God, The Devil, and Revelation

[FormerZombie]

I have recently come across a logical inconsistency in the Bible. It concerns the relationship of God, the Devil, and the book of Revelation. It goes something like this:

God cannot lie.

The book of Revelation is one of God's truths (not lying).

The book of Revelation says that the Devil will perform certain actions before the Final Judgement.

The Devil can read the book of Revelation and choose to not perform the actions therein, making God into a liar, which He cannot be.

Why would the Devil then perform suicidal actions when an omnipotent being says He will judge him after doing them? Why do them, when the Devil can hold God captive with God's own words? God cannot judge the Devil without those actions being performed, or the book of Revelations makes God into a liar.


One of my main gripes with Christian apologetics is that much of the time it has the christian squirming, twisting, and torturing with explanations to make things fit. The only thing I can think of to fight the logic of the above is for the christian to squirm and say that the devil is stupid, suicidal, or illiterate.

 

[FormerZombie]

And yes, I did try to post this in genral apologetics forum.

 

[LilLamb219]

Question for you, do you think the Devil always believes what God says?

 

[ephraimanesti]

I have recently come across a logical inconsistency in the Bible. It concerns the relationship of God, the Devil, and the book of Revelation. It goes something like this:

God cannot lie.

The book of Revelation is one of God's truths (not lying).

The book of Revelation says that the Devil will perform certain actions before the Final Judgement.

The Devil can read the book of Revelation and choose to not perform the actions therein, making God into a liar, which He cannot be.

Why would the Devil then perform suicidal actions when an omnipotent being says He will judge him after doing them? Why do them, when the Devil can hold God captive with God's own words? God cannot judge the Devil without those actions being performed, or the book of Revelations makes God into a liar.

One of my main gripes with Christian apologetics is that much of the time it has the christian squirming, twisting, and torturing with explanations to make things fit. The only thing I can think of to fight the logic of the above is for the christian to squirm and say that the devil is stupid, suicidal, or illiterate.

MY DEAR BROTHER,

There are NO "logical inconsistencies" in the Bible--only our limited ability to understand what is written therein.
The question you pose, however, is rather simply answered: the Devil makes these stupid and, as you say, suicidal choices to rebel against God for the same reason we do exactly the same thing--PRIDE. Pride was the sin that originally caused Lucifer to rebel against God's authority and caused him to fall from being an Angel of Light--apparently the Prince of the Angels--to being the Prince of Darkness. Likewise, it was Pride--the mother of all sin--which, under the prompting of Satan, caused the Fall of our foreparents Adam and Eve. And, as we speak, it is Pride which causes all our petty little rebellions against God which, if not repented of, will drop us into the Pit.
So, my question is, why are you so increduous about Satan's irrational behavior when you and i do exactly the same thing on a daily basis--albeit on a much lesser scale? If we see Satan as being stupid, irrational, and suicidal in his behavior, we perhaps also need to check ourselves.

MUCH LOVE TO YA IN CHRIST OUR LORD,
ephraim

 

[Anti Existance]

You are reading your bible only to find inconsistancy's.

A bible should be read prayerfully and it will speak back to you.

Is the bible flawed? Yes, its written by humans, humans make mistakes, and you will find those mistakes back in the bible. However believing in Jesus is not a mistake, because Jesus is the son of God, and you will find no inconsistanties in his words, you can actually proof for yourself that Jesus words work in practise even today.

And does the value of the life lessons Jesus teaches us decrease by the errors of mankind? Towards Jesus himself it does not, however it will bring you to find inconsistanties. Therefore the way how you are reading the bible is not in a correct manner, your not growing spiritually if for the times you read the bible are only looking for inconsistancies.

of course, you want to know for 'sure' wether the bible is true or not, the answer is 'yes' it really did happen. But your heart is full of doubt, and unwillingness which is perfectly natural , you see you can proof it to yourself, by trying Jesus words into practise, if they don't work you don't have to believe it, if they do work you can believe it.

 

[Diamonds2004]

I first elude to Peter then to the Devil.

The letter known as "II Peter" is credited to Peter authoring it. In it he says that he was on the mountain when Jesus was transfigured. I believe it is Chapter 2. The account can be seen in the Gospel of Matthew 18. Peter testifies that he was physical present for that event and when Peter was able to be in the company of Jesus he said on the night Jesus was betrayed said he would never desert Jesus. Jesus then said to Peter that he would desert him before the roster crowed twice and deny him three times. In the end that is exactly what Peter did.

The Devil is far more intelligent, stronger, faster, and commanding then the Apostle Peter ever was. Satan is an angel, a whole different kind of sentient being. The Devil knows what is written and there are things written and prophecy against him. He knows what has happened in the fulfillment of prophecy and knows that what God says will happen, including Satan's ultimate judgement before His throne and guilty for leading the world astray.

The Devil is intelligent but still limited, he is quite powerful but not all-powerful, he can see, but he can not actually see the future any more than you or I can on our own. He will finish his lawbreaking schemes until the end and God's track record shows that God is precisely where He wants to be in fulfillment of prophecy. Revelation can be counted on as trustworthy and is logical consistent, especially with the book of Daniel

 

[calidog]

I have recently come across a logical inconsistency in the Bible. It concerns the relationship of God, the Devil, and the book of Revelation. It goes something like this:

God cannot lie.

The book of Revelation is one of God's truths (not lying).

The book of Revelation says that the Devil will perform certain actions before the Final Judgement.

The Devil can read the book of Revelation and choose to not perform the actions therein, making God into a liar, which He cannot be.

Why would the Devil then perform suicidal actions when an omnipotent being says He will judge him after doing them? Why do them, when the Devil can hold God captive with God's own words? God cannot judge the Devil without those actions being performed, or the book of Revelations makes God into a liar.


One of my main gripes with Christian apologetics is that much of the time it has the christian squirming, twisting, and torturing with explanations to make things fit. The only thing I can think of to fight the logic of the above is for the christian to squirm and say that the devil is stupid, suicidal, or illiterate.

devil is stupid, suicidal, or illiterate.
He also believes he can undo God's plan. He is the father of liars. He is a deciever. Is it possible he has decieved himself into believing he can superceed God?

 

[Achichem]

have recently come across a logical inconsistency in the Bible. It concerns the relationship of God, the Devil, and the book of Revelation.

I question one assumption:
Why do you assume the devil is a physical being?

For, is the concept of a dark soul unable to follow the laws of G-d logical(within the context of the bible) and consistent with the full teaching of the bible? (the answer in my opinion no)

Indeed it seem to me, this is not proof of inconsistency in the Bible, but an inconsistency of the concept of a physical Satan.

For example:
If G-d is the source of all life, as it is taught clearly in the bible, how then can the enemy of G-d have life(be apart of God)? "Sin is death" "that which lead to death". If a physical Satan existed and had fully aligned himself to
Sin, he could not exist by the teaching of the bible.

Now, that said their is many good reasons why to personify "evil" verses keep merely a concept.
>>to stress the dynamic forms he can take
>>to stress his ever changing nature
>>to allow him to be a cause of multiple bad events
>>to prevent instruction in being evil
>>to make it more real
>>ect.

Peace,
PS: that said the nature of Satan(Devil) is to challage G-d to see how far one can go; so it would be actually contray to his nature to listen to G-d warnings.(As by defination Satan must alway push G-d warnings to their limit)

 

[MikeMcK]

I have recently come across a logical inconsistency in the Bible. It concerns the relationship of God, the Devil, and the book of Revelation. It goes something like this:

God cannot lie.

The book of Revelation is one of God's truths (not lying).

The book of Revelation says that the Devil will perform certain actions before the Final Judgement.

The Devil can read the book of Revelation and choose to not perform the actions therein, making God into a liar, which He cannot be.

There is no logical inconsistency. That the Devil can, doesn't mean that the Devil will.

Why would the Devil then perform suicidal actions when an omnipotent being says He will judge him after doing them?

Pride.

Besides, the Devil knows he has nothing to lose. He's going to be judged and thrown in to the lake of fire, anyway.

 

[Adstar]

I have recently come across a logical inconsistency in the Bible. It concerns the relationship of God, the Devil, and the book of Revelation. It goes something like this:

God cannot lie.

The book of Revelation is one of God's truths (not lying).

The book of Revelation says that the Devil will perform certain actions before the Final Judgement.

The Devil can read the book of Revelation and choose to not perform the actions therein, making God into a liar, which He cannot be.

Why would the Devil then perform suicidal actions when an omnipotent being says He will judge him after doing them? Why do them, when the Devil can hold God captive with God's own words? God cannot judge the Devil without those actions being performed, or the book of Revelations makes God into a liar.


One of my main gripes with Christian apologetics is that much of the time it has the christian squirming, twisting, and torturing with explanations to make things fit. The only thing I can think of to fight the logic of the above is for the christian to squirm and say that the devil is stupid, suicidal, or illiterate.

No squirming here

satan did not start out as suicidal just like many suicidal bombers did not start out suicidal. But satans logic is that of a man who knows he is defeated and is determined to take out as many as he can before he goes. As the book of Revelation says satan knows his time is short and he knows where his eternal destination is. This is why he has great wrath;

Revelation 12
12Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.”

God knows the future from His power of foreknowledge. That means that what is written in the book of Revelation will happen. satan will do all these things because he knows that he only has a short time before being cast into the eternal lake of fire.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[food4thought]

Satan hates mankind and wants the end times to come about. Read 2nd Thessalonians 2:6. Satan is currently being restrained from bringing these thing to pass. Think of a cosmic Napolean preparing to invade Russia. Then add the understanding that Satan already knows he's going to lose, but all he wants is for all the people involved to suffer, die, and spend eternity seperated from God.

Satan knows that he will spend eternity in hell. He hates God so much... only one problem: how do you hurt God? Can't touch Him... only thing left is to hurt that which He loves.

 

[ebia]

The book of Revelation is apocalyptic literature, not some kind of "history book writen before the events it describes".

 

[Strong_Believer]

You are reading your bible only to find inconsistancy's.

A bible should be read prayerfully and it will speak back to you.

Is the bible flawed? Yes, its written by humans, humans make mistakes, and you will find those mistakes back in the bible. However believing in Jesus is not a mistake, because Jesus is the son of God, and you will find no inconsistanties in his words, you can actually proof for yourself that Jesus words work in practise even today.

And does the value of the life lessons Jesus teaches us decrease by the errors of mankind? Towards Jesus himself it does not, however it will bring you to find inconsistanties. Therefore the way how you are reading the bible is not in a correct manner, your not growing spiritually if for the times you read the bible are only looking for inconsistancies.

of course, you want to know for 'sure' wether the bible is true or not, the answer is 'yes' it really did happen. But your heart is full of doubt, and unwillingness which is perfectly natural , you see you can proof it to yourself, by trying Jesus words into practise, if they don't work you don't have to believe it, if they do work you can believe it.

The bible is not flawed

 

[calidog]

The bible is not flawed

amen

 

[*~DJ~*]

The Bible is NEVER inconsistent!
Satan was created by God, he was never an eternal being, like God is, he was created in absolute holiness, he was perfection and full of wisdom. Because of this he became very prideful.
Satan said 5 "I will"s
>I will be in the place of God (Isaiah 14:12-13)
>I will rule the angels of God (Isaiah 14:13)
>I will rule the creation of God (Isaiah 14:13)
>I will possess greater glory than God (Isaiah 14:14)
>I will have the power of God (Isaiah 14:14)

Satan believes he can become God's equal and therefore can defeat God. Satan does not see Revelation as a prophecy, but what God wants to happen. Satan also knows, but refuses to admit, that this will never happen so tries damn as many souls as possible to flaunt it in God's face. The devil is not stupid (he was "full of wisdom" Ezekiel 28:12. Pride ruined him and he became Satan. He is not suicidal, he wants to be God!
And Satan is a real physical being. He is not omnipresent and cannot take his natural form on earth, but can inhabit people and animals. The devil is refered to in 26 of the OT books and 19 of the NT books. Jesus even speaks of the devil as a real being. (MT 4:10, 16:23, 25:41, LK 10:18, 22:31, JN 6:70, 8:44) Satan has a personality- He has a mind and intellect (2 COR 2:11, 11:3) He has wil and decision making ability (2 TIM 2:26, ISA 14:12-14, ZECH 3:1-2, 2 TIM 2:26) He has emotion (LK 22:31, 1 TIM 3:6, ISA 14:12-14, REV 12:12) A concept cannot have this.

I hope this answers your questions. If you need more info, I'd be glad to supply!

 

[Chris Norwood]

I've also gotten hung up before on the thought of why Satan would "play along" with the events in Revelation. Basically, I came to the understanding that Satan wants to be God, and has convinced himself that he actually has a shot at winning the "revolution" he started way back when. I'm not sure exactly why Satan does what he does, but I know that he wouldn't necessarily believe what is written in the Bible and might, as a matter of pride and overconfidence, actually do the things spelled out there just to prove to God and everybody that he can pull it off even if God said he couldn't. Of course, he's wrong, but like the strong-willed child there's probably no convincing him of that.

 

[FormerZombie]

Pride? that's your answer? The Devil has had 6,000 years to change his mind and his feelings. How many times have you changed your mind, feelings, and life plans? When has the Devil ever encountered God not doing what He says He's going to do?

Pride? where was the pride when the demons begged for mercy to go into pigs? Where was the pride when the Devil left Jesus in the wilderness after being defeated by little pieces of scripture? Where was the Devil's pride when Jesus rose from the grave? Where was the pride when Jesus's apostles went from town to town casting out demons? I say the Devil knows his history of defeats pretty well and all of them done when God said so. So... why wouldn't the Devil take Revelations seriously? All the Devil would have to do is change even just little details to make God into a liar.

Most of you haven't even realised that God is captive to God's own words because He cannot lie. The Devil knows this. And, given his craftiness why play DIRECTLY into God's words when he's been defeated that way before? When the Devil can make God untrustworthy or held at bay with his own words.


oh yea - and that whole thing about the Devil being restrained... that beats on all of your arguments very hard - because it show's the Devil in a completely subordinate position - which would further prove to him his inability to fight against God.

 

[Chris Norwood]

Pride? that's your answer?

Look, this is all supposition anyway, but even in the modern world Satan has a lot to be "proud" of:
-The fact that a majority of the world's population still follow false religions that he probably had a hand in.
-The overall ineffectiveness of the westernized church.
-All the crime, death, suffering, and evil rampant (now and thru all of history) in the world.
-Etc.

Your examples are very few, and were times when Satan or his demons were forced to come face-to-face with God. Now, I'm not sure exactly how much the devil is like us, but I know that humans have an incredible ability to rationalize away our failures and ignore that which we don't want to see. I figure that Satan is pretty much riding on a wave of his own success. He's high with what he thinks are significant victories, and he thinks that God was lying. I mean, if he knew God before his fall and decided to rebel anyway, he must not have been convinced either or God's power or of God's intentions. So don't assume that Satan is all convinced that God is limited by His word. Plus, I think that Satan takes Revelation very seriously, he probably just thinks that he has a foolproof plan to make sure that "God's version" doesn't work out like He thinks it will.

 

[Breaking Babylon]

Satan already knows his end. He's trying to win as many souls for his 'kingdom' as he can, in spite of God for his inevitable punishment. As Rev said, he has great wrath. He's the embodiment of wrath.

As far as free will goes, in a sense, Satan is needed. There wouldn't be much 'free will' if the choice wasn't there to serve God or not to serve God. Was there no other option, free will wouldn't exist, as there would only be one choice.

And yes, it's my belief that the point of life is to decide if you are for God or against Him.

This is all personal opinion - not flawless, but not much is. It's pretty simple, however. Because Satan knows his end is completely inevitable, why would he not fulfill the prophecy as it's been written? A lot of things can be changed, but, God's prophecy hasn't been off-course before, and it won't be in the future.

Before anyone responds with "Or God simply doesn't exist" or anything of that nature, save us both some time. If you're asking the question in a Christian forum, you can expect a Christian reply.

 

[food4thought]

Pride? that's your answer? The Devil has had 6,000 years to change his mind and his feelings. How many times have you changed your mind, feelings, and life plans? When has the Devil ever encountered God not doing what He says He's going to do?

Pride? where was the pride when the demons begged for mercy to go into pigs? Where was the pride when the Devil left Jesus in the wilderness after being defeated by little pieces of scripture? Where was the Devil's pride when Jesus rose from the grave? Where was the pride when Jesus's apostles went from town to town casting out demons? I say the Devil knows his history of defeats pretty well and all of them done when God said so. So... why wouldn't the Devil take Revelations seriously? All the Devil would have to do is change even just little details to make God into a liar.

Most of you haven't even realised that God is captive to God's own words because He cannot lie. The Devil knows this. And, given his craftiness why play DIRECTLY into God's words when he's been defeated that way before? When the Devil can make God untrustworthy or held at bay with his own words.


oh yea - and that whole thing about the Devil being restrained... that beats on all of your arguments very hard - because it show's the Devil in a completely subordinate position - which would further prove to him his inability to fight against God.

Satan can do nothing that God does not allow him to do (Job 1 is the best example of this). God restrains the evil in the world or else we would very shortly annihilate ourselves! Satan knows that God says he cannot lie, but he may not believe it... but he is restrained by God, as are those who serve him (2nd Thessalonians 2).

Satans motive is pride (Isaiah 14; Ezekiel 28); his main tool is lies (Gen_3:4, Gen_3:5; 2Ch_18:20-22; Job_1:11, Job_2:4-6; Joh 8:44; Act_5:3, Act_13:10; 2Co_11:3; 2Co_11:13-15; 2Th_2:9-11; Rev_12:9, Rev_13:14, Rev_20:2, Rev_20:3, Rev_20:10, Rev_21:8, Rev_22:15), and it is possible that he may have started to believe his own lies, but I doubt it. I think he simply wants to do as much damage as he can while he is free because he knows that his end is already sealed (Revelation 12:12).

Why would the Devil then perform suicidal actions when an omnipotent being says He will judge him after doing them? Why do them, when the Devil can hold God captive with God's own words? God cannot judge the Devil without those actions being performed, or the book of Revelations makes God into a liar

I think this is really where you need to rethink your ideas... Satan is already judged (Mat 25:41; 1Joh 3:8)! He can't escape it, for whatever reason (why, we are not told), Satan is not given any opportunities to repent now; so I believe that his hatred for God is being poured out on people, because God loves us and Satan cannot hurt God.