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God's will

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Forest said:
Those three can be true at the same time if God's will is to allow us to make some of our own choices.

I think the question you are asking about how all three can be true at the same time was what I was asking earlier...God does indeed "work(s) all things after the cousel of His own will...

"Why could it not be the case that free-will is more important to Him, than to force His will on people? (election)"

free-will not meaning we have the ability to thwart God's will, but only that God allows us to make some choices.

Good day, Forest

That is not election, you have failed to understand the Gospel thus misunderstood election.


Peace to u,

Bill
 
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cygnusx1

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Forest said:
I didn't see the quote earlier...do you have one available?

Thanks.:)

wrong thread ........... it was just below ........:sorry:

http://www.christianforums.com/t2272188-12-questions-for-calvinists.html

''I will say that God does in a manner reveal two wills in Scripture. For instance, He commands "thou shalt not kill (murder)" yet He also orders the Israelites to "utterly destroy" the men, women and children of nations.

John Piper as an
excellent article speaking directly to the issues you bring up.'' frumanchu
 
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Did God really love the whole world so much that he gave his only begotten son that whoseover believed in him should not persih but have everlasting life?

Apparently he didn't, that must have been one of those secret lies Jesus told that slipped into the New Testament by mistake!

If we accept election, as it is taught, as a sound Biblical doctrine, and if election is a sound Biblical doctrine, based on a rock solid foundation, of sound Biblical truth then we might as well rip out 80% of the New Testament, especially all those places where it says God's will is that all be saved...
 
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seekingpurity047

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PentecostalPreacher said:
Did God really love the whole world so much that he gave his only begotten son that whoseover believed in him should not persih but have everlasting life?

Apparently he didn't, that must have been one of those secret lies Jesus told that slipped into the New Testament by mistake!

If we accept election, as it is taught, as a sound Biblical doctrine, and if election is a sound Biblical doctrine, based on a rock solid foundation, of sound Biblical truth then we might as well rip out 80% of the New Testament, especially all those places where it says God's will is that all be saved...

If it is actually God's will that all be saved... then why isn't everyone saved? Does God's will NOT get accomplished or something? Well... then I guess we might as well rape God of His power, as it appears that man is more powerful than God (in your perspective).

Romans 9:19-24

19You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" 21Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use? 22What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory-- 24even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

Why would Paul even comtemplating asking the Romans if someone can possibly resist His will? Well.. Paul is clearly implying that NOBODY can resist His will. Not all are saved... and if it God's will that all be saved... then we have a serious issue here. Rape God of His power... that's the problem.

Now... let's go to the verses John 3:16-18

16"For God so loved the world,[a] that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

Read v18 to get the full context. People aren't going to believe. And those people who aren't going to believe are ALREADY comdemned.... interesting use of words. But if there isn't an elect... then nobody can already be truly condemned... for NOBODY would be condemned already... God didn't send Jesus Christ to die for every single person on the face of the earth.

There times in two verses Jesus says "world". Now... is he talking about the same world every time? That's the core question. Answer, if you'd like.

Randy
 
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CoffeeSwirls

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I take this from a creation-fall-redemption viewpoint. God created all and it was very good. The fall has marred all of creation. God will redeem all of creation. Notice that not once did I mention any people. That is because not all people will be saved. There will be a new heaven and earth, but the justice of God will not be denied. Those outside the atonement will not be spared. But the world will be saved. We must lose a man-centered view of creation before we can rightly understand the fall and redemption.

It is easy to pluck a few verses from the NT and believe either in Universalism or Open Theism, but the Bible teaches neither of those heresies.
 
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Let's try a little classroom project that will solve the entire problem, alright children.

Now we've already discussed John 3:16 many times but apparently you all think Jesus never said that, so we'll juts take our little black marker pens and mark through that vesre, that's right children mark through it, Jesus never said that, so it doesn't count.

And let's not forget to also mark through Romans 10:13, and 1st Timothy 2:1-5, and 2nd Peter 3:9.

And since we've determined we're going to mark out all the verses concering Gods integrity toi stand faithful to his covenant promises, we might as well just go right ahead and make the whole process as easy as possible, children, put down your little black markers.

Now then take your bibles in your hands, have you got them, alright then, ready, begin ripping out all the pages, that's right everyone of them children, rip them all out, go ahead, everyone, don't forget any, and to make the project an even better success, you might as well go ahead and burn every one of them, because if even one verse in your Bible isn't applicable, then none of them are applicable, and none of your doctrine is worth believing, and certainly not worth accepting.....


In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and rthe word was God....

Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my word shall never pass away......

Jesus Christ (THE WORD) the same yesterday, today, and forever.....

You can call Jesus a liar, you can call The Apostles writings a lie, I won't blasphem the son of God in that manner, and I will certainly not refer to the author of two thirds of the New testament as a deceiver.

When God said all he meant each and everyone, when The Apostle Paul said whosoever, he meant anyone, and everyone, anywhere and everywhere.

Me thinks you folks have been dubiously decieved by the theological blabberings of denominational baffoons who know absolutely nothing of the word of God, men and women with fat heads filled with secular head knowledge who have no heart knowledge of Jesus Christ whatsoever.

Let God be true, and every man a liar, let the word of God ever be established as Gods eternal unchanging truth and the deceptions of denominational deceivers be set aside, and forever be rejected as lies from the heart of satan.....
 
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justinstout

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There is so much that the Lord has done in my life and so much that He has taught me that I couldn't even begin to summarize it all, but there are some things that stand out. As I see it, there are three keys to everything the Lord has done in my life, and I believe these three things are a must in every believer's life if he wants to succeed.

First, you must have a revelation of God's unconditional love and grace for you personally. This happened for me instantly on March 23, 1968. I was overwhelmed by God's love for me. Instantly, I intuitively knew God was good and He loved me separate from my performance. There was a severe conflict between my head and my heart for a number of years until I began to gain some understanding through the scriptures. But I experienced God's unconditional love for me in a tangible way and I couldn't or didn't want to get away from it.

Second, you must make an absolute and unconditional surrender to God. This happened to me the same night God revealed His love to me. I believe that anyone who gets a real glimpse of God's infinite love for him will just naturally submit to Him. I don't see how you could do anything else. The only explanation I can see, why people live their lives independent of God is because they don't know what they are missing. They have never really come face to face with God and all His love for them. When they do, they will never be the same.

The third essential for a successful Christian life is to know God's will. How can we ever expect to accomplish God's will for our lives if we don't know what it is? This is a crucial element of the Christian life that many believers are unsure about.

In my own life, I can say without a doubt, that knowing I'm in the center of God's will has been like an anchor to me. We all have storms that come against us, but if our anchors hold, we'll still be in the same place when the storm passes over. Jamie and I have been through things that would have shipwrecked us if we hadn't known we were exactly where God wanted us to be.

From the very beginning, after the Lord revealed His awesome love to me, I began to experience God's leading in my life. He definitely led me to quit college, which in 1968 meant an automatic, all expenses paid, trip to Vietnam. I could have buckled under the pressure at times, but I had an all consuming assurance that I was directly in the center of God's will. That kept me in peace. I knew God's infinite love for me would only will good for my life and I didn't have to understand it. I just trusted it. What a blessing!

Jeremiah 29:11 says, "For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end." The Lord actually spoke this through the prophet Jeremiah to the children of Israel who had been taken captives by Nebuchadnezzar. They were in a terrible situation. Their homeland had been destroyed. The temple had been defiled and they were captives in a foreign land. Yet the Lord had good things in store for them. Despite their disobedience, God wanted to prosper them. That's true for every one of us too. In spite of what we've done or not done, the Lord has a perfect plan for every one of our lives. Our future is so bright we have to squint to look at it. All we have to do is believe.

So, how do we discover God's will for our lives? The answer is found in the first two things I discussed. We have to know experientially, the goodness of God and make an absolute surrender to Him, and then God's direction for our lives will come effortlessly.

Romans 12:1-2 says it this way, "I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, [which is] your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God."

These verses are actually saying that God's will for every one of us is to be totally surrendered to Him as a living sacrifice. Then and only then, as we renew our minds, we will prove what His direction is for our lives. The word "prove" means, "to make manifest to the physical senses." If we become a living sacrifice and renew our minds, it's impossible to miss God's direction. He wants to use us more than we want to be used. The biggest obstacle is our unusableness.

God's primary will for my life isn't to be a minister of the Gospel. It is to be completely yielded to Him. The way He chooses to use me is to preach the Gospel. There is a progression of events here. I am to be committed to the Lord as a living sacrifice, then transformed by the renewing of my mind, which comes through the Word of God, and then I experience God's direction for my vocation. If I preach the Gospel without being yielded to Him, I'm not fulfilling His will.

I believe that people do sometimes discover God's vocation for them. Their gifts lead them in that direction, but if they aren't totally committed to the Lord and if they haven't aligned their thinking with God's Word, they are likely to ruin the whole thing. I think this is what has happened with some very visible media ministers. They entered into God's vocation for them, but they lacked the character that comes from being totally surrendered to Christ, and their own success destroyed them.

In many cases, I believe it is actually the mercy of God that prevents us from discovering His vocation for us before we make a total commitment to Him. Trying to get godly results in our own strength is frustrating to say the least and most of the time it is down right painful. He is more concerned about us than He is about using us. He doesn't want us to try and serve Him in our own ability. We need to come to the end of ourselves to come to the beginning of Him. That's done through this absolute surrender.

As we yield ourselves completely to the Lord, He will mold us into who He wants us to be, and then He will use us. God wants to use us more than we want to be used. We should never pray, "God use me." Instead we should pray, "God make me usable." The moment we become usable, the Lord will put us to work.

A ship builder never builds a ship to leave in dry dock. Manufacturers don't make cars just to sit around. The Lord doesn't work on us and then never use us. Our focus shouldn't be on seeking the Lord to use us, but rather on making ourselves usable. We don't have to kick the doors open. When the time is right, the Lord will make a way.

Notice that Romans 12:1-2 states two things that we have to do before we prove the perfect will of God. Verse one says that we have to make a total commitment of our lives to Him and verse two says we have to renew our minds. I believe it is possible to be committed to the Lord, yet fail to renew your mind through God's Word. This will keep you from experiencing His best for you.

Verse two says we will be transformed by the renewing of our minds. The Greek word for "transformed" is "METAMORPHOO," which is the word from which we get our English word "metamorphosis." That describes the change that takes place when a worm spins a cocoon and then emerges as a butterfly. If we want that type of transformation in our lives, we have to change the way we think. It's insanity to expect different results without changing our thinking because "For as he thinketh in his heart, so [is] he. . . " (Pro. 23:7).

The renewing of our minds is nothing more than thinking like God thinks. That happens as we study God's Word and take heed to act accordingly. God's Word contains His thoughts. We exchange our opinions for His opinions as revealed in His Word. As we think differently, we will act differently and will begin to experience God's best in every area of our lives. That will certainly include having our steps directed by God.

Psalm 37:4 says, "Delight thyself also in the LORD; and he shall give thee the desires of thine heart." That doesn't just mean that the Lord will just give us whatever we want. He's saying that when we delight ourselves in Him, God will put His desires in our hearts. That's essentially what Romans 12:1-2 is saying. A person who is truly delighting in the Lord is surrendered to Him and once his mind has been renewed, his desires change. He will see things differently. God's wisdom changes our desires to His desires because we recognize that His ways are better. Once this process has begun, then we can basically do what we want to do because our desires are now ordered by the Lord.

I was taught in the church I grew up in, to do the opposite of what I wanted to do and that would probably be what the Lord wanted. That's only true when a person is totally carnal. We can come into a relationship with the Lord through absolute surrender where our hearts have been changed and channeled to flow in the same direction as the Lord's. We may not obtain perfection in this life concerning this, but we certainly don't have to have our desires always oppose God's either. When we delight in Him, He puts His desires into our hearts.

Certainly all of us have witnessed or experienced people whose desires were not godly before they got saved. Yet after salvation, they completely changed. They no longer loved the things they once did. God put His desires in their hearts. That's the way it should be.

So, once a person has made a total commitment of his life to the Lord and started renewing his mind through studying God's Word, he can basically do what he wants to do. That's one way to discern God's will. What do you want to do?

I must caution you that this is a dangerous principle for anyone who isn't really committed to God and seeking Him with all his heart. If you aren't in that place, you should get there soon. Until then, you can't be led by your desires. Once you are truly delighting yourself in the Lord, you can let your heart lead you. I've done that many times and found it to be God's leading.

Finding God's will should be a very important issue for every Christian. We are even commanded not to be ignorant, "but understanding what the will of the Lord is" (Eph. 5:17). It's not hard. It just takes commitment. There is a lot of information in God's Word about this. He wants you to experience His best.




(written by AWM)
 
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