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Godless March on Washington

isshinwhat

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Where did he say anything to discredit atheism? There is a difference between an atheist and an anti-theist, and vice-versa. A theist does not have to disparage atheists to practice his faith. A president praying says, in actuality, nothing more than he prays. What others read into it is often what they bring in themselves as preconeptions. Would it be wrong of a President to call for increased aid to farmers, since that would be favoring those who farm over those who do not? Theism and the practice thereof does not have to be anti-atheistic.

Neal
 
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crazyfingers

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Originally posted by isshinwhat
We have citizens here that do not speak English. Should the President not speak English because that excludes a portion of the populus? Where does it stop?


The english language is not specificed in the constitution.  Separation of chruch and state is.  When the President is speaking AS PRESIDENT, he should not be saying that religion is preferred which Bush did on his National Day of Prayer.  YOu know that Madison, who wrote the 1st amendment did say that presidential calls to prayer are a violation of the constitution.

If we are to be a free counrty, then all must have the freedom to exercise the basic rights inherent to humanity. For those who pray, it is the duty of a president to call them to prayer.

Many in the clergy would say that it is their duty and not the presidents' duty.  Are you saying that the president should usurp the duty of the clergy?

Prayer is at the very least a unifying force. For those who do not pray, it is the President to enkindle solidarity between them, as well.

When Bush called on all Americans to pray I found that to be completely alianating. He was disrespecting me.

A President should be all things to all people. He should be a symbol of unity in a diverse country.

Neal

And calling all people to prayer is immensely alianating to some 14% of the population.
 
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isshinwhat

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When Bush called on all Americans to pray I found that to be completely alianating.

Would it have been appropriate had he not said all? How do you recommend he handle matters, including his own faith, publicly, without ostracizing a good portion of the country?

Neal
 
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isshinwhat

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Everyone benefits from farming, and I dare say that not many people would speak poorly of it, regardless of religious affiliation, or the lack thereof.

Agreed. With properly practiced religion, the same should be true, whether you are theist or not. A Christian, since that is what I am most familiar with, should treat everyone equally and give aid to all without prejudice. I realize this is a very optimistic statement that borders on naive, but why should any expression of faith, or lack thereof, be spoken of any differently than something that is more tangibly beneficial to everyone, all the time, like farming?

Neal
 
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sampo

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Quite simply because most Christians do not see anything other than Christianity as being beneficial to anyone. In fact, the opposite is true in a lot of cases. Most christians have a tough time even conversing with non-Christians, muchless thinking that their viewpoints are valid and should be treated as such. Sad but true. I am an agnostic, but I do not try and say that my way is the only way. It would be a pretty boring existence if everyone were like me. A lot of Christians do not uphold that viewpoint in regard to heathens, however.
 
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isshinwhat

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Many in the clergy would say that it is their duty and not the presidents' duty. Are you saying that the president should usurp the duty of the clergy?

The clergy are not the only group who call people to prayer. Anyone can, and for a Christian, it is at various times our duty, though we may be laity. There is no usurpation occurring.

Neal
 
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crazyfingers

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Originally posted by isshinwhat
Would it have been appropriate had he not said all? How do you recommend he handle matters, including his own faith, publicly, without ostracizing a good portion of the country?

Neal

 

He needs to talk as if he has some respect for those who do not share his faith.  And he needs to clearly differentiate between when he is speaking as "The President" and when he's speaking as a person.  When he is making a televised speech, he is clearlty "The President" and needs to show some respect for those who do not share his faith because when he speaks as "the President" and pushes his own faith to the exclusion of others or none, he can not help but imply that other beliefs are less than adequate.
 
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isshinwhat

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Sadly I stand in agreement with your statement. But I am a self-professed naive optimist, so I'm going to do my best to change the situation. I am certain you, as well as every other atheist on this forum, serve an important and beneficial role.

Neal
 
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crazyfingers

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Originally posted by isshinwhat
The clergy are not the only group who call people to prayer. Anyone can, and for a Christian, it is at various times our duty, though we may be laity. There is no usurpation occurring.

Neal

 

I can find some clergy who disagree with that.

For the recent national day of prayer the president had a government paid chaplain write the official prayer and a lot of clergy were extremely upset over this.  It was not what they considered to be of their faith.

And, what business is it of the government to be writing prayers with tax dollars anyway?  The governemnt should not be in the prayer business.
 
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isshinwhat

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And he needs to clearly differentiate between when he is speaking as "The President" and when he's speaking as a person.

Sounds like the Pope speaking ex Cathedra. In one case we believe him to be infallible, in the other we do not. Anyway....


I still have yet to see him excluding anyone, with the exception of his asking all Americans to pray. For instance the closing of the legal oath states "so help me God." If that were to be taken out, would that necessarily make it an atheistic oath, to the exclusion of theist possibilities? Does it imply there is no God? In my opinion, his praying, in and of itself, is not an endorsement of theism "to the exclusion of others or none."

Neal
 
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crazyfingers

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Do you really want me to go find his speech when he proclaimed the national day of prayer after 911?  I can dig it up with a lot of effort if I have to. I found it completely alianating. 
 
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Starscream

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Hey crazyfingers, do you think you could find a link to that atheist on death row in Pakistan for lambslove here?

(edited to add:  BTW, he's on death row for the heinous crime of teaching evolution)

You are correct, many people are killed for their beliefs.  Do you honestly suspect that an atheist in the heart of the Middle East would get off any better than a Jew or Christian?


And, why should you get more respect than you already get? What do atheists contribute to society?

This particular atheist would be more than willing to put his contributions against yours.  Perhaps I don't drop some coin in the collection plate each week but I assure you that my wife and I are very generous with our time and money for needy causes.

You have now made two generalizations against atheists:

1)  They only march to seek the spotlight.

2)  They make no worthwhile contributions to society.

Perhaps now you understand a bit better why some of feel the need to speak up against prejudice?
 
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isshinwhat

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Do you really want me to go find his speech when he proclaimed the national day of prayer after 911? I can dig it up with a lot of effort if I have to. I found it completely alianating.

Nahhh. There is no need for you to do my footwork. I haven't seen it, but I'll look for it.

Neal
 
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isshinwhat

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Does it start out:


http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/09/20010914-2.html
 
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crazyfingers

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Bush calls for a Day of Prayer


 

His speech


 

Dubya did not speak to me at all.  His speech above showed no effort at all to include anyone who does not believe in his god.  It was utterly alianating
 
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LouisBooth

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"Dubya did not speak to me at all. "

Umm..he is a christian..so he called to what he knew to do, ask christians to pray.

" His speech above showed no effort at all to include anyone who does not believe in his god. "

ummm so? He doesn't mention specifically humanists, cultists, nor satanists, nor many other people. so what? you're alienated because you want to be alienated.
 
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