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God didn't rest one day a week is what I was talking about. Otherwise we agree.Actually, He did.
God commanded Israel only to observe the seventh-day rest, but God commanded all people everywhere to find true rest in Christ:
“Come to Me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest…and you will find rest for your souls.” -- (Matthew 11:28-29).
Yes, Christ died to bring true rest to the entire world, a rest which the Israelites rejected.
Perhaps I mixed the OP up with someone else in my haste due to time constraints. I extend my apologies to the OP.How long does it take to understand some here have no desire to learn and only try an force others to take their opinion. It's very clear to me the OP isn't open to discussion or the fact they could be wrong.
Isn't the rest people will have in the Messianic age a physical rest as in peace?The 'rest' is used in more than one sense. It is the rest we have in Christ, and it is the rest the world will have during the Messianic age.
My sincerest apologies. I got you mixed up with someone else maybe because I was responding to the quoted in your post.How did you arrive at that conclusion?
The OP has been in open discussion in this thread throughout its entire five pages.
The idea Paul is presenting for me is disputable matters and not the illustration he uses. So many people get hung up on an illustration as being the subject. They're blinded so to speak. That's why Jesus spoke in parables (illustrations). Words are pictures.Paul is referring to observing special days to the Lord in general. God does not require us to observe special days, including Sabbath days. But He does appreciate us setting aside time for Him. This is why Paul said:
He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. -- (Romans 14:4-6).
The first two verses of Romans 14 explains the context of what Paul is talking about, and it’s not a day of fasting:
“Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables.” -- (Romans 14:1-2).
Paul is addressing a dispute over whether or not to eat meat, a dispute over which foods should be eaten, and not a dispute over fasting, which is the complete opposite.
Paul in Romans 14 is addressing controversial issues regarding the Jewish law, issues concerning unclean foods and observing special days.
Just because something was sanctified as holy does not mean it is required forever:
The tabernacle shall be sanctified by My glory. And I will sanctify the tabernacle of the congregation, and the altar: I will sanctify also both Aaron and his sons, to minister to Me in the priest's office. -- (Exodus 29:43-44).
The tabernacle was sanctified, the alter was sanctified, Aron and his sons were sanctified, the seventh day was sanctified, but sanctification does not mean forever. Even the nation of Israel was sanctified as God's holy people, but not any more.
Days aren't food. Days are included in Paul's discussion. Paul is addressing the issues of Acts 15.I considered this. But what I see is the whole issue seems to have to do with eating, not sabbath days.
Paul appears to be addressing those who argue that people should only eat certain kinds of foods (v.v. 2-3), while also addressing those who think fasting should be designated for certain days (v.v. 4-6). That's what I see here.
I don't see any proof that Paul is saying the Sabbath is no longer applicable to Christians.
Show me one text in the writings of Paul where he specifically says that keeping the Sabbath day holy doesn't matter anymore, and I will change my position. The word, "Sabbath," does not appear in Romans 14:5-6. Therefore, you cannot use this as a proof text to validate your belief that Paul was saying keeping the Sabbath day holy didn't matter anymore.Paul says keeping holy days doesn't matter. So indeed it is Paul who says it doesn't matter and not a 3d party. Since both Paul and some pastor say the same thing, who is the liar? The premise of keeping the sabbath is required is necessary to make some pastor a liar.
You're hung up on a specific word. Do you give more importance to a certain day? If so what would that day be? Does Paul mean something else?Show me one text in the writings of Paul where he specifically says that keeping the Sabbath day holy doesn't matter anymore, and I will change my position. The word, "Sabbath," does not appear in Romans 14:4-6. Therefore, you cannot use this as a proof text to validate your belief that Paul was saying keeping the Sabbath day holy didn't matter anymore.
Based on the context, it is more reasonable to conclude that Paul was referring to days people designated for fasting, not sabbaths.
The problem with you and people who think like you is you don't know how to do proper exegesis. And if you do, you certainly aren't showing it. Instead, you read meaning into the Bible that isn't there in order to support your beliefs.
Peter spoke of people like you: 2 Peter 3:16 (NKJV) "as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures."
Yes, because the same word used in the Bible can have different applications depending on the context, and thus it doesn't always mean the same thing throughout. You should know the importance of identifying and defining keywords before drawing a conclusion from a biblical text.You're hung up on a specific word.
Isn't the rest people will have in the Messianic age a physical rest as in peace?
Okay cool.God didn't rest one day a week is what I was talking about. Otherwise we agree.
No problem.My sincerest apologies. I got you mixed up with someone else maybe because I was responding to the quoted in your post.
Where do you see fasting in those verses? Fasting is never mentioned.I considered this. But what I see is the whole issue seems to have to do with eating, not sabbath days.
Paul appears to be addressing those who argue that people should only eat certain kinds of foods (v.v. 2-3), while also addressing those who think fasting should be designated for certain days (v.v. 4-6). That's what I see here.
The proof is in the entirety of Paul's writings, not just one verse.I don't see any proof that Paul is saying the Sabbath is no longer applicable to Christians.
A careful reading of Romans 14 shows an emphasis on food, not sabbath days.Where do you see fasting in those verses? Fasting is never mentioned.
Like I said, Paul is addressing a dispute over what foods can be eaten, and not a dispute over fasting, which is the complete opposite:
“Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables.” -- (Romans 14:1-2).
It's a dispute about eating, and not about fasting.
A careful reading of Romans 14 shows an emphasis on food, not sabbath days.
It does not make sense that Paul, in speaking of the observance of a day in connection to eating (v. 6), would suddenly imply that the Sabbath is irrelevant to believers. The Sabbath is not the subject; food is.
Romans 14:6 (NKJV) “He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks.”
In verse 6 we see what appears to be a parallel, showing a link between the observance of days and eating. What I see Paul saying here is people are free to eat or not to eat on certain days, and that none should judge the other by these things. Whether you choose to eat or not to eat, it does not add to or take anything away from your salvation in Christ.
We find evidence elsewhere in the Scriptures of a belief in fasting on certain days:
Isaiah 58:5 (NKJV) “Is it a fast that I have chosen, A day for a man to afflict his soul? Is it to bow down his head like a bulrush, And to spread out sackcloth and ashes? Would you call this a fast, And an acceptable day to the LORD?”
Luke 18:12 (NKJV) “I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.”
Matthew 9:14 (NKJV) “Then the disciples of John came to Him, saying, "Why do we and the Pharisees fast often, but Your disciples do not fast?"
Facts:
1. The emphasis of Romans 14 is on food.
2. There is no mention of the Sabbath in the chapter.
3. Other Scriptures show that certain days were designated for fasting.
Based on these facts, it makes sense to conclude that Romans 14:6 has nothing to do with the Sabbath, but is referring to days of fasting. People were free to eat or not to eat. It was their choice; they were not to be judged by these things, nor judge others by them.
Thank you for sharing. I will look into this.Several years ago a friend of mine made a connection between Romans 14 and the Mishnah, Tractate Avodah Zarah (Idol Worship). I thought it was rather compelling. He may have picked up on this from Mark Nanos (The Mystery of Romans.)
Basic premise is this: Romans was written to non-Pauline congregations in Rome composed of believing Jews and believing Gentiles. These mixed congregations had problems caused by cultural differences between Jews and Gentiles, specifically in regards to food and days. These stem from Jewish custom and halakah that prohibited eating or drinking things the MAY have been offered to idols. Also part of the problem were Jewish restrictions on doing business with Gentiles at or near pagan holidays. All of these elements can be found in Romans 14 and Avodah Zarah.
Here is a pretty good treatment of the subject.
Here are citations from the Mishnah.
Actually, God's Sabbath rest remains from since He finished His works of original creation, which was long before David: "For we who have believed do enter that rest...although His works were finished since the creation of the world." -- (Hebrews 4:3).Indeed... "it remains" --- then we ask 'remains from what?" - and the text says the Sabbath rest remains as it was in the time of David - in Psalms 96.
God's Sabbath rest that remains is not a 24 hour day of rest, but is a perpetual, unceasing period of rest.Remains is very different from "just now deleted" as I am we would all agree.
The reality of God's Sabbath rest is found only in Christ. This is why Christ commands us: "Come to Me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest…and you will find rest for your souls." -- (Matthew 11:28-29).
Actually, God's Sabbath rest remains from since He finished His works of original creation, which was long before David: "For we who have believed do enter that rest...although His works were finished since the creation of the world." -- (Hebrews 4:3).
God's Sabbath rest that remains is not a 24 hour day of rest, but is a perpetual, unceasing period of rest.
God's Sabbath rest began when God permanently ceased from His works of original creation, and His Sabbath rest continued unceasingly throughout the time of David, even to this very day. When God ceased from His works of original creation, it was a permanent ceasing, or permanent rest, because God never returned to work on His original creation.
When we enter God's Sabbath rest we permanently cease from our works just as God permanently ceased from His: "for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from his own works, just as God did from His." -- (Hebrews 4:9-10).
The seventh-day rest is not God's permanent Sabbath rest, but was only a 24 hour reminder of God's permanent Sabbath rest. The seventh-day rest was only a temporary shadow pointing forward to the permanent reality of God's Sabbath rest that is found only in Christ:
"Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ." -- (Colossians 2:16-17).
The reality of God's Sabbath rest is found only in Christ. This is why Christ commands us: "Come to Me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest…and you will find rest for your souls." -- (Matthew 11:28-29).
I think you are reading your own assumptions into Romans 14.A careful reading of Romans 14 shows an emphasis on food, not sabbath days.
It does not make sense that Paul, in speaking of the observance of a day in connection to eating (v. 6), would suddenly imply that the Sabbath is irrelevant to believers. The Sabbath is not the subject; food is.
Romans 14:6 (NKJV) “He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks.”
In verse 6 we see what appears to be a parallel, showing a link between the observance of days and eating. What I see Paul saying here is people are free to eat or not to eat on certain days, and that none should judge the other by these things. Whether you choose to eat or not to eat, it does not add to or take anything away from your salvation in Christ.
We find evidence elsewhere in the Scriptures of a belief in fasting on certain days:
Isaiah 58:5 (NKJV) “Is it a fast that I have chosen, A day for a man to afflict his soul? Is it to bow down his head like a bulrush, And to spread out sackcloth and ashes? Would you call this a fast, And an acceptable day to the LORD?”
Luke 18:12 (NKJV) “I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.”
Matthew 9:14 (NKJV) “Then the disciples of John came to Him, saying, "Why do we and the Pharisees fast often, but Your disciples do not fast?"
Facts:
1. The emphasis of Romans 14 is on food.
2. There is no mention of the Sabbath in the chapter.
3. Other Scriptures show that certain days were designated for fasting.
Based on these facts, it makes sense to conclude that Romans 14:6 has nothing to do with the Sabbath, but is referring to days of fasting. People were free to eat or not to eat. It was their choice; they were not to be judged by these things, nor judge others by them.
I think that Messianic banquet with Jesus has already begun through the Church, His sacred body.I think the Sabbath is also a rehearsal, as the Hebrew for 'sacred assemblies' suggests. It is a rehearsal for the Messianic banquet Jesus and the sages speak of, when people from the east and west will come and sit down with the patriarchs and celebrate sacred occasions with Jesus here on earth.
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