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Based on Hebrews 1:1-2 also. I agree.Based on Acts 2:16-21 and 2 Peter 3:3-4, the timing of the last days is basically from the first coming of Christ up until the second coming of Christ. In 2 Peter 3:3-4 it indicates that scoffers scoff at the promise of His second coming during the last days right up until the day He actually returns. Well, they can't scoff anymore after the day He comes again, right? So, the last day of the last days will be the day on which Christs returns.
I agree, aside from the part about the city of Jerusalem on earth being rearranged and the whole area changed for Christ's temple and throne (which is an interpretation which I admit is based on a number of scriptures - but I'm not sure that those scriptures are meant to be taken literally, or even whether they may all be talking about the return of Christ rather than the previous return from Babylon and rebuilding of the temple etc) .The camp of the saints was not even destroyed. There was no battle declared, but many were consumed by fire from heaven.
I know that is what you accept. Just saying that the camp of the saints was not destroyed in Revelation 20. Jerusalem was not destroyed in Revelation 19.
The 6th Seal is when Jesus rearranges the city of Jerusalem and the whole area is changed for His temple and throne.
Yes there is an earthquake in the 7th vial. But Jerusalem is not destroyed in battle, nor does it necessarily mean the city was destroyed, but the empire that Satan built, which Jerusalem was just a single part.
You have proved this point. I agree.I don't see any distinction made in scripture between the church and the church victorious:
This is the typical argument against Amillennialism. I disagree with you and favor the Amillennialist view that Satan is already bound. Yes, there is a lot of evil and deception in the world. Still, if you read ancient Christian writers such as St Athanasius' "On the Incarnation of the Word," you realize that Christ has accomplished a lot and that the world has changed after his incarnation.It does not say he is bound so that he cannot stop the spread of the gospel. It says he will be bound so that he cannot deceive the nations. . . . The nations are being deceived and have always been deceived since the day the serpent deceived mankind in the garden.
I explained in post #32 the reason that Eze 38-39 fit better w/ the war described in Rev 19.I beg your pardon then I misread your first sentence in your answer post to DavidPT. I realize now it's because you do not have Ezekiel 38-39 and Revelation 20 together.
It was mostly Jews who slaughtered other Jews in 70 AD. Josephus described the Romans as agents of God just as the prophets called Nebuchadnezzar.Obviously, that undeniably proves that it is not even remotely possible that Ezekiel 38-39 can be involving 70 AD. Because if it is it would mean Gog and his multitude are meaning the Romans, and that the house of Israel is meaning the unbelieving Jews that were slaughtered in 70 AD. Except Ezekiel 38-39 records zero about any Jews being slaughtered. It is Gog and his multitude that are slaughtered, which clearly didn't happen to the Romans in 70 AD, meaning what happens to Gog and his multitude. Or am I missing something here? Are some of these interpreters implying that Gog and his multitude are meaning unbelieving Jews in 70 AD? If yes, who are meaning the Romans in Ezekiel 38-39 then? It was the Romans that slaughtered the unbelieving Jews, was it not?
In both cases, the attackers suffered the most. Christians, who were persecuted, escaped from Jerusalem.How anyone can remotely think Ezekiel 38-39 can fit 70 AD, defies logic. Even if we try and make Gog and his multitude mean the unbelieving Jews in 70 AD, it still defies logic. Because in 70 AD it was the ones being attacked that suffered the most casualties. In Ezekiel 38-39 it is the ones doing the attacking that suffer the most casualties. By making Gog and multitude mean unbelieving Jews in 70 AD is to make them being the attackers of themselves.
A related question is whether the wars in Rev 19 and Rev 20 are the same. The war in Rev 19 ends w/ the beast & the false prophet in the LOF and Satan bound for 1000 years. The war in Rev 20 ends w/ Satan being thrown in the LOF and Christ coming for judgment.
If the ending of 2 wars is not the same the wars may not be the same: one at the beginning of the millennium and the other at the end of the millennium. Eze 38 & 39 and the 7 years you describe seem to logically fit with the first war. Do Gog and Magog attack twice? I guess this is possible if we understand the second war spiritually.
Perhaps this is describing the Jewish Wars at the beginning of the millennium.
Show me any scripture which teaches that the last day involves more than 24 hours. I am certain that you can't do it. So, my answer to your question is no.
Based on Acts 2:16-21 and 2 Peter 3:3-4, the timing of the last days is basically from the first coming of Christ up until the second coming of Christ. In 2 Peter 3:3-4 it indicates that scoffers scoff at the promise of His second coming during the last days right up until the day He actually returns. Well, they can't scoff anymore after the day He comes again, right? So, the last day of the last days will be the day on which Christs returns. There is no basis for claiming that the last days will extend beyond that.
One other thing. If the last day represented an era of time rather than 24 hours then would you try to say that each of the last days (plural) represent an era of time as well? I highly doubt it. So, where is the consistency in that view? It's not there.
The final sentence in Revelation 19:21: "And all the birds were filled from their flesh" is closing the prophecy with a repeat of what had been said earlier.
I believe it's symbolic language being used (metaphor), but that again marks out the re-release of Satan in Revelation 20 and the destruction of the armies of the Gog-Magog nations by fire from heaven as referring to something separate from Revelation 19.
Yeah, I forgot to mention that one, but you're right about that. That passage indicates that the last days had already begun long ago just like Acts 2:16-21 does.Based on Hebrews 1:1-2 also. I agree.
The issue there is that you are interpreting the last day as an era of time but none of the rest of the days as eras of time. That's a lack of consistency. This means you're interpreting all of the last days as literal 24 hour days EXCEPT for the last day. You don't see an issue there? I certainly do.If there are last days and a last day, and that the last day is an era of time greater than 24 hours, I don't see the issue, because clearly Christ would have returned at this point. Which means that obviously puts an end to any scoffing.
Huh? You are making something simple very convoluted. Why? The onus is on you to show that "the last day" could refer to a long period of time rather than an actual 24 hour day during which at some point Christ returns and the dead are raised (John 6:40). Can you do that? Nothing you're saying here is helping your case as far as I'm concerned.Let's suppose that the last day is a literal 24 hour day or less. And let's suppose it begins at 11:05 am and concludes at 10 am the following morning.
Per this example, would not this be an era of time since it is involving around 23 hours? Until it is 10 am the following morning, would we not still be in the last days in the meantime? When 11:05 am arrives will there still be anyone scoffing about His coming? Probably not, right? And if we are still in the last days until 23 hours later, this alone proves that the scoffing doesn't continue throughout the entire era of time involving the last days, the fact the last day is also involving the last days, and that they would no longer be scoffing about His coming once He has returned.
I don't understand what you're asking here. Can you explain? Again, what I think you need to be doing instead is explaining how the last day can possibly last more than 24 hours? What evidence do you have to support that theory?Let's simply apply this same logic to, if the last day were to consist of more than 24 hours. Why would they still be scoffing during that last day if the last day involves Christ having returned at 11:05 am?
Say what now? Please explain what you are talking about here. Can you please just give some evidence to show how the last day could possibly be something other than a literal 24 hour day? If you have any, that is. You are the one with the unique view here, so you need to be able to back it up. A vast majority of people, whether Premil or Amil, understand the last day to be the literal last 24 hour day of the world as we know it during which Christ returns and the dead are raised (He said He would raise the dead in Christ up on the last day - John 6:40,44,54). That's the most obvious understanding of "the last day" and needs no explanation. Your view, however, needs to be explained and you need to provide some kind of scriptural support to back it up.The question is, can the last day consist of an era of time longer than 24 hours? When the real question should be instead, is it even logical that the last day can consist of 24 hours or less?
Help me understand what you were trying to say here. You said you believe it's symbolic language being used in Revelation 19 (and Ezekiel 39 as well?), but you somehow conclude that it can't be the same as what is described in Revelation 20. Why not? Since the cause of the destruction is only described symbolically in Revelation 19 while being described literally in Revelation 20, why can't they be speaking of the same event? The literal method of destruction is not given in Revelation 19 since it is only described symbolically there, so why can't the literal method of destruction be by fire in Revelation 19?Very interesting point about the ending of the Gog-Magog war at the close of Revelation 20 not being the same as the ending of the Gog-Magog war described in Ezekiel 39 and Revelation 20:
Ezekiel 39
17 And you, son of man, So says the Lord Jehovah. Speak to the bird of every wing, and to every beast of the field: Gather yourselves and come; gather yourselves from all around to My sacrifice that I sacrifice for you, a great sacrifice on the mountains of Israel, so that you may eat flesh and drink blood.
18 You shall eat the flesh of the mighty and drink the blood of the rulers of the earth, of rams, lambs, goats, and bulls, all of them fatlings of Bashan.
19 And you shall eat fat until you are full, and drink blood until you are drunk, of My sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.
20 And you shall be filled at My table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, all the men of war, says the Lord Jehovah.
21 And I will set My glory among the nations, and all the nations shall see My judgments which I have done, and My hand that I have laid on them.
22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.
Revelation 19
17 And I saw one angel standing in the sun. And he cried with a great voice, saying to all the birds that fly in mid-heaven, Come and gather together to the supper of the great God,
18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of commanders, and the flesh of strong ones, and the flesh of horses, and those sitting on them, and the flesh of all, both free and slave, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth and their armies, being gathered to make war against Him who sat on the horse, and against His army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet doing signs before it, (by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast), and those who had worshiped his image. The two were thrown alive into the Lake of Fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the rest were slain by the sword of Him who sat on the horse, it proceeding out of His mouth. And all the birds were filled from their flesh.
The final sentence in Revelation 19:21: "And all the birds were filled from their flesh" is closing the prophecy with a repeat of what had been said earlier.
I believe it's symbolic language being used (metaphor), but that again marks out the re-release of Satan in Revelation 20 and the destruction of the armies of the Gog-Magog nations by fire from heaven as referring to something separate from Revelation 19.
It all depends on what you think the binding of Satan entails. Obviously, Amils and Premils disagree on that. While what you said here about Satan is true, what is said in scriptures like these about him is also true:And there is also the fact that nowhere in scripture are we told that Satan was bound at Calvary. In fact, scripture teaches us the exact opposite:
Not only does Revelation 12:9 call Satan "the great dragon" and "the old serpent called Devil, and Satan, who deceives the whole world", but Jesus called Satan "the ruler of this world" and the New Testament calls him "the prince of the power of the air who works in the sons of disobedience", who we are told will give the beast and false prophet his seat, power and great authority (Revelation Chapter 13). The saints are warned to be weary of his wiles and to resist him, and to put on the full armor of God because "we do not wrestle against flesh and blood" ( John 12:31; 1 Peter 5:8-9; Ephesians 6:11-12; Revelation 2:9-10 & Revelation 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 2:18; James 4:7 ).
Ephesians 2:2 tells us about Satan's influence over the societies of this world, this Age.
Revelation Chapters 12-13 portray this current status quo as spanning the entire present Age and culminating in the beast's war against the saints in Revelation Chapter 13 (see Revelation 13:7).
To me birds eating flesh etc is prophetic language being used to describe the death as a result of the Day of the LORD coming upon flesh, in this case the Gog-Magog nations. I'm very cautious about interpreting that language literally. Death is certainly being pointed to, and if we bear in mind the kind of battles that used to take place in the ancient past where there was a mass slaughter of the vanquished armies by the victor armies with the dead bodies lying round all over the place and being food for vultures and hyenas, then it's easy to understand why that sort of imagery is being used to describe the total judgment/annihilation of the enemy armies.Are you proposing the same in regards to Ezekiel 39? In that account it also involves becoming bird food. But it goes a step further, it indicates it takes 7 months to bury their remains, which at this point is consisting of bones. What about their flesh? Obviously, feasting birds don't eat human bones, but they do eat human flesh, though.
Because what you say above implies that Christ's destruction of the power of Satan will only last a thousand years (or x thousand years) but the devil will be able at the close of the thousand years (or x thousand years) to regain the power over death that Christ's death and resurrection caused him to lose.It all depends on what you think the binding of Satan entails. Obviously, Amils and Premils disagree on that. While what you said here about Satan is true, what is said in scriptures like these about him is also true:
Hebrews 2:14 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil— 15 and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death.
1 John 3:8 The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work.
Why is it that Premils are quick to point out the influence that Satan does have in NT times, but never say anything about the power that was taken away from him during these times, as referenced in the scriptures I showed above?
There are a few things that should be taken note of as far as the differences between Revelation 19 and 20 are concerned.Help me understand what you were trying to say here. You said you believe it's symbolic language being used in Revelation 19 (and Ezekiel 39 as well?), but you somehow conclude that it can't be the same as what is described in Revelation 20. Why not? Since the cause of the destruction is only described symbolically in Revelation 19 while being described literally in Revelation 20, why can't they be speaking of the same event? The literal method of destruction is not given in Revelation 19 since it is only described symbolically there, so why can't the literal method of destruction be by fire in Revelation 19?
To me birds eating flesh etc is prophetic language being used to describe the death as a result of the Day of the LORD coming upon flesh, in this case the Gog-Magog nations. I'm very cautious about interpreting that language literally. Death is certainly being pointed to, and if we bear in mind the kind of battles that used to take place in the ancient past where there was a mass slaughter of the vanquished armies by the victor armies with the dead bodies lying round all over the place and being food for vultures and hyenas, then it's easy to understand why that sort of imagery is being used to describe the total judgment/annihilation of the enemy armies.
So by the same token 7 months burying the dead may also be another way of describing the totality of it. But I know that I don't understand Ezekiel further than just a little, so this is not my engraved in stone opinion.
Do you mean 'secular' because I don't know what circular logic means?Yes, this is what I meant.
This is circular logic.
What's wrong with your picture? I'd say plenty!Let's see if I got this right?
In the last days, God has poured out His Spirit on all flesh. So in these last days, just before the GWT Judgment, God's Spirit is now indwelling all flesh, numbering as the sand of the sea.
Then Satan suddenly pops up out of his prison and is promptly able to deceives all these Spirit led nations, to follow after Gog of Magog, and to war against the Jews Revelation 20:7
And this is after thesse nations have first beaten all their weapons into plowshares so as to learn war no more. Will the nations now beat their plowshares back into swords to go after Israel?
Is this the kingdom Christ hands over to his Father 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 ?
What's wrong with this picture?
What's wrong with your picture? I'd say plenty!
Even though satan is bound during the rebellion, sin and rebellion will still remain albeit on a smaller scale than we have in this age. Prophet Zechariah gave us a picture of life on earth in those days when the Lord is ruling from Jerusalem.
Zech 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
Those who survive and enter the millennium are referred to as the nations, ie their country. This is to differentiate them from the saints who have already received immortality at that time. Verse 17 prescribes the punishment that will be meted out to those who refuse to come to Jerusalem to worship the Lord.
Again, speaking about the longevity that mortals will enjoy in those days (like the time of Adam when men lived hundreds of years) Isaiah 65:20 says that the minimum age that someone would die will be 100 years, and such a person will not only be regarded as a child but also accursed as a sinner. So the doctrine that every mortal will believe and live in holiness does not reflect what the Bible taught.
Finally, those in the 'beloved city' Rev 20:9 that satan and his gang surround are not exclusively Jews but the beloved of God - Jews and Gentile saints.
1 Kings 14:11 Him that dieth of Jeroboam in the city shall the dogs eat; and him that dieth in the field shall the fowls of the air eat: for the LORD hath spoken it.
What about an example like above? And there are more examples like that in the OT, so I only chose this as a random example. Should we not take that in a literal sense either? But if we should, why would something similar in the OT, Ezekiel 39:17-20 in this case, not also be taken in a literal sense? Just because one event might be involving ages ago, and another event in our future still, this doesn't take away from the fact that in the 21st century there is still such things as feasting birds. And that if it takes 7 months to bury the remains, why even mention an amount of time this takes to accomplish if none of this is involving anything literal, such as literally burying the remains of Gog and his multitude.
I realize that you haven't fully made up your mind about some of these things, so in the meantime, food for thought if nothing else.
What is your source of the term "Olam Haba"? I think you are using a term created by the rabbi's of Judaism who do not respect the information found in the New Testament. The Jews (Judaism) hold to a general view of the messianic age followed by the world to come (their Olam Haba term).In the sixth seal, Rev 6:12-14, the sky vanishes like a rolled up scroll, and every mountain and island are removed from its place. This catastrophic episode is a worldly transition from the this present evil age to the Olam Haba (world to come)
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