God permits evil because we need to know

Calvinism implies that the optimism in Paul's evangelism was misplaced, futile, and stupid. How utterly deceived is the Calvinist!

JAL said:

"Though I am free and belong to no one, I have made myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some." (1cor 9).

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That is also a perfect example of getting along with everybody, enemy included, as commanded in loving all as self.

JAL said:

Calvinism implies that the optimism in Paul's evangelism was misplaced, futile, and stupid. How utterly deceived is the Calvinist!

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Is there not a hint of pride in that pre-destiny?

JAL said:

Look, I'll say it again. Atheists aren't fooled by traditional shallow treatments of the Problem of Evil.

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it is somewhat a spiritual problem. As I have said deep in spirit is freedom and therefore it is before being and deeper than it. Perhaps you can also see it as will and perception.

They also think that evil is just a fundamental part of reality, it's just nature being nature. I too experience the plight that Atheist Experience. When I'm weak I suffer like they do and when I'm strong I have faith in God. They don't believe in God and so their optimism has to come from something else such as people, but hope is a quality of God. Everlasting hope can be perceived in the goodness of people because God gives gifts to us all. Without God the natural state of being is evil. Pick for yourselves if you want good or evil. God can't force himself on us. Perception and will are fundamental for the spiritual world. What we become matters, and the conditions outside of us should not rule us. When we are ruled in such a manner we start to lose ourselves. We find ourselves in God, who is in us. Be like the first Adam or be like the second Adam. The first Adam suffers because he is alienated from God. this mortal world cannot function properly unless Divine qualities are living in it. Natural states of suffering are reflections of the spiritual condition of humans. We have both good and evil in this world so that we can pick for ourselves what we want to be ruled by and to be like.

Anti fragility makes for stronger people. The movie Wall-E is said to show what happens when humans are spoon-fed. Certain nice qualities require resistance. it's one thing to be a good person in a perfect reality and it's quite another to be it in spite of being in the midst of evil. But atheist do not understand this because all they have is this life, it's the only life they know and believe in. They have already been condemned just like all that do not have a god are already condemned.

JAL said:

Furthermore, traditional theories self-contradict in their (futile) attempts to explain HOW we received a sinful nature from Adam.

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it seems obvious that Adam and the second Adam are states of being. The elect particles that you speak of can also be thought of as potentiality to be. the Son of God Jesus Christ went through the exact same world that we are going through. Why would god go through it for no reason? Why would we? why do some people enjoy riding roller coasters or watching horror movies or camping in the wilderness which is dangerous? Adventure, mettle, courage... can you seriously not find good reasons to exist in a world such as this for a Time?

Football would not be the same if people can't get hurt and can't weakly have a limitation to develop themselves in. Using what little we have to be something is a good.

God compelling us to forever be perfect is bad. so we are put in this reality of Good and Evil and then what happens? people are controlled by the outer conditions. It is no good to be a slave to God if he wants something more from us. us being subjugated to this world is better than being Eternal slaves to God... if we can realize the truth for our own selves we should love God and hate evil just like God does. So the goal is to be more closely like God is. We can't do that if we are not free. So the horrors of evil and what is not God exist so we can reject them. God freely rejects them and freely loves and he wants us to be this way too. He wants us to be actual people because he is an actual person.

There is a natural limit to the evils of this world. God does not allow for infinite evil like so many Christians believe. Death saves us from mortal suffering. Then the only suffering that is left is the evil inside of us. One down and one to go, we are more than conquerors.

Noxot said:

So the goal is to be more closely like God is.

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To learn how to properly live with the knowledge of good and evil? To be given access to the tree of life in spite of our knowledge?

timothyu said:

To learn how to properly live with the knowledge of good and evil? To be given access to the tree of life in spite of our knowledge?

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Sounds right. The scripture say that Jesus chose goodness before he knew evil. I think it was due to adams immaturity as to why the tree of knowledge of Good and Evil was so dangerous. The Flaming sword and cherub that guards the Tree of Life is the very tree of life itself, but the tree of knowledge of Good and Evil has polluted and confused us.

The word for that angel is related to child and cuteness. The greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven is a child. The Flaming sword that goes whichever way is the infinite wisdom of God. But the tree of knowledge of Good and Evil has us thinking the tree of life is our enemy, that the sword of the spirit is both Good and Evil for us. And the Innocence is something outside of us, blocking us from having the Tree of Life. The sword is like a serpent, though it should not be.

Noxot said:

but the tree of knowledge of Good and Evil has polluted and confused us.

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It gave us knowledge of what we were composed of, unlike other living species which are not self aware. God did not condemn them for doing good and evil for they merely blindly followed the animal instinct they were created with.

ImAllLikeOkWaitWat said:

I was thinking about God and the question of why does God permit evil since no one would permit evil if they had the power to stop it.

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I used to do that a lot.

ImAllLikeOkWaitWat said:

But I think that the answer isn't as simple as having the power to stop evil and then just stopping it.

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As I see it...
He can and does, if He so chooses to.

See Genesis 6:20.

ImAllLikeOkWaitWat said:

What if there is value in evil? What if we have to know evil because otherwise we would spend eternity in a happy paradise wondering about the other possibilities beyond the good we are experiencing. Maybe we just needed to know. It's like having an itch that must be scratched even at the risk of a scar. Maybe experiencing evil is worth knowing. What if we enter the next life grateful we know evil and no longer have to experience it again.

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Personally speaking,
I understand that the Lord permits evil ( not "calamity", but rebellious disobedience to His will ) because He has a purpose beyond what most people see at the forefront.
According to his word, I see Him permitting people to sin because He is either going to judge them for it in perfect righteousness and holiness, or He is going to graciously save them from the penalty, power and finally the presence of it by His grace and merciful power.

God's children have had their hearts changed ( born again, spiritually ) so that they no longer love sin and seek to go at it "hammer and tongs"...they've been made free from its hold over them, but wrestle with their sinful flesh until death.
However, the very fact that they come to hate sin and eventually begin to groan under the weight of it during their lives is evidence of a miraculous change within them that the Lord has worked.

In other words, we long to be clothed with our new bodies and to no longer sin.

ImAllLikeOkWaitWat said:

What if we enter the next life grateful we know evil and no longer have to experience it again. Maybe that knowledge was necessary for us to be happy and whole. Wouldn't you want your children to know evil? And if so then maybe we shouldn't question God for allowing evil.

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I think you're on to something.
That aside, my own opinion is this:

It was necessary for the creature to experience and fall into sin, so that the objects of His grace and mercy would forever praise Him for our forgiveness and deliverance from it.

Navair2 said:

It was necessary for the creature to experience and fall into sin, so that the objects of His grace and mercy would forever praise Him for our forgiveness and deliverance from it.

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Consider Adam and Eve. With only two of them one was still able to influence the other and shape their character. Today a baby has potentially 7.5 billion influences on their lives to shape their character.

Is it any wonder God says to love all as self because none of us is free of that influence and some have a harder life than others which can develop unhealthy character traits. We are to be patient and kind because after all, with by one changed daily choice, there but for the grace of God could go we.,

JAL said:

Moreover, human fallibility is precisely why I champion the primacy of Direct Revelation above exegesis (and thus reject Sola Scriptura).

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I hope I'm not offending,
but I felt the need to reply to this post.

Human fallibility is precisely why I accept the idea of "Sola Scriptura" ( Scripture Alone ) versus the teachnigs some have of "Scripture plus.....".
Because only God alone can interpose Himself and His will over ours, and can preserve His words so that we as believers can trust them...
Instead of fallible men and their words.
See Proverbs 3:5-7.

My firm belief is that direct revelation from God is closed for the foreseeable future and has been for quite some time;
As I see it, the next event that will result in Him speaking to all men, with no room for "interpretation", will be when the Lord Jesus returns to sit on His throne at Jerusalem.

May God bless you richly in many ways.

Navair2 said:

My firm belief is that direct revelation from God is closed for the foreseeable future and has been for quite some time;
As I see it, the next event that will result in Him speaking to all men, with no room for "interpretation", will be when the Lord Jesus returns to sit on His throne at Jerusalem.

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That would account fore the groundwork being laid 2000 years ago. Instead of going to philosophy class in some church perhaps people should read the manual.

timothyu said:

Is there not a hint of pride in that pre-destiny?

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Not one.
Who did the choosing?

If I did, then I would take pride in it.
If He did, then I'm abased at His feet, grateful for His mercy and grace to me...
a sinner in desperate need of a Saviour from my own willful and stubbornly created mess.

timothyu said:

Instead of going to philosophy class in some church perhaps people should read the manual.

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Where do you think I got the answers?
I can assure you that it was not in a church or a philosophy class.

I recommend that all of my brothers and sisters do the same, my friend.
2 Timothy 2:15, 1 Peter 2:2.

Navair2 said:

If I did, then I would take pride in it.
If He did, then I'm abased at His feet, grateful for His mercy and grace to me...

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Then why do so many insist others follow suit? Is religious philosophy (aka theology) as important to Gentiles as it was to the ancient Greeks?

timothyu said:

Then why do so many insist others follow suit?

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I can't answer that, as I don't absolutely insist that my brothers and sisters follow suit...
But I do hope that they will.

timothyu said:

Is religious philosophy (aka theology) as important to Gentiles as it was to the ancient Greeks?

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I'm sorry, timothyu.
I don't categorize theology and philosophy the same as you appear to be doing.

To me, philosophy is man's vain efforts at trying to understand God without the benefit of belief in His words...
or they are man's vain efforts at trying to understand our own condition or situations and how to get out of them or else live with them.

"Theology" is the understanding of God and His word, but it's dependent upon the words on the page.
Theology can either be good or bad;
Based on things that God says that are either taken in context or taken out of context.
One's "theology" can either result in true doctrines, or false ones.

In addition, I hold that there are two different types of theology...

1) Borrowed from someone else, "systematically" or denominationally, or
2) Developed on one's own strictly through Scriptural study over a long period of time.

I see most professing Christians falling under the confines of #1, which I also see as not being biblical;
To me, we as believers should all be studying God's word for ourselves and checking the teachers around us according to their fruits.

As for doctrines, I find that it is permissible to establish those in the public eye, but they must be done strictly from the words on the page and not from commentaries or borrowed from someone's ideas of what His word states.

Navair2 said:

As for doctrines, I find that it is permissible to establish those in the public eye, but they must be done strictly from the words on the page.

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Agreed... without motive. Must adhere to the Kingdom of God, not the institutions of man

btw
Theology - philosophically oriented discipline of religious speculation and apologetics that is traditionally restricted, because of its origins and format, to Christianity but that may also encompass, because of its themes, other religions, including especially Islam and Judaism. The themes of theology include God, humanity, the world, salvation, and eschatology (the study of last times). .... Britannica

timothyu said:

Theology - philosophically oriented discipline of religious speculation and apologetics that is traditionally restricted, because of its origins and format, to Christianity but that may also encompass, because of its themes, other religions, including especially Islam and Judaism. The themes of theology include God, humanity, the world, salvation, and eschatology (the study of last times). .... Britannica

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Again, I don't define theology by how we as men tend to define it.

I define it by "Theo" = God.
"-ology" = study of, understanding of, knowing.

Also, remember who comes up with dictionary definitions...
To me it's usually not God's children.