature that has an awareness of, or an apprehension of this "realm" of moral value and obligation. I think of a creature that orders its life around "convictions" and beliefs that certain things are evil or good.

I believe that God could indeed have made a creature that had a will and ability to choose between this thing or that thing. He could have made them look exactly like we do physically.

But if this creature had no concept of good and evil, then how could you say that they are like us i.e. a human being?

It seems that morality is that one thing that separates us from every other creature, does it not? Is that not what makes us so very unique? Take that away and I do not see how you can say that what is left is a human being.

That is my point.

You have something that looks human. Like an android perhaps. If you have ever seen the movie "Alien", you will recall that there was an android on the ship named "Ashe". He looked like a man, talked like a man, etc. etc. But he was not a man. He did not have the ability to choose to do good or evil. To heal or to harm. He acted in accordance with the commands he received as any computer does. But what if God made creatures like that, only with the ability to choose to say, oh....build a house, or reproduce, or to make music or to paint. Well, I would say that is all well and good. But those creatures would never know what it meant to love someone. They would never know what it meant to be in love.

So it seems to me that such a world is conceivable no doubt. But if God is love, as Christians claim, then how is a world void of love, more preferable over the one He has made wherein we can know and experience and give and receive love?



Why would he prefer to create a world in which his moral code is entirely ambiguous and conveyed to the masses through unreliable prophets?

You are stepping into the deep waters now. Shouldering an enormous burden. Why is God's moral code entirely ambiguous? Why are the prophets unreliable?

Two truth claims here that I am eager to see you substantiate.


If he cares about people doing good then shouldn't he punish evil in a straightforward manner?

He does care, but not to the exclusion of everything else (here I am thinking of His plan in toto for humanity). You also forget that God is longsuffering and merciful. He gives us chances, even after we screw up. He is not like so many men out here that are willing to cast us off as no good after one slip up or mistake.

This is an argument you are making, i.e. that if God cares about people doing good then he would punish evil in a straightforward manner. How does that follow? The propositions: God cares about people doing good and evil is not always punished in a straightforward manner are not logically incompatible, so what assumptions are you making?


Why would spontaneous combustion, stroke, and a hail of stones be the punishment you think he would use? That kind of punishment would render people paralysed or incapacitated, but it would also prevent evil, would it not?

What the punishment is is immaterial. It is moot. The point is that the punishment be immediate and recognizable as stemming from God's displeasure. And who is to say that it would prevent people from doing evil? I know of several people (I used to be one of them) who have done and do things knowing that harm/evil will result but do them anyway! Why? Because they/I wanted to do them! Because it felt so gooooood!





So you admit that you're just speculating: "God might have a reason for allowing genocides to occur." He also might not. I hope you can see how grotesque such a statement is. You are, in effect, saying that it is good that God did not intervene to prevent genocide because he may have a morally sufficient reason for doing so.* Therefore, it is good that the genocide happened because God allowed it.

* Which is problematic in itself if God is the source of morality and thus his own sufficient reason.

I do not believe that God has not intervened in the genocides that have happened. That is your argument. It is a burden I do not think you can bear. How can you prove that God did not intervene in let's say, the Holocaust? How could you prove He did not intervene?



It could have been vanquished finally and totally from the very beginning. That's the problem.

It is a problem for you because you think God would vanquish it from the beginning. You have given no argument that shows why an omnibenevolent, omnipotent God who wanted to create free moral agents in His image and likeness would have to vanquish evil from the very beginning. You are just rehashing the same argument based on doubly invalid assumptions.





I've already addressed this: "Presumably you would not appreciate others having an unfair advantage over you." Presumably you wouldn't want to be harmed by others either.

Bingo my man..

You keep reinforcing my point!

You presume that you and I share the same opinion about the matter. If we did, then we would be all good.

But what if I did not share your opinion and view. What if I could care less about what people did to me as long as I got what I wanted?
 
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Archaeopteryx

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When I think of a human being, I think of a creature that says things like:

You ought not to cut in front of me, I was here first!

or

You should not abuse little children, it is wrong didn't ya know?

So when I think of a human being, I am thinking of a creature that has an awareness of, or an apprehension of this "realm" of moral value and obligation. I think of a creature that orders its life around "convictions" and beliefs that certain things are evil or good.

I believe that God could indeed have made a creature that had a will and ability to choose between this thing or that thing. He could have made them look exactly like we do physically.

But if this creature had no concept of good and evil, then how could you say that they are like us i.e. a human being?

Adam and Eve had no concept of good and evil until they ate of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Were they not human beings?

It seems that morality is that one thing that separates us from every other creature, does it not? Is that not what makes us so very unique? Take that away and I do not see how you can say that what is left is a human being.

Aspects of morality are seen in other primate species.

You have something that looks human. Like an android perhaps. If you have ever seen the movie "Alien", you will recall that there was an android on the ship named "Ashe". He looked like a man, talked like a man, etc. etc. But he was not a man. He did not have the ability to choose to do good or evil. To heal or to harm. He acted in accordance with the commands he received as any computer does. But what if God made creatures like that, only with the ability to choose to say, oh....build a house, or reproduce, or to make music or to paint. Well, I would say that is all well and good. But those creatures would never know what it meant to love someone. They would never know what it meant to be in love.

So it seems to me that such a world is conceivable no doubt. But if God is love, as Christians claim, then how is a world void of love, more preferable over the one He has made wherein we can know and experience and give and receive love?

Why would the unavailability of options to do evil be incompatible with the ability to love? I'm not sure I follow your reasoning here.

You are stepping into the deep waters now. Shouldering an enormous burden. Why is God's moral code entirely ambiguous? Why are the prophets unreliable?

Two truth claims here that I am eager to see you substantiate.

If you recall, I asked you the question.

He does care, but not to the exclusion of everything else (here I am thinking of His plan in toto for humanity).

And that plan is?

You also forget that God is longsuffering and merciful. He gives us chances, even after we screw up. He is not like so many men out here that are willing to cast us off as no good after one slip up or mistake.

Or non-belief?

This is an argument you are making, i.e. that if God cares about people doing good then he would punish evil in a straightforward manner. How does that follow? The propositions: God cares about people doing good and evil is not always punished in a straightforward manner are not logically incompatible, so what assumptions are you making?

I think I've already covered this. If God cares about people doing good and refraining from evil then it makes sense for him to clarify what he means by 'good' and 'evil' and to institute clear punishments for that which is designated evil.

What the punishment is is immaterial. It is moot. The point is that the punishment be immediate and recognizable as stemming from God's displeasure. And who is to say that it would prevent people from doing evil? I know of several people (I used to be one of them) who have done and do things knowing that harm/evil will result but do them anyway! Why? Because they/I wanted to do them! Because it felt so gooooood!

Given the sort of punishments you've described, I'm fairly certain they would indeed prevent evil.

I do not believe that God has not intervened in the genocides that have happened. That is your argument. It is a burden I do not think you can bear. How can you prove that God did not intervene in let's say, the Holocaust? How could you prove He did not intervene?

I can't, but then again I don't believe in deities. You do. Do you believe that he intervened? What was the extent of his intervention and why wasn't it greater?

It is a problem for you because you think God would vanquish it from the beginning. You have given no argument that shows why an omnibenevolent, omnipotent God who wanted to create free moral agents in His image and likeness would have to vanquish evil from the very beginning. You are just rehashing the same argument based on doubly invalid assumptions.

Because (1) he is all good, (2) he has the power to do so, and (3) according to you, he is willing to do so and (4) will ultimately do so.

Bingo my man..

You keep reinforcing my point!

You presume that you and I share the same opinion about the matter. If we did, then we would be all good.

But what if I did not share your opinion and view. What if I could care less about what people did to me as long as I got what I wanted?

Then you would be a psychopath and not even religion could make you act morally.
 
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Jeremy E Walker

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I have shown why the logical problem of evil in deductive form is not a good argument against the existence of God. It is based on two crucial assumptions that must be shown to be necessarily true, but they are not. Thus the argument fails to be a good one.

There are other versions that you may want to reference.

I want to speak on something you said about being a psychopath.

You stated that if I did not share your opinion and happened to not care about what people did as long as I get what I want, that I would be a psychopath and nothing could make me act morally.

I think what you mean to say is that nothing could make me share your particular view of morality, to which I would say: So what? Why should I prefer your opinions over my own? Who made you an authority on what is moral or immoral?
 
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PsychoSarah

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I have shown why the logical problem of evil in deductive form is not a good argument against the existence of God.

No one claims it is. It is only an argument against the existence of a deity which is both all benevolent and all powerful. A god which doesn't have both of these qualities doesn't have the same problem.
 
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quatona

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I think what you mean to say is that nothing could make me share your particular view of morality, to which I would say: So what? Why should I prefer your opinions over my own? Who made you an authority on what is moral or immoral?
Great question! "God shares my opinion" seems to be the killer answer.
 
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Jeremy E Walker

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No one claims it is. It is only an argument against the existence of a deity which is both all benevolent and all powerful. A god which doesn't have both of these qualities doesn't have the same problem.

It is a bad argument against the existence of an all-powerful, all-loving God Sarah.

I just spent several days writing about it.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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Welcome back Elioenai26. :wave:

I have shown why the logical problem of evil in deductive form is not a good argument against the existence of God. It is based on two crucial assumptions that must be shown to be necessarily true, but they are not. Thus the argument fails to be a good one.

There are other versions that you may want to reference.

Actually, I don't think you've shown that at all. You've referenced some interesting objections, but I don't think they undercut the argument. The central point of the argument was to consider why God doesn't intervene to prevent evil. In response to your last post, in which you seemed to indicate that God does indeed intervene (at least in cases of genocide), I asked you to what extent God had intervened and why wasn't his intervention greater? I'm interested in hearing your answer to that question.

I want to speak on something you said about being a psychopath.

You stated that if I did not share your opinion and happened to not care about what people did as long as I get what I want, that I would be a psychopath and nothing could make me act morally.

I think what you mean to say is that nothing could make me share your particular view of morality, to which I would say: So what? Why should I prefer your opinions over my own? Who made you an authority on what is moral or immoral?

No, I very clearly said that, if that were the case, then nothing could make you act morally. Morality is simply something that you are not open to, and no amount of argument or even the threat of Hell will be sufficient to make you act morally. You simply do not care for morality and there is nothing that can compel you to have moral concerns.
 
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theophilus777

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No one claims it is. It is only an argument against the existence of a deity which is both all benevolent and all powerful. A god which doesn't have both of these qualities doesn't have the same problem.

The God of the Bible doesn't have those problems anyway, as written. Even if you write in the omnibenevolence stuff, along with omnipotence. The only way you can avoid this conclusion is to simply write off a boatload of details we're given.
 
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Jeremy E Walker

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but I don't think they undercut the argument. The central point of the argument was to consider why God doesn't intervene to prevent evil.

Actually the logical problem of evil seeks to demonstrate that the existence of evil and the existence of an omnipotent and omnibenevolent God are logically incompatible.

To do this you must make one crucial assumption. You have made two, but one must at least be made.

The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy asks:

How is the argument from evil best formulated? As an incompatibility argument, or as an evidential argument? In section 1.1, an incompatibility formulation of a very abstract sort was set out, which appealed to the mere fact that the world contains at least some evil. That formulation involved the following crucial premise:

If God is morally perfect, then God has the desire to eliminate all evil.

The problem with that premise, as we saw, is that it can be argued that some evils are such that their actuality, or at least the possibility, is logically necessary for goods that outweigh them, in which case it is not true that a perfectly good being would want to eliminate such evils.

Thus the encyclopedia goes on to state:

...it is surely best to get that crucial inductive step out into the open, and thus to formulate the argument from evil not as a deductive argument for the very strong claim that it is logically impossible for both God and evil to exist, (or for God and certain types, or instances, of evil to exist), but as an evidential (inductive/probabilistic) argument for the more modest claim that there are evils that actually exist in the world that make it unlikely that God exists.


The Problem of Evil (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

Now you know why the following statements have been made regarding Plantinga's Free Will defense:

According to Chad Meister, professor of philosophy at Bethel College, most philosophers accept Plantinga's free will defense and thus see the logical problem of evil as having been sufficiently rebutted.[24]

Robert Adams says that "it is fair to say that Plantinga has solved this problem. That is, he has argued convincingly for the consistency of God and evil."[25]

William Alston has said that "Plantinga [...] has established the possibility that God could not actualize a world containing free creatures that always do the right thing."[26]

William L. Rowe has written "granted incompatibilism, there is a fairly compelling argument for the view that the existence of evil is logically consistent with the existence of the theistic God", referring to Plantinga's argument.

And summing it up:

"Among contemporary philosophers, most discussion on the problem of evil presently revolves around the evidential problem of evil, namely that the existence of God is unlikely, rather than illogical." Beebe, James R. (July 12, 2005). "Logical Problem of Evil". Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy. Retrieved September 21, 2009.

Now if you think the argument is a good one after you have been shown it is not, then fine. I will leave you to it.


In response to your last post, in which you seemed to indicate that God does indeed intervene (at least in cases of genocide), I asked you to what extent God had intervened and why wasn't his intervention greater? I'm interested in hearing your answer to that question.

I believe He does but that is irrelevant to the argument. You need to deal with the free will defense which shows that the crucial premise undergirding your argument is not necessarily true. Asking me to explain my beliefs about God's intervention or lack thereof in genocides is a red herring.



No, I very clearly said that, if that were the case, then nothing could make you act morally. Morality is simply something that you are not open to, and no amount of argument or even the threat of Hell will be sufficient to make you act morally. You simply do not care for morality and there is nothing that can compel you to have moral concerns.

You cannot help but keep proving my point. I do not care for your opinion of what morality is if I believe that there is no God. I am left to determine what is moral and immoral. You have no way of arguing that can demonstrate that your particular set of moral values is preferable to mine without appealing to your opinion. But I have my own opinion which is equally valid in your world.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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"To consider?" How is it even possible, in this day and age, that there exists anyone who hasn't figured even that much out yet? So lost and undone, with no knowledge of God ...

Feel free to make a substantive contribution. Enlighten me, oh enlightened one. :bow:
 
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Archaeopteryx

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Actually the logical problem of evil seeks to demonstrate that the existence of evil and the existence of an omnipotent and omnibenevolent God are logically incompatible.

To do this you must make one crucial assumption. You have made two, but one must at least be made.

The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy asks:

How is the argument from evil best formulated? As an incompatibility argument, or as an evidential argument? In section 1.1, an incompatibility formulation of a very abstract sort was set out, which appealed to the mere fact that the world contains at least some evil. That formulation involved the following crucial premise:

If God is morally perfect, then God has the desire to eliminate all evil.

The problem with that premise, as we saw, is that it can be argued that some evils are such that their actuality, or at least the possibility, is logically necessary for goods that outweigh them, in which case it is not true that a perfectly good being would want to eliminate such evils.

Thus the encyclopedia goes on to state:

...it is surely best to get that crucial inductive step out into the open, and thus to formulate the argument from evil not as a deductive argument for the very strong claim that it is logically impossible for both God and evil to exist, (or for God and certain types, or instances, of evil to exist), but as an evidential (inductive/probabilistic) argument for the more modest claim that there are evils that actually exist in the world that make it unlikely that God exists.


The Problem of Evil (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

Now you know why the following statements have been made regarding Plantinga's Free Will defense:

According to Chad Meister, professor of philosophy at Bethel College, most philosophers accept Plantinga's free will defense and thus see the logical problem of evil as having been sufficiently rebutted.[24]

Robert Adams says that "it is fair to say that Plantinga has solved this problem. That is, he has argued convincingly for the consistency of God and evil."[25]

William Alston has said that "Plantinga [...] has established the possibility that God could not actualize a world containing free creatures that always do the right thing."[26]

William L. Rowe has written "granted incompatibilism, there is a fairly compelling argument for the view that the existence of evil is logically consistent with the existence of the theistic God", referring to Plantinga's argument.

And summing it up:

"Among contemporary philosophers, most discussion on the problem of evil presently revolves around the evidential problem of evil, namely that the existence of God is unlikely, rather than illogical." Beebe, James R. (July 12, 2005). "Logical Problem of Evil". Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy. Retrieved September 21, 2009.

Now if you think the argument is a good one after you have been shown it is not, then fine. I will leave you to it.

A fallacious appeal to authority is not a good way of undermining an argument or position. If it were, then one could effectively argue against theism by appealing to the majority view of philosophers. Perhaps even more troubling, however, is your use of selective quotation to support your appeal to authority. The section of text wherein you quote philosophers who applaud Platinga's free will defence has been copied directly from Wikipedia, without acknowledgment. You've also omitted those quotes that reflect unfavourably on Platinga's defence, so as to bolster your appeal to authority. Here is the text in full, with the omitted portion in bold:

Wikipedia said:
According to Chad Meister, professor of philosophy at Bethel College, most philosophers accept Plantinga's free will defense and thus see the logical problem of evil as having been sufficiently rebutted.[24] Robert Adams says that "it is fair to say that Plantinga has solved this problem. That is, he has argued convincingly for the consistency of God and evil."[25] William Alston has said that "Plantinga [...] has established the possibility that God could not actualize a world containing free creatures that always do the right thing."[26] William L. Rowe has written "granted incompatibilism, there is a fairly compelling argument for the view that the existence of evil is logically consistent with the existence of the theistic God", referring to Plantinga's argument.[27]

In Arguing about Gods, Graham Oppy offers a dissent, acknowledging that "[m]any philosophers seem to suppose that [Plantinga's free will defense] utterly demolishes the kinds of 'logical' arguments from evil developed by Mackie" but continuing "I am not sure this is a correct assessment of the current state of play".[28] Concurring with Oppy, A.M. Weisberger writes “contrary to popular theistic opinion, the logical form of the argument is still alive and beating.”[29] Among contemporary philosophers, most discussion on the problem of evil presently revolves around the evidential problem of evil, namely that the existence of God is unlikely, rather than illogical.[2]


You need to deal with the free will defense which shows that the crucial premise undergirding your argument is not necessarily true.

I have dealt with the free will defence, as my previous responses to you show. I see little to no reason to believe that free will would necessarily be undermined if agents had various options available to them that did not include the option to do evil. I also proposed that, even with the option to do evil available, evil itself could be lessened by God intervening directly to punish evildoers for their sins. You believe that God intervenes in some circumstances, raising the question of why he doesn't intervene more extensively in order to lessen evil.

I believe He does but that is irrelevant to the argument. ... Asking me to explain my beliefs about God's intervention or lack thereof in genocides is a red herring.

It's not irrelevant to the discussion, however. In fact, it's central to it. You believe that God has intervened in genocides. This raises the question of why he chose to intervene then, what the extent of his intervention was, and why his intervention was not greater (i.e., preventing the genocide altogether). Far from being a red herring, these questions are exactly the sort that need to be considered if we are going to grapple with issue of why a good God would allow all manner of evil, except in those few instances where he ostensibly intervenes.

You cannot help but keep proving my point.

In what way?

I do not care for your opinion of what morality is if I believe that there is no God. I am left to determine what is moral and immoral. You have no way of arguing that can demonstrate that your particular set of moral values is preferable to mine without appealing to your opinion.

To reiterate what I said previously: then you would be a psychopath, and not even religion could make you act morally. You would simply dismiss religiously based moral injunctions as someone else's religious opinion.

But I have my own opinion which is equally valid in your world.

You're not a very good mind-reader.
 
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quatona

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I do not care for your opinion of what morality is if I believe that there is no God.
But since you believe there is a God, you do care for my moral opinion?? :confused:
I am left to determine what is moral and immoral.
That´s unfortunate, indeed.

You have no way of arguing that can demonstrate that your particular set of moral values is preferable to mine without appealing to your opinion.
Well, neither have you.
But I have my own opinion which is equally valid in your world.
"Validity" is not the issue, in my world. The issue is the mere observation that your and my opinion as to what´s moral/immoral may differ. This problem needs to be dealt with, in my world. Simply saying "You are wrong" doesn´t seem to be particularly convincing, and neither is "You are wrong, and I believe there´s a God who thinks like I do." (even though it appears to be a killer argument, in your world)
 
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Archaeopteryx

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let me start over. i am going step by step.

Archaeopteryx, are you aware that there are two different ways to formulate the argument from evil or afe?

Yes or no?

You can "start over" by addressing the comments I made in the previous post, instead of ignoring them.
 
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Jeremy E Walker

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You can "start over" by addressing the comments I made in the previous post, instead of ignoring them.

I could do that. But it seems we have been talking past one another. I am no longer sure you and I even have the same argument in mind.

So we need to get on the same page.

Are you defending the deductive/incompatibilistic afe or the inductive/probabilistic argument for the more modest claim that there are evils that actually exist in the world that make it unlikely that God exists.

The first carries with it the enormous burden of having to show that God and evil are logically incompatible, the second carries a far more modest burden.

Which one are you defending?
 
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