God's seal

[TPop]

And who is under threat of this? Unsaved, Born Again Christians, or both?

Peace and Blessings

 

[daq]

Circumcision a sign and a seal of righteousness by faith, in uncircumcision.....
430 years before the law of Moses.......................
Rom 4:10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Therefore, indeed, circumcision is a seal, even according to Paul as you have shown. However the imputation of righteousness unto Abraham, because of his belief in Gen 15:6, was not the end-all. The following passage bears this out:

James 2:17-23 KJV
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: [Gen 15:6] and he was called the Friend of God.

When or where did Abraham offer up his son upon the altar? That was not until a number of years later when he was tested in Gen 22, and with this trial or testing the scripture in the above passage states that this is when Gen 15:6 was fulfilled.

Every babe, child, son, or heir is therefore destined for an appointed time of testing, wherein the child, son, or heir becomes an adult in the kingdom, tried, tested, and found to be true in the time appointed of the Father. Both Paul and the author of Hebrews also teach this. The following statement from Paul is a concluding remark continuing from the discourse in the previous chapter, Gal 3, and should be reckoned as such, regardless of the unfortunate location of the man-made chapter break.

Galatians 4:1-2 KJV
1 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;
2 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.

And again the Epistle to the Hebrews teaches the same quoting from the Prophet Habakkuk.

Hebrews 10:35-39 KJV
35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.
36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. [Hab 2:3]
38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. [Hab 2:4]
39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

True faith-belief therefore has not fully come, (Gal 3:23-25), until the time of testing in the time appointed of the Father. Moreover the Prophet says the following in one of the verse references in the Hebrews passage above.

Habakkuk 2:3 KJV
3 For the vision is yet for an appointed time, but at the end it shall speak, and not lie: though it tarry, wait for it; because it will surely come, it will not tarry.

 

[Gary K]

The law of faith vs law of works,,,,,Covenants plural. The natural seed vs spirtual seed. But I do not wish to go around and around. As You appear to be unable or unwilling to speak to this aspect of scripture in Paul's writing. The "times" of the Gentiles (uncircumcision) is in the New covenant dismissal of the fleshy and worldly commands. these were shadows and patterns of heavenly things...... We had nothing to hope for while the fleshy commands stood. Now we do......all do in the preaching of the Gospel in Christ Jesus. We could not hear until they were sent.
Good day to you.

Ralliann,

I owe you an apology. I was really hard on you and have no right to be so as I cannot know your heart. I'm sorry for my judgmental attitude. Another user here pointed out to me how unfair I was being and he was right on the money.

I prayed about this last night and God caused me to understand just how unfair I was with you. I am truly sorry for my attitude.

 

[ralliann]

Ralliann,

I owe you an apology. I was really hard on you and have no right to be so as I cannot know your heart. I'm sorry for my judgmental attitude. Another user here pointed out to me how unfair I was being and he was right on the money.

I prayed about this last night and God caused me to understand just how unfair I was with you. I am truly sorry for my attitude.

Thank you. I apologize for my part in this as well. We can listen to one another and agree to disagree. Even when it get's heated (and I have as well) We can agree to disagree on many things. Blessings to you.

 

[ralliann]

Therefore, indeed, circumcision is a seal, even according to Paul as you have shown. However the imputation of righteousness unto Abraham, because of his belief in Gen 15:6, was not the end-all. The following passage bears this out:

James 2:17-23 KJV
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: [Gen 15:6] and he was called the Friend of God.
When or where did Abraham offer up his son upon the altar? That was not until a number of years later when he was tested in Gen 22, and with this trial or testing the scripture in the above passage states that this is when Gen 15:6 was fulfilled.

Hello Daq, Thanks for your response.
I am not quite sure what you mean, or what your point of Galatians is. But I do see a difference between us in the above.
I agree the trying of faith made Abraham's faith "complete" or "filled". But I think we differ in context of fulfilled there.
I believe this has to do with the oath God swore makes the promises made to Abraham and his "seed" in Gen 12 immutable. It fulfilled IN ISAAC the covenant is established, and the promises of Gen 12 includes all the seed in the oath.
This is when Abraham seen Christ's day....
Ge 22:14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen.
All families of the earth........Includes the children of uncircumcision, Abe being also uncircumcised. At the time this was spoken. But made sure to all the seed by the oath.
Ge 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
The oath.....
A confirmation.....
Genesis 22:16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:
17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

Every babe, child, son, or heir is therefore destined for an appointed time of testing, wherein the child, son, or heir becomes an adult in the kingdom, tried, tested, and found to be true in the time appointed of the Father. Both Paul and the author of Hebrews also teach this. The following statement from Paul is a concluding remark continuing from the discourse in the previous chapter, Gal 3, and should be reckoned as such, regardless of the unfortunate location of the man-made chapter break.

Galatians 4:1-2 KJV
1 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;
2 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.

And again the Epistle to the Hebrews teaches the same quoting from the Prophet Habakkuk.

Hebrews 10:35-39 KJV
35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.
36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. [Hab 2:3]
38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. [Hab 2:4]
39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

True faith-belief therefore has not fully come, (Gal 3:23-25), until the time of testing in the time appointed of the Father. Moreover the Prophet says the following in one of the verse references in the Hebrews passage above.

This is what I am not sure about. When God sware his oath it established the covenant promises going back to Genesis 12.

Habakkuk 2:3 KJV
3 For the vision is yet for an appointed time, but at the end it shall speak, and not lie: though it tarry, wait for it; because it will surely come, it will not tarry.

Again I am not sure what you are saying.
Ro 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Heb 11:18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:

Faith in the resurrection from the dead is present from the time of Genesis 15, when God tells Abraham He will die. That covenant was to the 4th generation of his seed.

 

[daq]

Hello Daq, Thanks for your response.
I am not quite sure what you mean, or what your point of Galatians is. But I do see a difference between us in the above.
I agree the trying of faith made Abraham's faith "complete" or "filled". But I think we differ in context of fulfilled there.
I believe this has to do with the oath God swore makes the promises made to Abraham and his "seed" in Gen 12 immutable. It fulfilled IN ISAAC the covenant is established, and the promises of Gen 12 includes all the seed in the oath.
This is when Abraham seen Christ's day....
Ge 22:14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen.
All families of the earth........Includes the children of uncircumcision, Abe being also uncircumcised. At the time this was spoken. But made sure to all the seed by the oath.
Ge 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
The oath.....
A confirmation.....
Genesis 22:16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:
17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.




This is what I am not sure about. When God sware his oath it established the covenant promises going back to Genesis 12.

Again I am not sure what you are saying.
Ro 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Heb 11:18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:

Faith in the resurrection from the dead is present from the time of Genesis 15, when God tells Abraham He will die. That covenant was to the 4th generation of his seed.

Did Abraham stay uncircumcised? No.
Count the years:

Genesis 16:15-16 KJV
15 And Hagar bare Abram a son: and Abram called his son's name, which Hagar bare, Ishmael.
16 And Abram was fourscore and six years old, when Hagar bare Ishmael to Abram.

Genesis 17:24-25 KJV
24 And Abraham was ninety years old and nine, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.
25 And Ishmael his son was thirteen years old, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.

Abraham was 86 years old when Yishmael was born.
Abraham was 99 when he was circumcised and Yishmael was 13.
Abraham was therefore 85 years old in Genesis 15.

From Genesis 15 to the circumcision of Abraham was 14 years.

2 Corinthians 12:1-5 ASV
1 I must needs glory, though it is not expedient; but I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
2 I know a man in Christ, fourteen years ago (whether in the body, I know not; or whether out of the body, I know not; God knoweth), such a one caught up even to the third heaven.
3 And I know such a man (whether in the body, or apart from the body, I know not; God knoweth),
4 how that he was caught up into Paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
5 On behalf of such a one will I glory: but on mine own behalf I will not glory, save in my weaknesses.

Galatians 2:1-2 ASV
1 Then after the space of fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, taking Titus also with me.
2 And I went up by revelation; and I laid before them the gospel which I preach among the Gentiles but privately before them who were of repute, lest by any means I should be running, or had run, in vain.

These things are related, (not mere coincidences), and concern the Gospel that Paul preaches.

 

[ralliann]

Did Abraham stay uncircumcised? No.
Count the years:

Genesis 16:15-16 KJV
15 And Hagar bare Abram a son: and Abram called his son's name, which Hagar bare, Ishmael.
16 And Abram was fourscore and six years old, when Hagar bare Ishmael to Abram.

Genesis 17:24-25 KJV
24 And Abraham was ninety years old and nine, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.
25 And Ishmael his son was thirteen years old, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.

Abraham was 86 years old when Yishmael was born.
Abraham was 99 when he was circumcised and Yishmael was 13.
Abraham was therefore 85 years old in Genesis 15.

From Genesis 15 to the circumcision of Abraham was 14 years.

The OATH (Confirmation) came years later........ The Lord made Gen 12 IMMUTABLE. Meaning the Lord would not repent of it......
For surety to all the seed..... When God spoke the promise, He was not circumcised, God sware an oath making that promise FIRM, SURE, IMMUTABLE, and the seal and sign was circumcision.
Ga 3:15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man’s covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
Ga 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.


Abraham was uncircumcised here....
Ga 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

KINGS Free, not slaves.... In Isaac shall thy seed be called
Ge 17:6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
Ge 17:16 And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her.

Heir with him of the same promise
Heb 11:9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

Gen 35: 10 And God said unto him, Thy name is Jacob: thy name shall not be called any more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name: and he called his name Israel.
11 And God said unto him, I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins;

1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

 

[daq]

The OATH (Confirmation) came years later........ The Lord made Gen 12 IMMUTABLE. Meaning the Lord would not repent of it......
For surety to all the seed..... When God spoke the promise, He was not circumcised, God sware an oath making that promise FIRM, SURE, IMMUTABLE, and the seal and sign was circumcision.
Ga 3:15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man’s covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
Ga 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.


Abraham was uncircumcised here....
Ga 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

KINGS Free, not slaves.... In Isaac shall thy seed be called
Ge 17:6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
Ge 17:16 And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her.

Heir with him of the same promise
Heb 11:9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

Gen 35: 10 And God said unto him, Thy name is Jacob: thy name shall not be called any more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name: and he called his name Israel.
11 And God said unto him, I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins;

1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

If we say that Paul's discourse in 2 Cor 12:1-5 does not apply to us then it is tantamount to saying that he is simply boasting: for if it is not applicable to us then it is indeed merely boasting, for it would have no impact on our understanding of the Gospel which he preaches, being irrelevant to our walk. However, if it does apply to us, then it is indeed a critical aspect of the Gospel which Paul preaches, and we all know what he says about those who preach any other gospel. Moreover he explicitly states that he "must needs" share this information because otherwise it would just be boasting, (1 Cor 12:1a, "I must needs glory"), so then, if he absolutely needs to share the vision and the teaching from it with the reader, it must surely be essential to the Gospel which he preaches and therefore critical to our understanding of the Gospel.

Galatians 1:15-16 KJV
15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

Paul says he was separated from his mother's womb: that is obviously not physical birth because he was a Pharisee of Pharisees up until the intervention of Meshiah on the road to Damascus. His mother's womb is therefore symbolic, Yerushalem of above, as taught in Gal 4, our mother covenant. Timothy is also referred to in the same manner in the place where we read that Timothy had known the sacred writings or sacred scriptures from a babe, in 2 Tim 3:15, and that also cannot be speaking of natural child birth according to the flesh.

For those entering into the Land of Promise, the Land flowing with milk and honey, when their days have been multiplied as the days of the heavens upon the earth: fourteen years amount to two Yobel cycles, ninety-eight turnings, and the babe is circumcised in the eighth day, ninety-nine turnings. Thus the babe in Meshiah, in the milk of the Word, is a hundred turnings, as in Yeshayah the Prophet, in the new heavens and new earth of the new creation of Elohim, (Isa 6:17-25).

 

[TPop]

If we say that Paul's discourse in 2 Cor 12:1-5 does not apply to us then it is tantamount to saying that he is simply boasting: for if it is not applicable to us then it is indeed merely boasting, for it would have no impact on our understanding of the Gospel which he preaches, being irrelevant to our walk. However, if it does apply to us, then it is indeed a critical aspect of the Gospel which Paul preaches, and we all know what he says about those who preach any other gospel. Moreover he explicitly states that he "must needs" share this information because otherwise it would just be boasting, (1 Cor 12:1a, "I must needs glory"), so then, if he absolutely needs to share the vision and the teaching from it with the reader, it must surely be essential to the Gospel which he preaches and therefore critical to our understanding of the Gospel.

Galatians 1:15-16 KJV
15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

Paul says he was separated from his mother's womb: that is obviously not physical birth because he was a Pharisee of Pharisees up until the intervention of Meshiah on the road to Damascus. His mother's womb is therefore symbolic, Yerushalem of above, as taught in Gal 4, our mother covenant. Timothy is also referred to in the same manner in the place where we read that Timothy had known the sacred writings or sacred scriptures from a babe, in 2 Tim 3:15, and that also cannot be speaking of natural child birth according to the flesh.

For those entering into the Land of Promise, the Land flowing with milk and honey, when their days have been multiplied as the days of the heavens upon the earth: fourteen years amount to two Yobel cycles, ninety-eight turnings, and the babe is circumcised in the eighth day, ninety-nine turnings. Thus the babe in Meshiah, in the milk of the Word, is a hundred turnings, as in Yeshayah the Prophet, in the new heavens and new earth of the new creation of Elohim, (Isa 6:17-25).

Hello

I do not understand what you are saying about Timothy? Timothy was taught scripture from his earliest years. Paul exhorts him not to stop there. Because scripture knowledge does not save. And now Pauls says Timothy is wise in salvation, which adds further weight and clarity to what he was taught as a child.

Or are you saying something different from that? Thanks much!

Peace and Blessings.