God preventing repentance?

[Ann77]

I’ve been having difficulty with these passages for a while.

John 12:40, KJV:
He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Mark 4:12, KJV: "That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them."

I know it’s a cross reference to Isaiah.. It seems like God is actively hardening hearts on a people that would’ve repented (?).

If God doesn’t delight in the death of the wicked (Ezekiel 18:23), why is He preventing repentance in these passages?

Are these passages spoken in a sarcastic way? What’s everyone’s take on these difficult verses?

 

[pescador]

I’ve been having difficulty with these passages for a while.

John 12:40, KJV:
He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Mark 4:12, KJV: "That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them."

I know it’s a cross reference to Isaiah.. It seems like God is actively hardening hearts on a people that would’ve repented (?).

If God doesn’t delight in the death of the wicked (Ezekiel 18:23), why is He preventing repentance in these passages?

Are these passages spoken in a sarcastic way? What’s everyone’s take on these difficult verses?

The Hebrews/Jews with whom God had a covenant violated the terms of the covenant over and over and over. In human terms, God finally "had it" with His people, so He in His wisdom decided to make salvation available to those who did not seek Him, i.e., the Gentiles. It was a fulfillment of His promise to Abraham that he would be "the father of many nations", not just a single group of people.

This doesn't apply universally to all Jews. I know, since I was born a Jew and was Bar Mitzvah at 13. After I became disenchanted with Judaism and became an atheist for 19 years -- until I was dramatically in the hospital, when I became a believing Christian, which I am to this day many years later.

 

[Andrewn]

"We are to remember that the prophet and those who quote him are all witnesses that within Israel there were eyes which were not blinded and hearts which were not hardened. Isaiah, and John, and Paul, were all Jews; and our Lord Himself was, in His human nature, of the seed of Abraham."

"God blinds and hardens not by any positive act, but by leaving and giving men up to the blindness and hardness of their hearts,"

 

[Ann77]

"We are to remember that the prophet and those who quote him are all witnesses that within Israel there were eyes which were not blinded and hearts which were not hardened. Isaiah, and John, and Paul, were all Jews; and our Lord Himself was, in His human nature, of the seed of Abraham."

"God blinds and hardens not by any positive act, but by leaving and giving men up to the blindness and hardness of their hearts,"

I’m sympathetic to this view but If it’s not done by a positive act, why does it say “He hath”..and “lest they be forgiven.”?

 

[eleos1954]

I’ve been having difficulty with these passages for a while.

John 12:40, KJV:
He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Mark 4:12, KJV: "That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them."

I know it’s a cross reference to Isaiah.. It seems like God is actively hardening hearts on a people that would’ve repented (?).

If God doesn’t delight in the death of the wicked (Ezekiel 18:23), why is He preventing repentance in these passages?

Are these passages spoken in a sarcastic way? What’s everyone’s take on these difficult verses?

Sin causes hearts to grow hard, especially continual and unrepentant sin. Now we know that “if we confess our sins, [Jesus] is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins” (1 John 1:9). However, if we don’t confess our sins, they have a cumulative and desensitizing effect on the conscience, making it difficult to even distinguish right from wrong. And this sinful and hardened heart is tantamount to the “seared conscience” Paul speaks of in 1Timothy 4:1–2.

Scripture makes it clear that if we relentlessly continue to engage in sin, there will come a time when God will give us over to our “debased mind” and let us have it our way. The apostle Paul writes about God’s wrath of abandonment in his letter to the Romans where we see that godless and wicked “men who suppress the truth” are eventually given over to the sinful desires of their hardened hearts (Romans 1:18–24).

 

[childeye 2]

I’ve been having difficulty with these passages for a while.

John 12:40, KJV:
He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Mark 4:12, KJV: "That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them."

I know it’s a cross reference to Isaiah.. It seems like God is actively hardening hearts on a people that would’ve repented (?).

If God doesn’t delight in the death of the wicked (Ezekiel 18:23), why is He preventing repentance in these passages?

Are these passages spoken in a sarcastic way? What’s everyone’s take on these difficult verses?

I think the problem in the creature is vanity, wherein we take God's attributes for granted. There seems to be a recurrent theme throughout scripture that mankind needs to somehow learn to be thankful to God, that we are even thankful to God.

1 Corinthians 1:17-31
17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with wisdom and eloquence, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.
18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, 19 For it is written:

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.

20 Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22 Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.

26 Brothers and sisters, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not to nullify the things that are, 29 so that no one may boast before him. 30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31 Therefore, as it is written: “Let the one who boasts boast in the Lord.”

 

[Andrewn]

I’m sympathetic to this view but If it’s not done by a positive act, why does it say “He hath”..and “lest they be forgiven.”?

When you talk to certain people over and over again about the Lord and they keep rejecting you and making fun of you, there comes a time when you would ironically say, "I will not talk to them again about the Lord otherwise they will get saved." Do you want them to be saved? Of course, your statement is ironic bec you actually want them to be saved. But you know this is not going to happen at the present time. The following article gives a good explanation of the irony used by the Lord in this passage:

http://evangelicalarminians.org/wp-...They-Should-Turn-and-Be-Forgiven.-Irony-2.pdf

It's probably the same logic in this verse:

Mat 7:6 “Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces.

Saying that God blinded their eyes is like saying that natural disasters are acts of God. Or that God allowed a murder or a rape. Attributing all events to God is just a figure of speech.

 

[timothyu]

Not through their will but His. The mind and heart are of no use as they see through the will of man.

Matthew 13:
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

 

[Studyman]

I’ve been having difficulty with these passages for a while.

John 12:40, KJV:
He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Mark 4:12, KJV: "That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them."

I know it’s a cross reference to Isaiah.. It seems like God is actively hardening hearts on a people that would’ve repented (?).

If God doesn’t delight in the death of the wicked (Ezekiel 18:23), why is He preventing repentance in these passages?

Are these passages spoken in a sarcastic way? What’s everyone’s take on these difficult verses?

It is important to understand what these men who called the God of the Bible their God, did to HIS Words and why these things happened to them.

It might help to hear what Paul says about them.

1 Cor. 10: 1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. 5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

These men who called God their Lord had rejected His Words, despised His Sabbaths and Laws, and had led God's people astray. They had created images of God in the likeness of man, and created their own "Feasts unto the Lord", "The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play".

Paul is showing us how God feels about men who do such things so will won't make the same mistakes.

God patience is long suffering, but does have it's limits.

Heb. 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;

16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.

17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

What a great question to ask. Remember,

Heb. 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

29 For our God is a consuming fire.

 

[paul1149]

I’m sympathetic to this view but If it’s not done by a positive act, why does it say “He hath”..and “lest they be forgiven.”?

The dynamic is given by Paul at the end of Romans 1:

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, those who are suppressing the truth in unrighteousness,
because that known of God is manifest in them, for God made it manifest to them.
For from the creation of the world His invisible attributes are being clearly seen, being understood by the things made, both His eternal power and divinity, so they are without excuse,
because knowing God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became vain in their reasonings, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Professing to be wise, they became fools,
and changed the glory of the immortal God into the likeness of an image of mortal man and birds and four footed animals and creeping things.
Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves,
who changed the truth of God into falsehood, and worshiped and served the created rather than the One having created, who is blessed forever. Amen.
For this reason God gave them over to vile passions. Because, even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature.
And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men doing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves that penalty of their error which was due.
And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not appropriate... -Rom 1:18-28
​

In each instance you see that man initiated the process of hardening. At some point God merely says, "Ok, if that's how you want it, I'll let you have what you want." Paul is teaching that God's judgments are not arbitrary, and that He does not condemn preemptively. Throughout the OT, beginning with Adam, He pleads with man not to sin and incur its consequences.

Postscript: To specifically answer your question, in the OT many things seem to be attributed directly to God's doing. But in the NT we have greater revelation of God's true motivations in what He does, and that His greatest motivation is love.

 

[Ann77]

The Hebrews/Jews with whom God had a covenant violated the terms of the covenant over and over and over. In human terms, God finally "had it" with His people, so He in His wisdom decided to make salvation available to those who did not seek Him, i.e., the Gentiles. It was a fulfillment of His promise to Abraham that he would be "the father of many nations", not just a single group of people.

This doesn't apply universally to all Jews. I know, since I was born a Jew and was Bar Mitzvah at 13. After I became disenchanted with Judaism and became an atheist for 19 years -- until I was dramatically in the hospital, when I became a believing Christian, which I am to this day many years later.

Thank you. Do you know if only the Prophets had the Holy Spirit in the OT? I’m just wondering how people were able to obey God in the OT before Pentecost.

 

[timothyu]

I’m just wondering how people were able to obey God in the OT before Pentecost.

Baecause they believed in the will of God over the will of man?

 

[pescador]

Thank you. Do you know if only the Prophets had the Holy Spirit in the OT? I’m just wondering how people were able to obey God in the OT before Pentecost.

They struggled, trying by their own efforts, but unfortunately, they failed over and over and over.

Psalm 51:10-12...

"Create in me a pure heart, O God,
and renew a steadfast spirit within me.
Do not cast me from your presence
or take your Holy Spirit from me.
Restore to me the joy of your salvation
and grant me a willing spirit, to sustain me.

 

[childeye 2]

The dynamic is given by Paul at the end of Romans 1:

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, those who are suppressing the truth in unrighteousness,
because that known of God is manifest in them, for God made it manifest to them.
For from the creation of the world His invisible attributes are being clearly seen, being understood by the things made, both His eternal power and divinity, so they are without excuse,
because knowing God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became vain in their reasonings, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Professing to be wise, they became fools,
and changed the glory of the immortal God into the likeness of an image of mortal man and birds and four footed animals and creeping things.
Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves,
who changed the truth of God into falsehood, and worshiped and served the created rather than the One having created, who is blessed forever. Amen.
For this reason God gave them over to vile passions. Because, even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature.
And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men doing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves that penalty of their error which was due.
And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not appropriate... -Rom 1:18-28
​

In each instance you see that man initiated the process of hardening. At some point God merely says, Paul is teaching that God's judgments are not arbitrary, and that He does not condemn preemptively. Throughout the OT, beginning with Adam, He pleads with man not to sin and incur its consequences.

Postscript: To specifically answer your question, in the OT many things seem to be attributed directly to God's doing. But in the NT we have greater revelation of God's true motivations in what He does, and that His greatest motivation is love.

"Ok, if that's how you want it, I'll let you have what you want."

I may be misunderstanding you, but I don't think this part of the interpretation is accurate. The scripture says we changed the truth of God into falsehood, alluding to changing the glory of the immortal God into images of god that were like creatures.

 

[Jonathan Be Well]

Acts 17:30-31
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31 because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

 

[hedrick]

On John, the Anchor Bible commentary says this:

"The concept that people had to disbelieve (“could not believe” in vs. 39) Jesus’ word and deed because the OT said they would disbelieve must not be misunderstood on a psychological plane. This is an explanation on the plane of salvific history. It does not destroy human freedom, for vs. 42 makes it quite clear that men were free to accept Jesus. John’s summation is not a statement of determinism but an implicit appeal to believe."

In effect he's saying that John's quotation (and probably the original) are not talking about individuals. Individuals are certainly free to believe Christ. Rather, like Rom 9 - 11, it's talking about God's plan. The overall rejection of Jesus by Israel was part of God's plan. Verse 42 makes clear that despite this overall rejection, individuals were free to accept Jesus, and many of them did.

 

[Mr. M]

Thank you. Do you know if only the Prophets had the Holy Spirit in the OT? I’m just wondering how people were able to obey God in the OT before Pentecost.

Psalm 51:10-12...

"Create in me a pure heart, O God,
and renew a steadfast spirit within me.
Do not cast me from your presence
or take your Holy Spirit from me.
Restore to me the joy of your salvation
and grant me a willing spirit, to sustain me

David was an anointed man of God!

 

[Mr. M]

In each instance you see that man initiated the process of hardening. At some point God merely says, "Ok, if that's how you want it, I'll let you have what you want." Paul is teaching that God's judgments are not arbitrary, and that He does not condemn preemptively. Throughout the OT, beginning with Adam, He pleads with man not to sin and incur its consequences.

Yes Paul, it is more of a spiritual principle that can in fact carry over into the Saints.
Isaiah 59:
1 Behold, the Lord's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy,
that it cannot hear:
2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have
hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

Hebrews 3:
12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing
from the living God.
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called today; lest any of you be hardened
through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast
unto the end;
15 While it is said, today if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

 

[timothyu]

Do you know if only the Prophets had the Holy Spirit in the OT?

Yes... ruach ha-kodesh specifically in Isaiah

 

[Andrewn]

Yes... ruach ha-kodesh specifically in Isaiah

The Nicene Creed says about the Holy Spirit:

"Who spoke through the prophets."

So, whenever the prophets write, "Yahweh says," they're referring to the Holy Spirit.