God's job

[payattention]

The more I listen to my Christian brethren the more concerned I get about a long-standing effort to determine what kinds of activities will keep others out of heaven. Last night I had a long talk with a friend who insisted on saying that there are people who have said they want nothing to do with God and those people will go to hell because they have rejected God. I kept asking why she believed they had rejected and she kept going back to what they had said. I sense the same sentiment in discussions among other Christians who conclude that people who are doing this and such will be lost.

Why do we think that we have to engage in this type of discussion? Do we really think that we the ones deciding their destiny? I think we should come to the realization that our only responsibility is to live according to what we know and believe. When we decide to divine other people's condition before God we are trying to do work He has reserved to Himself. We are putting ourselves in His place. To put it bluntly, we are trying to be God and are therefore putting another god before Him.

 

[StormyOne]

I think it is a natural thing to want to be in "the right" whatever, the right church, the right school, the right club....Along with this is the desire to exclude others from our special group.....

Again, I think we should focus on Christ, follow as He leads and let God worry about who belongs to Him....

 

[Cliff2]

It seems from what is said here that there are some who will be very surprised as to what side of the fence they are on.

I has always been God's work to determine who is lost and who is saved. We have never been given that job.

Matthew 25 (New International Version)

The Sheep and the Goats

31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.



34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.' 46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

 

[woobadooba]

It seems from what is said here that there are some who will be very surprised as to what side of the fence they are on.

I has always been God's work to determine who is lost and who is saved. We have never been given that job.

Matthew 25 (New International Version)

The Sheep and the Goats

31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.



34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.' 46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Yes, but Jesus also said, "By their fruits you shall know them", so, we can know who is and isn't living according to the will of God by observing their actions.

When one gets into theology that is a whole different thing, much more complex.

For, some people may think differently than us theologically, but that doesn't necessarily mean they don't love the Lord.

Nevertheless, there are those who do err theologically, and are teaching things that are heretical. We have been given instruction to correct such people, and if they refuse to heed such instruction, we have been admonished to avoid them, for they are not to be considered our brethren.

The question is however, does this apply to all doctrine, or only certain doctrines?

I think it is a question that is worthy of further consideration.

 

[payattention]

Yes, but Jesus also said, "By their fruits you shall know them", so, we can know who is and isn't living according to the will of God by observing their actions.

If I had a dollar for everytime I have seen this individuals misapply this text I would be a rich man. The context of that text was the selection of leaders. Christ would prefer us to follow Him but warned the people that if they chose to follow human leaders they should pay attention to the fruits of those leaders. This should not be misapplied to mean that we can determine who is on the Lord's side. That is God's job and to take His job is to put yourself before Him. That violates the first commandment.

 

[woobadooba]

If I had a dollar for everytime I have seen this individuals misapply this text I would be a rich man. The context of that text was the selection of leaders. Christ would prefer us to follow Him but warned the people that if they chose to follow human leaders they should pay attention to the fruits of those leaders. This should not be misapplied to mean that we can determine who is on the Lord's side. That is God's job and to take His job is to put yourself before Him. That violates the first commandment.

But can you be so sure that it can't be applied to common people too? If we can know our leaders by their fruits, why can't we know the common people too, by their fruits?

Yes, if you stick to solid exegesis and interpret it as such that it can only apply to leaders, then you have a point. But who ever said that it must only be applied to leaders? There is something called homiletics, wherein a passage can have more meaning to it than that which meets the eye. Thus it is when we take a passage that may appear to apply to a specific situation, and translate it into something practical, that can be applied to manifold situations.

Indeed the author intended to convey a specific message, but that doesn't mean that message is only to be applied to the specificity of that message. For, that message can foster many practical applications that the author may not even be aware of, but that God can bring to light.

That's what I love about the word of God. It is so rich with meaning. It is so practical! It is so powerful and True!

 

[tall73]

1CO 5:9 I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people-- 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11 But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.

1CO 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."

We are to judge those in the church who are living in direct sin. We are not to judge those in the world. Moreover, we are to judge them in regard to fellowship, not their salvation.

However, that does not at all mean that God is not clear on some issues. In the same book, 9 verses later, in the same discussion God makes some statements in regards to who would be saved:

1CO 6:9 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

While we are not to draw conclusions in individual cases, because we cannot know their heart, or their future, we can warn all people that their actions, if continued will lead to loss of salvation. Obviously repentance is possible as Paul points out that many there were already washed and sanctified.

And as to the reason, because some are in danger of being left outside the kingdom we have an obligation to warn them. But we don't have an obligation to speculate on individuals, especially if we are not willing to warn them.

 

[Cliff2]

We have never been given the job of separating the wheat from the chaff.

The Lord will do that at the Sercond Coming.

We have been given the job to tell others that Jesus is coming back.

Read Matt. 28:29,30

In here we see that in addition to telling others that Jesus is coming we are to teach as well, and baptise those who are taught and obey what they have learnt.

This does become a bit more complex than at first glance it appears.

But we have not been given the job that God does.

 

[payattention]

And as to the reason, because some are in danger of being left outside the kingdom we have an obligation to warn them. But we don't have an obligation to speculate on individuals, especially if we are not willing to warn them.

Our only responsibility is to bring Christ to the people. God is well able to warn them on His own. No one is in danger of being left outside of the kingdom unless they choose not to be in the kingdom. But this goes back to your belief that the default position is to be in the devil's domain. That position gives validity to the devil's claim that he owns us. God disagrees.

 

[payattention]

But can you be so sure that it can't be applied to common people too? If we can know our leaders by their fruits, why can't we know the common people too, by their fruits?

Yes, if you stick to solid exegesis and interpret it as such that it can only apply to leaders, then you have a point. But who ever said that it must only be applied to leaders? There is something called homiletics, wherein a passage can have more meaning to it than that which meets the eye. Thus it is when we take a passage that may appear to apply to a specific situation, and translate it into something practical, that can be applied to manifold situations.

Indeed the author intended to convey a specific message, but that doesn't mean that message is only to be applied to the specificity of that message. For, that message can foster many practical applications that the author may not even be aware of, but that God can bring to light.

That's what I love about the word of God. It is so rich with meaning. It is so practical! It is so powerful and True!

I thought we were concerned to stick to exegesis. When homiletics is used to present that are false it has ceased to serve the kingdom of God. We should not do everything we can do. God will hold us responsible for changing his "times and laws."

 

[tall73]

Our only responsibility is to bring Christ to the people. God is well able to warn them on His own. No one is in danger of being left outside of the kingdom unless they choose not to be in the kingdom. But this goes back to your belief that the default position is to be in the devil's domain. That position gives validity to the devil's claim that he owns us. God disagrees.

God has power over the whole earth. But we can choose to allow Satan to own our will. Here are some verses that I feel do point out that our default condition is not to be saved, along with some commentary....Although I should note the default condition is due to our sin. If someone didn't sin the default condition wouldn't apply. But the Bible is quite clear that all have, so it does.

If by default condition you are referring to the condition before we sin, then yes, that is fine. But the Bible rarely addresses that issue, since everyone has sinned. And if you make the point that we don't have to warn people, I assume you include people who have sinned.

Since they have sinned, their condition is lost, and they are in need of warning.

JN 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."

God does love the world and made a provision. But the condition is belief. Here it says plainly that anyone who does not believe in Him is condemned already.

1 John 5:10 Anyone who believes in the Son of God has this testimony in his heart. Anyone who does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because he has not believed the testimony God has given about his Son. 11 And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.

If one does not have the Son of God they do not have life. The next verse speaks to those who believe in the Son of God..again the condition is belief.

EPH 2:1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Here we see that they were

a. dead in transgressions and sin
b. following the ruler of the air
c. by nature objects of wrath
d. but now they received His grace
e. They received it through faith.

Again we see the chain...lost, objects of wrath, faith, which leads to grace, forgiveness and salvation.

RO 3:9 What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. 10 As it is written:

"There is no one righteous, not even one;

RO 3:11 there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.

RO 3:12 All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one."

RO 3:13 "Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit."
"The poison of vipers is on their lips."

RO 3:14 "Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."

RO 3:15 "Their feet are swift to shed blood;

RO 3:16 ruin and misery mark their ways,

RO 3:17 and the way of peace they do not know."

RO 3:18 "There is no fear of God before their eyes."

RO 3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

Here Paul notes that all are unrighteous, and convicts the whole world of sin for violating his law. They are all silenced by the law and are accountable to God for their sin.

RO 3:21 But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished-- 26 he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

Again we see that the condition of the gift of righteousness from God apart from law is through faith to all who believe.

 

[woobadooba]

I thought we were concerned to stick to exegesis. When homiletics is used to present that are false it has ceased to serve the kingdom of God. We should not do everything we can do. God will hold us responsible for changing his "times and laws."

It has nothing to do with changing times and laws; and incidentally, you just took that verse out of context, since it is referring to the antichrist, and what he will do to the saints, not homiletics! So, I see that it is ok for you to apply a verse to any given situation, but not ok for anyone else?

Ok, let's use your argument...

If we were to use your line of reasoning, then nothing in the Bible applies to us, because it was written to a people that were of another time period!

So what sense is there in having a Bible if we can't apply what was said in times past to the people of today?

And you never did answer my question! My question was, if Jesus, in referring to leaders, could say, "By their fruits you shall know them", can we not apply that to common people too? Don't you think you can know where someone stands in relation to God by what they do and refuse to give up, regardless of whether they are a leader or not?

 

[StormyOne]

In a sense you are correct... those writing the things we find in the bible were written to a specific people for a specific purpose.... We would do well to try to understand the original intent FIRST..... AFTER doing that, then we can extrapolate from the original intent practical principles for us here and now....

It can be done with some things that were written, but not all.... so we end up not being able to apply everything that was written then to us now...

 

[woobadooba]

In a sense you are correct... those writing the things we find in the bible were written to a specific people for a specific purpose.... We would do well to try to understand the original intent FIRST..... AFTER doing that, then we can extrapolate from the original intent practical principles for us here and now....

It can be done with some things that were written, but not all.... so we end up not being able to apply everything that was written then to us now...

Everything in the Bible applies to us. Let me explain...

There is an overt meaning to the text, and an underlying theme. Now, the overt meaning of the text doesn't always apply to us in the same way that it applied to the people to whom it addressed in its immediate context. However, there can be an underlying theme that can be applied to peoples of all generations and cultures. That is what I mean when I said that there can be a message within the message that the author wasn't aware of, but that God can bring to light when necessary.

This is why we have been told that, "All scripture is inspired by God and is profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work." 2Tim. 3:16-17

All scripture applies to the 'man of God'(all peoples who believe in Him)regardless of who it was written to in its immediate context. There is an underlying theme in everything that has been written down, for the peoples of every generation and culture.

 

[jonno]

Now, the overt meaning of the text doesn't always apply to us in the same way that it applied to the people to whom it addressed in its immediate context. However, there can be an underlying theme that can be applied to peoples of all generations and cultures.

Like the Sabbath?

 

[woobadooba]

Like the Sabbath?

Of course. We don't keep the Sabbath day holy in the same way that they did within the context of their surrounding circumstances. Nevertheless, it still has meaning for us and therefore apllies to us.

 

[jonno]

Of course.

Thank you

 

[woobadooba]

Thank you

For clarity I edited my post. So, you might want to see what else I said.

 

[StormyOne]

Everything in the Bible applies to us. Let me explain...

There is an overt meaning to the text, and an underlying theme. Now, the overt meaning of the text doesn't always apply to us in the same way that it applied to the people to whom it addressed in its immediate context. However, there can be an underlying theme that can be applied to peoples of all generations and cultures. That is what I mean when I said that there can be a message within the message that the author wasn't aware of, but that God can bring to light when necessary.

This is why we have been told that, "All scripture is inspired by God and is profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work." 2Tim. 3:16-17

All scripture applies to the 'man of God'(all peoples who believe in Him)regardless of who it was written to in its immediate context. There is an underlying theme in everything that has been written down, for the peoples of every generation and culture.

Thank you for your explanation... I disagree.... as I stated previously, when the words all scripture was written, there was no NT.... everything in the bible does not apply... if it does why are we not stoning rebellious children? Why are we not building battlements around our roofs to keep folks from falling off? Why are we not giving the tithe every third year to the Levites, the orphans, the widows, and the strangers within our gates?

There is much in the bible that has NO practical application today.... OR if it is applicable we are not doing it... so which is it?

 

[jonno]

For clarity I edited my post. So, you might want to see what else I said.

For a moment I thought we could agree that the principle of the sabbath applies to all generations and cultures.