God's Covenant with Isaac, but not Ishmael ???

[ChristDiver]

I sincerely need help with this one as to I ran into a brick wall & the bricks need some explaining to do or my head will continue to throb.

Regarding God's Covenant to Abraham. Why isn't Ishmael included in the covenant ???

In Genesis 12:2-3 God starts to bless abraham with the begining of the covenant but didn't elaborate further until Genesis 17:7-8. The confirmed covenant is in Genesis 22:17-18.

Now here is my problem with this Ishmael not being included in the covenant which God explained in Genesis 17:21.

How is it that in the NT Jesus explains to us in Galatians 3:29 " And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and Heirs according to the promise. "
Well how is it that the covenant only includes Isaac's seed line instead of Ishmael but given the present day we know that Ishmaels people have come to Christ if his seed line still exists to this present day. A major contradiction IMHO.

Finally I ask in Genesis 22:17-18. Since Abraham's Obedience to God satisfied the Lord which confirmed the convenant in this chapter, does this include Ishmael once again in the covenant since Abraham didn't withheld his son Isaac.

All intelligent responses are highly encourage & furthermore any sarcastic responses will be dealt with in a rigtheous & timely manner.

God Bless All !!!

Gerry

 

[seekingpurity047]

I sincerely need help with this one as to I ran into a brick wall & the bricks need some explaining to do or my head will continue to throb.

Regarding God's Covenant to Abraham. Why isn't Ishmael included in the covenant ???

In Genesis 12:2-3 God starts to bless abraham with the begining of the covenant but didn't elaborate further until Genesis 17:7-8. The confirmed covenant is in Genesis 22:17-18.

Now here is my problem with this Ishmael not being included in the covenant which God explained in Genesis 17:21.

How is it that in the NT Jesus explains to us in Galatians 3:29 " And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and Heirs according to the promise. "
Well how is it that the covenant only includes Isaac's seed line instead of Ishmael but given the present day we know that Ishmaels people have come to Christ if his seed line still exists to this present day. A major contradiction IMHO.

Finally I ask in Genesis 22:17-18. Since Abraham's Obedience to God satisfied the Lord which confirmed the convenant in this chapter, does this include Ishmael once again in the covenant since Abraham didn't withheld his son Isaac.

All intelligent responses are highly encourage & furthermore any sarcastic responses will be dealt with in a rigtheous & timely manner.

God Bless All !!!

Gerry

Gerry, keyword in Galatians 3:29: promise. Abraham's seed according to the Promise. God wants people from every tribe, tongue, and nation to hear the gospel and to be saved. It's not about physical descendants, it's about being Children of Promise. It's not a contradiction at all. Ishmael was, indeed, Abraham's seed, but he was not a child of the promise, however, there are going to be children of promise from every tribe, tongue, and nation.

To the glory of God,
Randy

EDIT: Note also that God chose Jacob instead of Esau as a Child of the Promise, even though Esau was part of Abraham's seed.

 

[ChristDiver]

Gerry, keyword in Galatians 3:29: promise. Abraham's seed according to the Promise. God wants people from every tribe, tongue, and nation to hear the gospel and to be saved. It's not about physical descendants, it's about being Children of Promise. It's not a contradiction at all. Ishmael was, indeed, Abraham's seed, but he was not a child of the promise, however, there are going to be children of promise from every tribe, tongue, and nation.

To the glory of God,
Randy

EDIT: Note also that God chose Jacob instead of Esau as a Child of the Promise, even though Esau was part of Abraham's seed.

I completely understand we do not have to be the physical descendants of Abraham based on Genesis 22:17. We being the gentiles are the stars of the heaven. I don't mean to be harsh but that post didn't answer my question. Esau was in the seed line of Isaac as well as the Jacob. But wait a minute I believe I'll retract that last statement based on the understanding of one individual could only carry the covenant as did jacob with Judah through which came David as he passed onto Solomon then came Christ through the same seed line. But all in all everyone else is blessed besides the carrier of the convenant which were distinct individuals in Gods will.

Getting close ???

God Bless !!!

Gerry

 

[HisKid1973]

Ismael was not what God's fullfillment promise...He was a human fulfillment..pax..kim

 

[idner]

As I concern, God's covenant for Abraham and his heir is just between Abraham and Isaac and Isaac heir not for Ishmael. Why? God promise Abraham to give him a descendant and he was married to Sarah. But Abraham thought God will him descendant from another woman so he took Hagar. Then Ishmael was born from Hagar and Abraham thought that was it. But God said its from Sarah and not from Hagar therefore the covenant is not valid to Ishmael and their heir. BUT God didnt abandon Ishmael. He gave a promise to Ishmael as well in Genesis 17:20-2. But the promise that God gave to Ishmael is different from the covenant. Therefore, If its about the covenant between Abraham and his heir, Ishmael is not included as the child God promised was Isaac and not Ishmael but unfortunately, Abraham didnt think the way God was.

And regarding to Galatians, its for everyone who believe in Jesus is included with the covenant no matter if they have Ishmael bloodline or not, they are included in God covenant between Abraham and Isaac heir.

Thats from me
God bless

 

[ChristDiver]

And regarding to Galatians, its for everyone who believe in Jesus is included with the covenant no matter if they have Ishmael bloodline or not, they are included in God covenant between Abraham and Isaac heir.

So is it fair to say that Ishmael descendants were included as well given Pauls letter to the Galatians in 3:29. It seems to be cancelling each other out. Ishmael was born before the covenant was started. God promised Abraham to make him a great nation & bless him in Genesis 12:2-3. Lets not get confused as the promise was Genesis 12:2-3 but the covenant came in Genesis 17:7-8 with final confirmation of the covenant in Genesis 22:17-18.

When people say Covenant & Promise to mean the same but they differ in regards to the question Im asking & so far my conclusion is that there is still a contradiction.



Peace be with You !!!

Gerry

 

[ArmoredTruth]

I thought anyone could obtain salvation, not just Abraham's seed?

 

[icedtea]

Abraham's seed with Sarah was promised to be God's people.

 

[idner]

I thought anyone could obtain salvation, not just Abraham's seed?

Anyone can obtain salvation as long as they accept Jesus as their Lord and saviour

 

[idner]

So is it fair to say that Ishmael descendants were included as well given Pauls letter to the Galatians in 3:29. It seems to be cancelling each other out. Ishmael was born before the covenant was started. God promised Abraham to make him a great nation & bless him in Genesis 12:2-3. Lets not get confused as the promise was Genesis 12:2-3 but the covenant came in Genesis 17:7-8 with final confirmation of the covenant in Genesis 22:17-18.
Gerry

Did I make u even confuse?

Well, this is my opinion and this might be wrong. Its true that the convenant between Abraham and God appears after Ishmael was born. Abraham was 99 years old when GOD made the covenant and Abraham was 86. However, the promsie that God gave to Abraham regarding his heir was made before Hagar pregnant. In Genesis 15:4 it says And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir. At that time, Abraham was married to Sarah and God was meaning from Sarah that his son will come from. But then Abraham took Hagar and had sex with her then she got pregnant and gave birth to Ishmael. Abraham thought Ishmael was the son that God promised him but read again in Genesis 17:16 And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her. More over look at verse 18 - 21 And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee! And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him. And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation. But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.

From those verses, I personally think that the covenant is between God, Abraham, Isaac and his heir since God say that He will establish covenant with Isaac but about Ishmael, He will bless him. And I believe God fullfill His promise to Abraham about making Isaac a big nation.

Is it fair that if Ishmael descendant being included in the covenant? The key point is If he/she accept Jesus as His/Her personal saviour, then he/she will be included in the covenant. For us, we are not Abraham descendant physically. I m not Jewish and I am not Israeli and Physically, I am not in the covenant. BUT since I accepted Jesus as my saviour, I m part of the covenant as it says in Galatians 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. If we look one verse before verse 29, we will see There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. That verse point out no matter what ur race is, no matter where r u from, once u accept Jesus, we are all one and the come verse 29 which states that we are Abraham's heir.

Does that make sense?
Did I answer your question?

 

[Beasley]

Idner, very good comments


Christdiver, I will add that most of your answers are in Galatians 3

8The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." 9So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer...
16Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed He does not say, "And to seeds," as referring to many, but rather to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ.
17What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise.
18For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.
19Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made.

We are born again of imperishable seed, Christ and in that respect the condition of all nations being blessed by God's Covenant with Abraham was carried to all peoples.

BUT, only through Abraham, Issac and Jacob was the CHRIST, the seed produced. Ishmael while line of Abraham was not line of Christ and the Covenant was passed through Abraham, Issac and Jacob, not through Ishmael.


Ishmael and the Gentiles are not now and never will be Jews, and are only blessed by the Covenant through Christ under the clause that all nations would be blessed through him.

The Covenant was an everlasting covenant and only those with eternal life are able to inherit blessing out of it, under its various clauses.

 

[Beasley]

The lineage of Christ is in view and that is one reason for the geneaologies. While they may seem boring, they are important. Further, God made many covenants about/with Christ and every one of them will be fulfilled.

 

[sunlover1]

Well how is it that the covenant only includes Isaac's seed line instead of Ishmael but given the present day we know that Ishmaels people have come to Christ if his seed line still exists to this present day. A major contradiction IMHO.

I think Ishmaels tribe is muslim

Finally I ask in Genesis 22:17-18. Since Abraham's Obedience to God satisfied the Lord which confirmed the convenant in this chapter, does this include Ishmael once again in the covenant since Abraham didn't withheld his son Isaac.

I don't know.
Abrahams obedience to God in this instance is an example for us of great, mind blowing faith.
But Abraham knew that God would not let him kill this child, because of God's promise.

Have you read the Romans account of free v slave woman?

Maybe that would help further your understanding of this subject.

GREAT subject by the way!
We should get a nice lesson here, if people have time to teach.

sunlover

 

[KJVisTruth]

I once read that God never called Ishmael Abraham's son. But I am not sure this is correct, nor scriptural.

The promise was to be through Sarah, and so thats Isaac. All God did with Ishmael was blessing him to be fruitful, and making him a great nation.

Cool subject, btw. =)

 

[Optimax]

I sincerely need help with this one as to I ran into a brick wall & the bricks need some explaining to do or my head will continue to throb.

Regarding God's Covenant to Abraham. Why isn't Ishmael included in the covenant ???

In Genesis 12:2-3 God starts to bless abraham with the begining of the covenant but didn't elaborate further until Genesis 17:7-8. The confirmed covenant is in Genesis 22:17-18.

Ishmael was not included because he was born of Hagia, the maid, not Abraham's wife Sarah.

Ismael was given a "blessing".

Ge 16:12

12 And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.
KJV

Ge 17:20-21

20 And as for Ishmael , I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.

21 But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.
KJV


Now here is my problem with this Ishmael not being included in the covenant which God explained in Genesis 17:21.

How is it that in the NT Jesus explains to us in Galatians 3:29 " And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and Heirs according to the promise. "
Well how is it that the covenant only includes Isaac's seed line instead of Ishmael but given the present day we know that Ishmaels people have come to Christ if his seed line still exists to this present day. A major contradiction IMHO.

Once the blessing of Abraham was made availabe to all through Jesus, anyone including decendents of Ishmael can be included. Just like anyone else if they are born again, Rom. 10:9-10 tells how, then they are included.

Finally I ask in Genesis 22:17-18. Since Abraham's Obedience to God satisfied the Lord which confirmed the convenant in this chapter, does this include Ishmael once again in the covenant since Abraham didn't withheld his son Isaac.

All intelligent responses are highly encourage & furthermore any sarcastic responses will be dealt with in a rigtheous & timely manner.

God Bless All !!!

Gerry

It does not include Ishmael because he was not included in the original covenant.

Ismaels decendents are the arabs which also include the radical muslems that are terrorist today.


Hope this was "an intelligent" response so I do not get the "righteous & timely" treatment.

 

[ArmoredTruth]

BUT since I accepted Jesus as my saviour, I m part of the covenant as it says in Galatians 3:29 [/COLOR]And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. If we look one verse before verse 29, we will see There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. That verse point out no matter what ur race is, no matter where r u from, once u accept Jesus, we are all one and the come verse 29 which states that we are Abraham's heir.

Does that make sense?
Did I answer your question?
[/COLOR]

Yes that helps. So even Ishmael's offspring can be a part of the covenant, but only if they convert from Islam to Christianity, right? For a minute there I was thinking only the physical descendants of Abraham will be allowed into heaven.

 

[ChristDiver]

Idner, very good comments


Christdiver, I will add that most of your answers are in Galatians 3

8The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." 9So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer...
16Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed He does not say, "And to seeds," as referring to many, but rather to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ.
17What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise.
18For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.
19Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made.

We are born again of imperishable seed, Christ and in that respect the condition of all nations being blessed by God's Covenant with Abraham was carried to all peoples.

BUT, only through Abraham, Issac and Jacob was the CHRIST, the seed produced. Ishmael while line of Abraham was not line of Christ and the Covenant was passed through Abraham, Issac and Jacob, not through Ishmael.


Ishmael and the Gentiles are not now and never will be Jews, and are only blessed by the Covenant through Christ under the clause that all nations would be blessed through him.

The Covenant was an everlasting covenant and only those with eternal life are able to inherit blessing out of it, under its various clauses.

Its pretty clear in Galatians & I appreciate your intelligent response which the by most part has renewed my throbing head.

Yes this clears up my question by the most part but Im wondering even though Ishmael was blessed what happens to the souls of those seeds of Ishmaels before the birth of Christ especially those whom weren't involved in muslim practices whom never astrayed from God of Abraham?

I guess Deuturonomy 29:29 will explain this one.



God Bless Beasley !!!

Gerry