God & Time

[miamited]

Hi archie,

You wrote:

Jesus statement was both a claim to Deity and the rather clear statement He exists in all time at once - as opposed to the 'right now' existence of humans.

I've never understood that statement to mean that Jesus exists in all time at once. The Pharisees were merely disputing the idea that Jesus had ever personally known Abraham and Jesus responded that even before Abraham, he existed. I honestly don't see how you understand those words to somehow mean that he exists in all time at once.

However, I do agree that the limitations of our human understanding may certainly have some bearing on our being able to fully comprehend how time and God function together.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[Archie the Preacher]

I've never understood that statement to mean that Jesus exists in all time at once. I honestly don't see how you understand those words to somehow mean that he exists in all time at once.

It is the intentional use of the tense Jesus used: "...before Abraham came into existence (literally in Greek, “before Abraham was”) I am!”

The tense applied to the Earthly existence of Abraham is past tense; Abraham was, the word 'before' reinforces this condition. But Jesus uses the present tense in this, I am. Yes, I am aware the juxtaposition of the two words in Hebrew is the Tetragrammaton, which is no unintentional pun. But Jesus is saying - contrary to your (the Pharisees') misconception, I already exist (not existed) prior to the existence of Abraham. Which as God, is surely correct.

One also notes the words of John's gospel, the first paragraph or two: "In the beginning was the Word..." the was in this sentence does not imply 'was and is no longer' but rather 'already was in existence'.

You are free to disagree, but that's the reasoning.

However, I do agree that the limitations of our human understanding may certainly have some bearing on our being able to fully comprehend how time and God function together.

I'm with you there. I think many times in the Bible, the Lord uses - either directly or by inspiration - terminology 'we' can relate to rather than go off on long tangents explaining stuff we don't even have words for yet.

 

[miamited]

see below

 

[Kenneth Redden]

This may be helpful.

It is an oldie, but goodie.

It explains some of the physics of time.

You cannot measure spiritual things with a mechanical device.

 

[Kenneth Redden]

First, not everyone agrees that God is outside of time, among those who disagree are ther classical authors John Duns Scotus or William Ockham. Isaac Newton, the great father of modern physics, in his Scholium to the Principia also disagrees.

But first let's define time in order to avoid equivocation:





Time, therefore, is a perception of sequences of events which precede and follow one another.

So for time to exist there must be events and a perceiver of events.
Since God has always existed time as a perception in the mind of God it existed prior to the creation of the material universe.

The only difference is that unlike humans and other created creatures such as angels, his perception of previous events can never reach a starting point or a point beyond which there is a blank.

So the concept that God is outside of time doesn't harmonize with God's relationship to time as described in the Bible.
God is repeatedly depicted as working within a time framework.
Genesis is the first example where he divides his creation activity into seven time periods he calls days.
Later we are told that he perceives a thousand years as a day or a mere watch in the night.



BTW

Contrary to popular opinion, there were sequences of temporally-perceived events occurring prior to the creation of our material universe. Such events were taking place in the realm which the Bible calls heaven and the sequences of the events that transpired there prior to our universe being created is truly beyond human imagination.

But 2 Peter 3:8 is regarding the fifth day and sixth day, as described in
Revelation 20:1-7.

 

[Radrook]

But 2 Peter 3:8 is regarding the fifth day and sixth day, as described in
Revelation 20:1-7.

I don't understand.

Why are we supposed to believe that Peter is referring to any specific day?

I fail to see the connection between the two scriptures.

Also, even if it were so, how is this relevant to God being either outside of time or totally divorced from it?

Revelation 20:1-7.
20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

2 Peter 3:8
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

 

[Radrook]

You cannot measure spiritual things with a mechanical device.

That made me consider the possibility that dark can't be identified because it might very well be spiritual in nature. Some things are simply beyond human explanation and must be accepted simply because they are that way.

One example is how things behave at the subatomic or quantum level where photons seem to know when they are or are not being observed and seem to choose to modify their behavior either as waves or particles accordingly.

But accepting things as perhaps being spiritual goes against the search for truth via science and the correct thing is to search for a natural explanation for every phenomenon we might encounter no matter how illusive it might seem to be.

 

[Archie the Preacher]

You cannot measure spiritual things with a mechanical device.

I agree without quibble. Under the proper circumstances I have often pointed out "God does not appear in a test tube or equation". He is behind all of it, of course, but does not appear in it.

 

[Kenneth Redden]

I don't understand.

Why are we supposed to believe that Peter is referring to any specific day?

Because this is how Paul explains to us the mystery of the days of Creation.

I fail to see the connection between the two scriptures.

Look in the doublet beginning Revelation 6. In Revelation 6:9, when the Lamb opened the fifth seal, for the fifth day; John “saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held”. This can be associated with, “the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God,” in Revelation 20:4.
With the doublet demonstrated in 2 Peter 3:3-8, 2 Peter 3:3 is, "from the beginning." 2 Peter 3:6 is regarding the second day but from the third day in 2 Peter 3:7, which becomes the fourth day. 2 Peter 3:8 speaks of the fifth day and sixth day with the phrase, "a thousand years," and "a thousand years" is our reference to Revelation 20:1-7.
The apostle Paul uses, “doublets,” of the days of the Creation to put forth his point. One of his points is that the days of Genesis one have occurred, "as the sand of the sea” as "the stars of the heaven," Genesis 32:12; approximately one quintillion times, and today is the fourth of the “last days” of the Creation, Hebrews 1:2.

Also, even if it were so, how is this relevant to God being either outside of time or totally divorced from it?

Because God is from everlasting to everlasting, Psalms 90:2, Psalms 103:17 & Psalms 106:48.

 

[Kenneth Redden]

I agree without quibble. Under the proper circumstances I have often pointed out "God does not appear in a test tube or equation". He is behind all of it, of course, but does not appear in it.

Agreed.

 

[Revealing Times]

The passage of time does not apply to the Word of God. God is outside of time. It is all from everlasting.
I believe you must first determine what day the passage is speaking of, before you can understand when it happened. Paul has shown us how to do this.

It can go either way, but what we do know is God is not subject to times restraints. So either God lives outside of time, or he lives in two or more planes of time at the same time, which would mean He would have no need of a beginning nor could He ever have an ending.

 

[Radrook]

I don't see how a being who is everlasting is outside of time by default.

 

[Radrook]

It can go either way, but what we do know is God is not subject to times restraints. So either God lives outside of time, or he lives in two or more planes of time at the same time, which would mean He would have no need of a beginning nor could He ever have an ending.

God tells us that he works within the parameters of time.

Eccl 3: 3
…2A time to give birth and a time to die; A time to plant and a time to uproot what is planted. 3A time to kill and a time to heal; A time to tear down and a time to build up. 4A time to weep and a time to laugh; A time to mourn and a time to dance.…


Ecclesiastes
OR, THE PREACHER
3

A Time for Everything
1 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
2 a time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
3 a time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
4 a time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
5 a time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;
6 a time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;
7 a time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
8 a time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.

1 Samuel 2:6,25 The LORD kills, and makes alive: he brings down to the grave, and brings up…

Gen 18:14 Is any thing too hard for the LORD? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.

Exod 9:5 And the LORD appointed a set time, saying, To morrow the LORD shall do this thing in the land

 

[Archie the Preacher]

Radrook, I think you're conflating two different on-going events.

One. God existed (perhaps exists) prior to the creation of this Universe. Since time is condition of this Universe, God existed prior to 'time'. At some far point in the future - without Divine intervention - the Universe will cease to function, 'end'. God will still exist without handicap or limitation. The logical conclusion is He is not subject to it in the same sense as humans, therefore 'outside' of time.

Two. God oversees this Universe including time. God moves in this Universe - frame of existence - and can certainly 'do things'. Creating humans and butterflies; walking in the Garden with Adam and Eve; wrestling Jacob the Trickster; and so on. However, God is NOT limited by time. Not in existence, not in action.

He certainly isn't limited to time in the same manner as humans, technology or the sun.

 

[Radrook]

Radrook, I think you're conflating two different on-going events.

One. God existed (perhaps exists) prior to the creation of this Universe. Since time is condition of this Universe, God existed prior to 'time'. At some far point in the future - without Divine intervention - the Universe will cease to function, 'end'. God will still exist without handicap or limitation. The logical conclusion is He is not subject to it in the same sense as humans, therefore 'outside' of time.

Two. God oversees this Universe including time. God moves in this Universe - frame of existence - and can certainly 'do things'. Creating humans and butterflies; walking in the Garden with Adam and Eve; wrestling Jacob the Trickster; and so on. However, God is NOT limited by time. Not in existence, not in action.

He certainly isn't limited to time in the same manner as humans, technology or the sun.

I don't believe that time started with the Big Bang and that sequences of events which indicate time passage were non existent for God and his angels until then. Neither is the BB event necessary for time to exist in all reality which has nothing to do with the BB. In fact, it is now being hypothesized that the BB might be merely a localized event in the midst of millions of such BBs caused by the collision of what they call branes. Others hypothesize the possibility of multiple universe all separated from one another and each having its own peculiar laws of its peculiar nature. Within such universes are thought to exist dimensions where live might exist. All these could simply be the way God created reality apart from his heaven which is a realm of its own albeit non material. And you say that our Big Bang is what provided God with the opportunity to count time? Time is merely sequences of events which have a beginning of in what is called a present which gradually becomes a past. What happened in heaven in the book of Job is described as a series of such events.

Job had been faithful, The devil challenged that faithfulness. Job was tested. Job emerged from the ordeal. Job was rewarded. Such lineal events are described as happening in heaven PRIOR to the creation of Earth where angels shout in applause as they witness the completion of God's plan.

Of course, if they shouted in applause when God completed Earth one can imagine their reaction at witnessing the initial BB and the eventual star formation leading to galaxies. To imagine that the event was perceived simultaneously with no past present and future is to propose a situation that can't be justified by these creatures and their creator living in he heaven since there is absolutely nothing concerning living in heaven which we are told that demands the absence of perception of past present and future and that those who reside there must experience time in some mysteriously jumbled, non linear way.

 

[Revealing Times]

God tells us that he works within the parameters of time.

Half of a Richard Deem Article........God exists in timeless eternity.........
How does God acting before time began get around the problem of God's creation ? There are two possible interpretations of these verses. One is that God exists outside of time. Since we live in a universe of cause and effect, we naturally assume that this is the only way in which any kind of existence can function. However, the premise is false. Without the dimension of time, there is no cause and effect, and all things that could exist in such a realm would have no need of being caused, but would have always existed. Therefore, God has no need of being created, but, in fact, created the time dimension of our universe specifically for a reason - so that cause and effect would exist for us. However, since God created time, cause and effect would never apply to His existence

God exists in multiple dimensions of time
The second interpretation is that God exists in more than one dimension of time. Things that exist in one dimension of time are restricted to time's arrow and are confined to cause and effect. However, two dimensions of time form a plane of time, which has no beginning and no end and is not restricted to any single direction. A being that exists in at least two dimensions of time can travel anywhere in time and yet never had a beginning, since a plane of time has no starting point. Either interpretation leads one to the conclusion that God has no need of having been created.

Why can't the universe be eternal ?
The idea that God can be eternal leads us to the idea that maybe the universe is eternal, and, therefore, God doesn't need to exist at all. Actually, this was the prevalent belief of atheists before the observational data of the 20th century strongly refuted the idea that the universe was eternal. This fact presented a big dilemma for atheists, since a non-eternal universe implied that it must have been caused. Maybe Genesis 1:1 was correct! Not to be dismayed by the facts, atheists have invented some metaphysical "science" that attempts to explain away the existence of God. Hence, most atheistic cosmologists believe that we see only the visible part of a much larger "multiverse" that randomly spews out universes with different physical parameters.2 Since there is no evidence supporting this idea (nor can there be, according to the laws of the universe), it is really just a substitute "god" for atheists. And, since this "god" is non-intelligent by definition, it requires a complex hypothesis, which would be ruled out if we use Occam's razor, which states that one should use the simplest logical explanation for any phenomenon. Purposeful intelligent design of the universe makes much more sense, especially based upon what we know about the design of the universe

What does science say about time ?
When Stephen Hawking, George Ellis, and Roger Penrose extended the equations for general relativity to include space and time, the results showed that time has a beginning - at the moment of creation (i.e., the Big Bang).3 In fact, if you examine university websites, you will find that many professors make such a claim - that the universe had a beginning and that this beginning marked the beginning of time (see The Universe is Not Eternal, But Had A Beginning). Such assertions support the Bible's claim that time began at the creation of the universe.

Conclusion
God has no need to have been created, since He exists either outside time (where cause and effect do not operate) or within multiple dimensions of time (such that there is no beginning of God's plane of time). Hence God is eternal, having never been created. Although it is possible that the universe itself is eternal, eliminating the need for its creation, observational evidence contradicts this hypothesis, since the universe began to exist a finite ~13.8 billion years ago. The only possible escape for the atheist is the invention of a kind of super universe, which can never be confirmed experimentally (hence it is metaphysical in nature, and not scientific).

 

[Radrook]

Half of a Richard Deem Article........God exists in timeless eternity.........
How does God acting before time began get around the problem of God's creation ? There are two possible interpretations of these verses. One is that God exists outside of time. Since we live in a universe of cause and effect, we naturally assume that this is the only way in which any kind of existence can function. However, the premise is false. Without the dimension of time, there is no cause and effect, and all things that could exist in such a realm would have no need of being caused, but would have always existed. Therefore, God has no need of being created, but, in fact, created the time dimension of our universe specifically for a reason - so that cause and effect would exist for us. However, since God created time, cause and effect would never apply to His existence

God exists in multiple dimensions of time
The second interpretation is that God exists in more than one dimension of time. Things that exist in one dimension of time are restricted to time's arrow and are confined to cause and effect. However, two dimensions of time form a plane of time, which has no beginning and no end and is not restricted to any single direction. A being that exists in at least two dimensions of time can travel anywhere in time and yet never had a beginning, since a plane of time has no starting point. Either interpretation leads one to the conclusion that God has no need of having been created.

Why can't the universe be eternal ?
The idea that God can be eternal leads us to the idea that maybe the universe is eternal, and, therefore, God doesn't need to exist at all. Actually, this was the prevalent belief of atheists before the observational data of the 20th century strongly refuted the idea that the universe was eternal. This fact presented a big dilemma for atheists, since a non-eternal universe implied that it must have been caused. Maybe Genesis 1:1 was correct! Not to be dismayed by the facts, atheists have invented some metaphysical "science" that attempts to explain away the existence of God. Hence, most atheistic cosmologists believe that we see only the visible part of a much larger "multiverse" that randomly spews out universes with different physical parameters.2 Since there is no evidence supporting this idea (nor can there be, according to the laws of the universe), it is really just a substitute "god" for atheists. And, since this "god" is non-intelligent by definition, it requires a complex hypothesis, which would be ruled out if we use Occam's razor, which states that one should use the simplest logical explanation for any phenomenon. Purposeful intelligent design of the universe makes much more sense, especially based upon what we know about the design of the universe

What does science say about time ?
When Stephen Hawking, George Ellis, and Roger Penrose extended the equations for general relativity to include space and time, the results showed that time has a beginning - at the moment of creation (i.e., the Big Bang).3 In fact, if you examine university websites, you will find that many professors make such a claim - that the universe had a beginning and that this beginning marked the beginning of time (see The Universe is Not Eternal, But Had A Beginning). Such assertions support the Bible's claim that time began at the creation of the universe.

Conclusion
God has no need to have been created, since He exists either outside time (where cause and effect do not operate) or within multiple dimensions of time (such that there is no beginning of God's plane of time). Hence God is eternal, having never been created. Although it is possible that the universe itself is eternal, eliminating the need for its creation, observational evidence contradicts this hypothesis, since the universe began to exist a finite ~13.8 billion years ago. The only possible escape for the atheist is the invention of a kind of super universe, which can never be confirmed experimentally (hence it is metaphysical in nature, and not scientific).

Yes I am aware of how atheist scientists panicked when the BB theory, as opposed to the Steady State Theory, indicated that the area which we refer to as the universe had a beginning. They felt much more at ease with one that was eternal since that would remove the need for an initiator.

I say area, because we are unable to see the non detectable part and must therefore assume it to exist.
I also say area because the BB need not entail all existence outside what is referred to as heaven.
The assumption that is does is recently under debate and the possibility of other BBs resulting in other areas similar and different to our own is being given serious thought by astro physicists.

About eternity, well, we all live in the eternal moment since that eternal moment is everlasting. What appears to change are events which occur within that eternal moment and which provide the illusion of movement which we call time. Such an illusion would have existed prior to the creation of heaven and Earth in the mind of God as thoughts emerged in a sequential fashion.

I agree that Ocam's Razor demands the creator hypothesis.
Atheists claim just the opposite.

 

[Archie the Preacher]

Half of a Richard Deem Article...

God exists in timeless eternity...

So we gather from the Bible, yes.

God exists in multiple dimensions of time

Yes again. According to information derived from the Bible, God is 'omnipresent' which means He exists in all places, and that requires He exists in all time. Past, present, future and 'sideways' - other dimensions - if such things exist. Like the psalmist said in Psalms 139:7-12.

Why can't the universe be eternal ?

Oddly enough, the Bible and 'science' agree on this. The Bible predicts an ending to the (current status at least) Universe. Physical science predicts a future status of total entropy or 'heat death'. Coming or going, this really isn't in question.

What does science say about time ?

When Stephen Hawking, George Ellis, and Roger Penrose extended the equations for general relativity to include space and time, the results showed that time has a beginning - at the moment of creation (i.e., the Big Bang).3 In fact, if you examine university websites, you will find that many professors make such a claim - that the universe had a beginning and that this beginning marked the beginning of time (see The Universe is Not Eternal, But Had A Beginning). Such assertions support the Bible's claim that time began at the creation of the universe.

All this spring boards from Dr. Einstein's concept of General Relativity. [-Slaps forehead in wonder-] The only people who disagree with this understanding are those who Radrook referenced with the "M Theory" idea where the 'background' to this Universe is eternal and our Universe (this one here) is merely a side effect.

It's really another stab at a 'non-created' or 'non-beginning' existence which removes the 'need' for God to create. It is not the "Steady State" dead end proposed by Sir Fred Hoyle, but it is the anti-spiritual child thereof.

Conclusion...Hence God is eternal, having never been created.

Can't argue with that. Not sure I agree with all of Dr. Deem's other conclusions, but herein I'm with it.

 

[Kenneth Redden]

It can go either way, but what we do know is God is not subject to times restraints. So either God lives outside of time, or he lives in two or more planes of time at the same time, which would mean He would have no need of a beginning nor could He ever have an ending.

I believe that God is from everlasting to everlasting, Psalms 90:2; from the first day to the seventh day. From everlasting, the first day begins with a specific aspect of our Universe to resolve. After the day, the issue had been resolved and the Creation returns to the everlasting, where “from the beginning” another issue is selected and the days of the Creation begin again, just as it is written in Genesis one. After all the issues of our Universe have been addressed and resolved, “the heavens and the earth were finished", Genesis 2:1, and we come to today, the last fourth day of the days of Genesis one.

 

[Kenneth Redden]

To be more precise, I believe that “the heavens and the earth were finished” on the last third day in Genesis one. Today is the last fourth day and this "dispensation of the grace of God" (Ephesians 3:2) is complete. Christ has come by blood today, as seen in that Old City of Jerusalem some two-thousand years ago, 1 John 5:6; and he has come by water on the first day, as found in Revelation 11:8.