Gog & Magog

[Douggg]

In fact the same "Armageddon feast" of Eze 39:17-20 is also mentioned in Eze 39:4 and in Rev 19:17-21.

No, it is not.

Ezek 39:4 is the feast on Gog's army.
Ezek 39:11-16 is the burial of Gog's army.
Gog's army in the grave before...
Ezek 39:17-20 Armageddon feast.


Ezek 39:9-10 Following Gog/Magog are 7 years of burning the spoils of Gog's army.

Same 7 years as Dan 9:27, confirmation by the Antichrist.
Same 7 years cycle as in Deut 31:9-13
Same 7 years as in Rev 12:6 + 12:14

That precede Armageddon.

 

[Douggg]

It makes sense to you that there are 3 wars. I see this as a 4th reference to the same war of G&M that takes place in Armageddon. What compels you to distinguish between them?

Ezek 38-39:16 Gog/Magog try to destroy Israel. Fail.
then 7 years later
Ezek 39-17-20 Armageddon feast.
Ezel 39- 21-29 Jesus having returned to earth to reign and rule a thousand years
Rev 20:4-6 The martyred saints resurrected to rule with Jesus the thousand years
Rev 20:7-9 After the thousand years, Satan released, and the Gog/Magog nations try again to destroy Israel. Fail again.

 

[DavidPT]

If you were to say no-one could have understood Ezekiel 39 back in days prior to the New Testament, then I am in total agreement. But the caveat is that they weren't supposed to.

I'm not suggesting anyone back in Ezekiel's day understood these particular prophecies, but that doesn't prove they didn't think Gog and his multitude were meant in verses 17-20. Who else would they have thought it was being applied to if not them?

As an example, that in the OT not everything in a chapter is in strict chronological order every time, take Zechariah 14, for instance.

Since verses 12-15 come after verses 7-11, does that then mean, when these events are being fulfilled, verses 14:12-15 chronologically follow verses 7-11?

 

[DavidPT]

Ezek 38-39:16 Gog/Magog try to destroy Israel. Fail.
then 7 years later
Ezek 39-17-20 Armageddon feast.
Ezel 39- 21-29 Jesus having returned to earth to reign and rule a thousand years
Rev 20:4-6 The martyred saints resurrected to rule with Jesus the thousand years
Rev 20:7-9 After the thousand years, Satan released, and the Gog/Magog nations try again to destroy Israel. Fail again.

Ezekiel 39:7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.


Ezekiel 39:21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.
22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.


Assuming 2 battles in Ezekiel 39, and that if the Lord already made His holy name known in the midst of His people Israel, via the first battle, why would the Lord need to execute His judgment yet again, via another battle, so the house of Israel shall know that He is the LORD their God from that day and forward? Why didn't they figure that out the first time around, assuming there are 2 battles here?


and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel(Ezekiel 39:7)---And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them(Ezekiel 39:21).

Would not the latter(Ezekiel 39:21) be the reason the heathen shall know that He is the LORD, the Holy One in Israel(Ezekiel 39:7)? If not, why not?

Ezekiel 39:8 Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord GOD; this is the day whereof I have spoken.

Assuming 2 battles in Ezekiel 39, why would the first battle be---Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord GOD; this is the day whereof I have spoken---rather than the 2nd battle?

 

[Douggg]

I'm not suggesting anyone back in Ezekiel's day understood these particular prophecies, but that doesn't prove they didn't think Gog and his multitude were meant in verses 17-20. Who else would they have thought it was being applied to if not them?

Why does it matter what different people thought before the NT, regarding the interpretation of Ezekiel 39?

Are you citing some ancient (pre-NT) commentary on Ezekiel 39?

 

[Andrewn]

Ezek 39:4 is the feast on Gog's army.
Ezek 39:9-10 Following Gog/Magog are 7 years of burning the spoils of Gog's army.
Ezek 39:11-16 is the burial of Gog's army. Gog's army in the grave before.
Ezek 39:17-20 Armageddon feast.

You read passages sequentially. I think prophets repeat the same facts for emphasis. So, we reach different conclusions. For example, you end up counting 3 wars. Another member counts 5 wars.

Same 7 years as in Rev 12:6 + 12:14 That precede Armageddon.

It's the same thing in these 2 verses, you read them sequentially and count them twice. I'm sure the revelator is mentioning twice the same period of 3 1/2 years: The woman was given 2 wings. She flew to a place in the wilderness that God had prepared. There she was cared for for 3 1/2 years.

6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where God had prepared a place to care for her for 1,260 days.

14 But she was given two wings like those of a great eagle so she could fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness. There she would be cared for and protected from the dragon for a time, times, and half a time.

 

[Douggg]

Assuming 2 battles in Ezekiel 39, and that if the Lord already made His holy name known in the midst of His people Israel, via the first battle, why would the Lord need to execute His judgment yet again, via another battle, so the house of Israel shall know that He is the LORD their God from that day and forward? Why didn't they figure that out the first time around, assuming there are 2 battles here?

Ezek 39:7 - The current situation in Israel is that many Jews are secular and not religious. That will change when Gog/Magog takes place. Not polluting His name anymore and the heathen knowing that
He is the God of Israel - goes back to Ezek 36. In that chapter it informs that because the Jews were taken captivity out of the land it made it look to the heathen like God was unable to keep it from happening - in essence polluting God's holy name, of being inable. I mentioned this to you before in a previous post.

Ezek 39:21 - Is after Armageddon (Ezek 39:17-20) and Jesus Himself speaking in the text having just executed judgment on them (the nations, called the heathen) who tried to make war on him. It is in Rev 19:17;21.

The difference between Ezek 39:7 and Ezek 39:22 as far as Israel knowing God is that in Ezek 39:7, the non-religous will come to believe in God (but not believe Jesus is He), and become fervent about God. In their excitement they will make the colossal mistake of thinking the Antichrist, the prince who shall come following Gog/Magog, is the messiah. Which begins the 7 years following Gog/Magog. Which they will think they have entered the messianic age.

Halfway through that 7 years, the Jews, Israel, will realize their colossal mistake, and turn to Jesus. Who rescues them in Zechariah 14, at the time of Armageddon. Which then, from that day forward that all will know that Jesus is the Lord their God, who will be here on earth to rule and reign the 1000 years of Rev 20.

 

[Douggg]

You read passages sequentially. I think prophets repeat the same facts for emphasis. So, we reach different conclusions. For example, you end up counting 3 wars. Another member counts 5 wars.

It is not a repeat. Gog is not mentioned in Ezek 39:17-29.

 

[DavidPT]

Ezekiel 39:8 Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord GOD; this is the day whereof I have spoken.

Revelation 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.


and it is done, saith the Lord GOD(Ezekiel 39:8)--and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done(Revelation 16:17).


If not, why not? That assuming one sees my point here.

 

[Douggg]

It's the same thing in these 2 verses, you read them sequentially and count them twice. I'm sure the revelator is mentioning twice the same period of 3 1/2 years: The woman was given 2 wings. She flew to a place in the wilderness that God had prepared. There she was cared for for 3 1/2 years.

No they are not the same period.

There is not "3 1/2 years" term in Revelation, nor anywhere else in bible prophecy. Many people use that term in bible prophecy discussion, but it is not in the text, and is generally misleading because the 1260 days, the 42 months, the time, times, half time are not exact to the day equivalents to each other.

In Rev 12:6, the woman flees into the wilderness during that time, because the AoD will have been setup on day 1185 (75 days before the end of the 1260 days). The two witnesses are killed on day 1260. They rise on day 1263 1/2. The seventh trumpet sounds. There is then the war in the second heaven. And Satan with his angels are cast down to earth having a time, times, half time left.

From Dan 12:12, day 2520-1335 days is when the AoD will be setup - day 1185.

 

[DavidPT]

It's the same thing in these 2 verses, you read them sequentially and count them twice. I'm sure the revelator is mentioning twice the same period of 3 1/2 years: The woman was given 2 wings. She flew to a place in the wilderness that God had prepared. There she was cared for for 3 1/2 years.

6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where God had prepared a place to care for her for 1,260 days.

14 But she was given two wings like those of a great eagle so she could fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness. There she would be cared for and protected from the dragon for a time, times, and half a time.

Between these two passages there is the war in heaven. And after the war, satan is cast unto the earth, where he then sets out to persecute the woman who brought forth the manchild. If you are correct here, that places this war in heaven, then satan getting cast unto the earth, prior to both verse 6 and verse 14.

Is the reason she flees to the wilderness in verse 6, the same reason she flees to the wilderness in verse 14?

 

[Douggg]

Ezekiel 39:8 Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord GOD; this is the day whereof I have spoken.

Goes back to Ezekiel 38:8, 38:16, God speaking about the latter days and latter years when Gog/Magog will take place

Revelation 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

and it is done, saith the Lord GOD(Ezekiel 39:8)--and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done(Revelation 16:17).

You are making the wrong connection with Rev 16:17. The 7th vial of God's wrath poured out is at the last of the Great Tribulation. If you look at my chart, I show it at the very bottom, lower right. Gog/Magog on the other hand, is at the beginning, upper left. You can click on the chart to get a zoomed in view.

 

[Douggg]

Between these two passages there is the war in heaven. And after the war, satan is cast unto the earth, where he then sets out to persecute the woman who brought forth the manchild. If you are correct here, that places this war in heaven, then satan getting cast unto the earth, prior to both verse 6 and verse 14.

You are drawing the wrong conclusion by not recognizing in Rev 12, it is referring to several heavens.

In Rev 12:4, Satan and his angels are banned from the third heaven. That happened eons ago.

In Rev 12:7-9, Satan and his angels are cast down to earth from the second heaven (where Satan and his angels currently can operate from) . Second heaven in not stated in the text, but is implied. In Rev 12:12, it refers to "heavens' plural, indicating several heavens.

Satan and his angels, when they are cast down to earth, it is the Babylon the Great is fallen is fallen, as God starts dismantling Satan's kingdom, when the seventh trumpet sounds. I have it on my chart, in my previous post.

 

[Douggg]

Is the reason she flees to the wilderness in verse 6, the same reason she flees to the wilderness in verse 14?

In verse 6, the Jews, Israel, start fleeing into the wilderness, as the AoD will have been setup on day 1185.
The two witnesses will be battling with the beast, as they flee, giving them cover by way of the plagues they call down.

Once the two witnesses are killed by the beast, it will be harder for the Jews to flee. In Rev 12:14, the Jews continue to flee, so that part of Israel is in the wilderness - where God protects them A portion though get stuck, unable to flee, and are the ones in Rev 12:17 who Satan, the beast, and false prophet persecute - until Jesus returns to rescue them in Zechariah 14.

 

[Douggg]

You read passages sequentially. I think prophets repeat the same facts for emphasis. So, we reach different conclusions. For example, you end up counting 3 wars. Another member counts 5 wars.

I don't speak for other members here.

There is however another popular view that before Gog/Magog, there is a war called the Psalms 93 war. Bill Salus is one who advocates that view, if you want to look him up. The Psalms 93 war is based upon a separate war on Israel by nations having a common border with Israel, as opposed to the Gog/Magog nations listed in Ezekiel 38 who do not.

I personally don't think there will be a separate Psalms 93 war.
__________________________________________________________

You are not reading the passages with any regards to the time frames stated in the text, nor in relation to the multitude of other end times prophecies involved such as the great tribulation.

 

[HARK!]

The return of all of the house of Israel does not take place until after Jesus's return.

Is is in Ezekiel 39:28, Jesus Himself speaking in the text. And in Matthew 24:31, also Jesus Himself speaking in the text.

(CLV) Jer 23:5
Behold, the days are coming, averring is Yahweh, When I will set up for David a Righteous Sprout, A King (Yahshua) Who will reign and proceed effectively, Who will establish right judgment and justice in the land.

(CLV) Jer 23:6
In His days Judah shall be saved, And Israel, it shall tabernacle in serenity (Peace there is none in Israel at this time), And this is His Name by which one shall call Him: Yahweh, our Righteousness.

(CLV) Jer 23:7
Therefore, behold, the days are coming, averring is Yahweh, when they shall not say any longer, As Yahweh lives, Who brought the sons of Israel up from the land of Egypt,

(CLV) Jer 23:8
but rather, As Yahweh lives, Who brought up and Who brought out the seed of the house of Israel from the land of the north and from all the lands where I had driven them away; and they will dwell on their own ground. (This hasn't happened yet.)

Rabbi Yerachmiel Yishaya Mintzberg,rabbi of Likova, Russia (c. 1902)

רבי ירחמיאל ישעי מינצבערג זצ"ל ליקאווע

One must not join them in any manner, and it is proper to stay far from them and their people.

Even if His Majesty the Sultan of Turkey, or all the rulers of all the countries, decide to give permission to the people of G-d to go to their land and their inheritance, the land of their fathers, the Holy Land, as the second redemption proceeded in the time of Ezra – we say that if the redemption does not come from the Almighty

Redeemer Himself, as in the Exodus from Egypt, then G-d does not desire it, and this is not the path to the true redemption, promised by the prophets. And I think all Jewish sages who have strong and unshakable faith in the Torah and tradition would say the same thing. We would not even consider such a scenario a temporary redemption or respite from exile. Its negative aspect would outweigh its positive, for the Sages of the Talmud have taught us and foretold to us that the future redemption will not be like the redemption under Ezra, through worldly decisions of rulers. (Daas Harabbonim, letter 7)

The Rabbis Speak Out

 

[Andrewn]

Between these two passages there is the war in heaven. And after the war, satan is cast unto the earth, where he then sets out to persecute the woman who brought forth the manchild. If you are correct here, that places this war in heaven, then satan getting cast unto the earth, prior to both verse 6 and verse 14.

Yes, I think this reference to Lord Jesus' crucifixion and His defeat of the powers. Before this defeat, he was able to appear before God as in the book of Job.

Since, therefore, the children share flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared the same things, so that through death He might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the Devil (Hebrews 2:14).

Is the reason she flees to the wilderness in verse 6, the same reason she flees to the wilderness in verse 14?

Yes, she had to flee to the wilderness bec the devil was attacking the earth and the sea.