God's ''will'' and ''plan'' doesn't exist.

[jomark]

hey, i'm new here, and i'm going through some pretty intense times.

Christians often have a mindset that God knows the future, I don't limit God's power, but I do pay close attention to our free will in conjunction to it. I mean, if God does know the future he could tell me something i will do, right? But don't i always have the free will to go directly against that? Or commit suicide right after he tells me the answer?

So is our culture right in saying there is a set plan for us that we need to go crazy about wondering if we are choosing the right thing? We feel like we are in a gigantic maze full of turns, and if we don't make the right ones, then we're screwed when it comes to the end. Many of these turns are moral rights and wrongs, and those are very clearly defined to what we should make. Ah! but there are many many other decisions in our lives too...where to go to college, who am i going to marry, what city should i go to for my job, what should be my job...etc. I DO believe God has predestined our talents and gifts, to which he has a plan that we should sharpen those things and use them to the fullest for him. So that if our motive is totally pure, and we pray over these things for him to open doors to spread the love he has filled in us to where ever we choose to go we won't be doing "the wrong thing".

I mean, if we believe that some decision is going to be deeply benificial to our life, how can God say that we shouldn't do that? Is not the deciding factor our motive that we feel in us? Can I choose wrong out of the hope to grow in Christ and build my relationship with Him so I can reflect it to the world?
---------------------------------------------------
That's the impersonal way of looking at it. This is my experience that i'm struggling with. (you don't have to read more as long as you read the top, the rest of this is just free to give you a peak into my life)

There's this girl at school that we have helped eachother through really hard times, and we started liking eachother. At the time I do not think I was right with God and my motive for her. (not that all i wanted was sex, but yes, i loved talking to her and holding her hand) I don't think God liked how he put us together and we weren't starting on the right foot. She noticed this too, so she said that she doesn't feel God in it, so she said we should go back to being good friends again. I recently have been praying a lot about everything i'm being introduced with, and I believe God has totally broken me down just to build me up again into a new person so I can view our relationship in a new way. I have just been getting ideas to what i should be doing to show this girl what she means to me and how much change i have experienced. But still, i have these thoughts of...SHE IS IT!! I WANT TO BUILD TOWARDS GOD DAY IN AND DAY OUT WITH THIS GIRL!! and some times its SHES NOT THE ONE FOR ME!! I think the deciding factor is if i choose or not to follow through with the things i want to do for her. Like God is giving me this unknowing feeling so the decision sits in my hands and I will just have to decide my life through knowing that if i really believe my thoughts i will follow them through with my actions.

anyways...there's some good meat to chew on, sorry it's such a long read.

 

[Alecto]

God does not play dice- Albert Einstein

 

[jomark]

i don't believe einstein was a theist, though he did make statements about God.

how does that statement respond to the topic? i don't want to find my interpretation of its application, i just want to hear your own.

 

[jomark]

well right now i think i've affirmed that i'm just a guy that doubts everything in life. i doubt God and he's as solid as anything...so doubting this and having concern to ask God about it is just normal for me i guess.

now i just gotta do my homework He's given me

 

[gaijin178]

I am not sure if you would like a non-christian response but I know what you are going through.

I have to tell you about something that i have learned the hard way. Listen closely....it's all just a dream.

If you want something that will better your spiritual life or your personal life, go out and get it!

 

[Blackguard_]

Christians often have a mindset that God knows the future,

God is not a fortune teller. The awe at prohesy is not the awe you have of a gypsy with a crystal ball, but awe at the great work of the sovereign and all-mighty God.

Revelations 17
15And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the harlot sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.
16And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the harlot, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
17For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

I don't limit God's power, but I do pay close attention to our free will in conjunction to it.

We do not have free-will. Free will is a heresy called Pelagianism. Free-will is only popular (i believe) becasue it is a convienent answer to the Problem of Evil.

Go read Luther's "Bondage of the Will". But to sum up,
1. We are enslaved to sin as Luther puts it, or Total Depravity as a Calvinist would say. This is the "fallen nature of Man". In other words, if our will is enslaved to sin and can do nothing but sin, it is absurd to say the will is "free".
2. having faith in Jesus of your free-will makes faith a work, and salvation is not by works as paul says. And here Paul says faith itslef is a gift from God.

Ehesians 2
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

If you have faith of your own will, it is something to boast about. You are saved becasue you are superior, even if slightly so, to any non-Christian as you had the good sense to believe while they did not. And you are saved by your own wise work in having faith in Christ.

Sure, you being a sinner and incapable of being perfect may mean you have done 1% by having faith and Christ/Grace brings the other 99%, but what use is that 99% if you do not go that 1%? God's grace ultimately rests on you on this view and is not a soverign choice and makes salvation a work and the Election a fraud.

I mean, if God does know the future he could tell me something i will do, right? But don't i always have the free will to go directly against that? Or commit suicide right after he tells me the answer?

no, you cannot fight God's will.

Romans 9
9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son. 10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; 11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth 12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. 14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy. 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might show my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

So is our culture right in saying there is a set plan for us that we need to go crazy about wondering if we are choosing the right thing?

Sort of, if there is no free will you do not need to go crazy becasue whatever happens is God's plan.

Ah! but there are many many other decisions in our lives too...where to go to college, who am i going to marry, what city should i go to for my job, what should be my job...etc.

Yes, hearing from God on that stuff can be hard. I have a lot of Evangelical friends for whom this stuff comes easily, but I find it hard to clearly hear God on these matters.

I DO believe God has predestined our talents and gifts, to which he has a plan that we should sharpen those things and use them to the fullest for him.

So, the all-knowing God's plan is to let ignorant, foolish Man decide how best to use his gifts?

So that if our motive is totally pure, and we pray over these things for him to open doors to spread the love he has filled in us to where ever we choose to go we won't be doing "the wrong thing".

It won't be wrong in terms of sin, but it won't be the fullest use of your life.

I mean, if we believe that some decision is going to be deeply benificial to our life, how can God say that we shouldn't do that?

Because 1. you might be wrong the decision will be beneficial, and 2, God has something better.

Can I choose wrong out of the hope to grow in Christ and build my relationship with Him so I can reflect it to the world?

It won't lead you to sin no, but your life will not be as beneficial to the kingdom of God as it could be if you rely on your own wisdom to make decisions.

 

[Illuminatus]

God does not play dice- Albert Einstein

"Einstein, stop telling God what to do." - Niels Bohr

 

[jomark]

so no free will? I'm not saying that i see the options and I reject it because i want to do my own thing, i'm doing what i hope God wants me to do. How do i pass an opportunity by, or a person by, if i want to do what God wants of me and feel what i have is the best option? Like i could go on the road with a friend and use my talent of music to my fullest, but I know that is not what God wants of me, so I don't keep that option.

I just keep asking God to ease or provide me with the knowledge and tools to go after this girl. AAAAAAH! i just don't know. I know yes means yes and no means no, and all else is from the evil one, but that is for moral judgement. if i say yes, pursue this girl, i may not be being patient (but i am a very patient kid, and i never feel like this towards anyone) but if i say no, i may be passing by the greatest relationship that God has in store for me. i'm just in a place of being wrong either way.

Why create someone soooooo filled with knowledge on life and love and what marriage should be, and when he's filled up with it, and someone catches his attention like no other girl has ever, why would God expect him to pass this girl by????

 

[Blackguard_]

"Einstein, stop telling God what to do." - Niels Bohr

I thought Einstien said "God does not play dice with the universe" in response to Heisenberg's uncertainity principle, who responded with something like "who are you to know what God does?"

so no free will?

yep.

I'm not saying that i see the options and I reject it because i want to do my own thing, i'm doing what i hope God wants me to do. How do i pass an opportunity by, or a person by, if i want to do what God wants of me and feel what i have is the best option?

"the best option" because "this is what God is calling me to do" or becasue "I think this is best"? God knows better than you whats best right?
There might be a better option down the road for one, and God simply hasn't called you to do everything you want to do.

I just keep asking God to ease or provide me with the knowledge and tools to go after this girl.

That sounds like you want the girl, not that you think she is meant for you (although the two should go together). You should pray about whether she is meant for you first, and start that stuff once you have a solid answer.

if i say yes, pursue this girl, i may not be being patient (but i am a very patient kid, and i never feel like this towards anyone) but if i say no, i may be passing by the greatest relationship that God has in store for me. i'm just in a place of being wrong either way.

If its meant to be, it will happen.

Romans 11:29
"for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.'

And it would probably be better to say "no" until you are sure this is the girl you are
supposed to marry.
1. If you say, "yes" and she is not the one, things might get very, very, bad.
2. If you say "no", worst case scenario is regret, and if she is meant for you, you will eventually have her (Romans 11:29) Or do you think God would revoke the gift of the woman he has for you?

Why create someone soooooo filled with knowledge on life and love and what marriage should be, and when he's filled up with it, and someone catches his attention like no other girl has ever, why would God expect him to pass this girl by????

As a test. Are you waiting for the woman God wants for you or doing your own will? Not saying that's what it is, I am not you and do not know your situation, but that is what it could be.

 

[Illuminatus]

I thought Einstien said "God does not play dice with the universe" in response to Heisenberg's uncertainity principle, who responded with something like "who are you to know what God does?"

It could be. It's a long time since I read that quote, so I may have subconsciously twisted it.

 

[jomark]

why do you even give advice if we have no free will? do you pray at all?

anyways...

okay, so right now i have things i want to tell her and be to her, and I think that God has layed these things on me. If I don't do them, I am not becoming the person I should be, and if I do do them....hmm...i guess i never thought of that...if i do do them all i get is taken in or rejected. i guess where doing this will lead me in the right direction, and God will reveal to me where that direction is so I might as well do this instead of sit back and not be able to let God say a yes or no, which it seems like i'm in that position now, and i'm trying to make that yes or no, which shouldn't be the case!! WOW!! ok...i think i've cleared things up!! wow...i'm really amazed...
THANK YOU ALL!!

 

[Blackguard_]

why do you even give advice if we have no free will?

Becasue God uses people. For example, using evangelists to show someone the Gospel when he could have just showed it to the person out of the blue.

do you pray at all?

yes.

okay, so right now i have things i want to tell her and be to her, and I think that God has layed these things on me. If I don't do them, I am not becoming the person I should be, and if I do do them....hmm...i guess i never thought of that...if i do do them all i get is taken in or rejected. i guess where doing this will lead me in the right direction, and God will reveal to me where that direction is so I might as well do this instead of sit back and not be able to let God say a yes or no, which it seems like i'm in that position now, and i'm trying to make that yes or no, which shouldn't be the case!! WOW!! ok...i think i've cleared things up!! wow...i'm really amazed...

Well, if you really believe this girl is meant for you you should go for it. But be careful of making God say yes and no through circumstances, especially in your case as romanticism might blind you to a "no" from God.

 

[tgg]

Blackguard,

WHere did you get this ridiculous idea that there is no such thing as 'free will'? We ARE free to do what we want, to believe in what we want and act however we want.

God is not Adolf Hitler. Free will gives us the right to discriminate against people we don't like, and this is where the trouble with religions are.

How many people have killed, stolen, defamed, lied, and coveted material things in the name of God/Jesus?

If we had no free will it would be impossible for us to do any of these things in the first place.


tgg

 

[Blackguard_]

WHere did you get this ridiculous idea that there is no such thing as 'free will'?

Didn't you read my post #6 on this thread? What specificially is the problem?

We ARE free to do what we want, to believe in what we want and act however we want.

And what you want to do is an act of will, which is not free. An un-free will is not being forced to do something against your will.

God is not Adolf Hitler.

Right, he does not force you to things against your will. He changes your will. He's more like a puppet master.

Free will gives us the right to discriminate against people we don't like, and this is where the trouble with religions are.

How does free will give you the right to disriminate?

How many people have killed, stolen, defamed, lied, and coveted material things in the name of God/Jesus?

Certs me. What's your point here?

If we had no free will it would be impossible for us to do any of these things in the first place.

No it wouldn't. We have a will, and God controls it to will the things you list.

 

[joethehoe]

not true but

 

[gaijin178]

I thought that Einstein said this: The religion of the future will be a cosmic religion. The religion which is based on experience, which refuses dogmatism. If there's any religion that would cope the scientific needs it will be Buddhism.

 

[Fledge]

Free will is a heresy called Pelagianism

Not quite. Pelagianism is the belief that man can, entirely on his own ability/strength, save himself. This obviously requires free will, but just because free will can be dragged into a heresy doesn't mean that free will itself is heretical.

1. We are enslaved to sin as Luther puts it, or Total Depravity as a Calvinist would say. This is the "fallen nature of Man". In other words, if our will is enslaved to sin and can do nothing but sin, it is absurd to say the will is "free".
2. having faith in Jesus of your free-will makes faith a work, and salvation is not by works as paul says. And here Paul says faith itslef is a gift from God.

Ehesians 2
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

If you have faith of your own will, it is something to boast about. You are saved becasue you are superior, even if slightly so, to any non-Christian as you had the good sense to believe while they did not. And you are saved by your own wise work in having faith in Christ.

Sure, you being a sinner and incapable of being perfect may mean you have done 1% by having faith and Christ/Grace brings the other 99%, but what use is that 99% if you do not go that 1%? God's grace ultimately rests on you on this view and is not a soverign choice and makes salvation a work and the Election a fraud.

This is pretty good as far as it goes, but I think you stop short of something very important. I would agree that in his fallen state, man is incapable of voluntarily following God's commands (including the command to repent). Now, some of His commands will be followed anyway, but this is due to other factors that affect human behavior, such as civil laws, cultural pressures, and things like that.

So how are people saved? By grace. Where does this grace come from? Faith. But where does this "saving faith" come from? From God Himself, as it says in Ephesians. "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:"

BUT what happens now that someone is saved? Is there still that complete enslavement to sin, the utter inability to do anything that would "please" (sorry, but it's the best word I could think of) God? I think not, and a quick look at Romans 5 will show why.

6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him [the "him" is Jesus], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin

So now that we are saved, free will kicks in. The "new man", the one that we are in Christ, desires to obey the will of God, but the "old man", the one we were before salvation, desires the exact opposite (Romans 8:5-8). So now we are faced with a constant struggle, choosing between that which pleases God, and that which displeases Him. (A more thorough look at this topic can be found in Romans 7).

no, you cannot fight God's will.

I have to disagree with you on this point, and reference Acts 7:51, "Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye." Now, ultimately, everything will glorify God, even the actions of those who deliberately seek to dishonor Him. So we are capable of resisting the will of God, although even our resistance will ultimately bring Him glory. (For another example of free-will used to oppose the direct command of God, read the book of Jonah.)

Sort of, if there is no free will you do not need to go crazy becasue whatever happens is God's plan.

I really dislike that kind of statement, because it can be used to excuse some truly horrible things. I could go on a killing spree, and then say that it must have been part of God's plan, or else I would have been incapable of doing it.

So, the all-knowing God's plan is to let ignorant, foolish Man decide how best to use his gifts?

Close. I would be more inclined to say that God's plan is to encourage the aforementioned ignorant, foolish men (of whom I am one) to use their gifts in accordance with God's desires/plans for their lives.

 

[ThinkerThinker]

hey, i'm new here, and i'm going through some pretty intense times.

Christians often have a mindset that God knows the future, I don't limit God's power, but I do pay close attention to our free will in conjunction to it.

You should accept that whatever you think God’s plan is for you life is all just your guesses, hopes and sometimes delusions. If this was not so you would not have been in such torment. What you need to accept is that He knows this is the case, and chooses to not relieve you from it. The big question is why, and the answer is that this doubt and inner struggle is exactly what He wants you to experience. Not to be cruel but for the value it has in shaping your personality, wisdom and the direction of your life. It is difficult but what you need to keep hold of is that you will come out of it a better person and within the will of God. You have to believe only one thing and that is that ultimately you will find the place God wants you to find. If it is with the girl then it will be so, even if it is twenty years from now and she went of with someone else. The only ‘wrong’ decision you can make, the only one, is the one that make you stop believing God is in control of your life. Then all the rules change. Until then you have try to be honest with yourself and do what your conscience tells you. And most importantly, do not fear making mistakes because they too take you to experiences that might not be pleasant but most certainly has value in obtaining wisdom and understanding.

p.

 

[Ryan Gates]

Ummm well to answer part of your questoin where you said what if God told me the future than I commited suicide right afterwards. It wouldnt matter cuz God would tell you "Well if you commit sucicide your future is hell" or if you werent going to he would tell you something that I cannot and neither can any other man on earth. But in the Bible it says "God knows the End from the Beginning" God is the Alpah and omega (beginning and the end) so basicly no matter what you do it wont matter becuase God can always change the future but like in the Book of Revelation when it talks about the end times and what not I mean you cant say well "What if I kill the antichrist" wouldnt matter cuz God could allow the devil to raise up another man to be the new Antichrist. If you read the Bible you would know what I mean about the antichrist. Not to say you dont but if you do you will understand it more.

 

[ThinkerThinker]

... God could allow the devil to raise up another man to be the new Antichrist.

Talk about God actively participating to allow evil to flourish