God ordained the Fall

Crowns&Laurels · Jul 12, 2015

Our choices and His will are a duality. He gave us autonomy over our existence.

justinangel · Jul 13, 2015

Crowns&Laurels said:
Our choices and His will are a duality. He gave us autonomy over our existence.

Yes. Adam and Eve were autonomous, or else they couldn't have sinned.

PAX

Meowzltov · Jul 15, 2015

I agree with the OP. The fall was part of Plan A. There was no Plan B.

Consider that the fall was how Mankind became morally sentient. Before eating of the fruit, Adam and Eve were morally on the level of the animals. Do you think God wanted them to stay in that condition, not knowing right from wrong? Of course not. Eating from the tree had always been part of His plan.

rnmomof7 · Jul 19, 2015

Daaa said:
God is sovereign over all things.

Something as important as the fall of all humanity did not catch God by surprise nor did Satan deceive God or Adam did not sin of his own free will.

It was God’s plan before the earth was created that all will die in Adam and will be made alive in Christ .

Without a sinner who needs Jesus.

Of course God ordained the fall .. He cast satan to earth.. He placed the trees in the garden .. If it was not Gods will for the fall then He would not have done this...remember that Peter tells us that the cross was ordained before the foundation of the earth.. God ordained the fall of satan, the fall of Adam and the redemption by Christ.. all of this was for HIS glory

Crowns&Laurels · Jul 22, 2015

I don't think God either ordained or didn't ordain the Fall. He put the Tree there as an open possibility, so that man had a choice in which direction to go in. I think God was ready to either have us live in eternal grace or to learn in hardship, so long as mankind. as free vessels, really completed their voyage in existence with meaning.

The reason I think this is simple- God is the underlying force of the universe which creates and binds all things. There doesn't need to be motive behind everything He does. Sometimes there's just us and a choice to make.

justinangel · Aug 12, 2015

rnmomof7 said:
Of course God ordained the fall .. He cast satan to earth.. He placed the trees in the garden .. If it was not Gods will for the fall then He would not have done this...remember that Peter tells us that the cross was ordained before the foundation of the earth.. God ordained the fall of satan, the fall of Adam and the redemption by Christ.. all of this was for HIS glory

God did not ordain the fall by moral decree, or else humankind could not be culpable for its sins. However, God did create the physical world knowing that humankind would fall from His grace by its own liberty of will. God did not desire the fall, but He permitted it for the sake of a greater good. Meanwhile, 'God desires that everyone be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth' (cf. 1 Tim 2:4), though He knows not everyone will be saved by their own free will. Human free will is that stone which God ordained should be too heavy for Him to lift. In other words, God wills not to coerce or program us, but to persuade us by the influence of His cooperative grace in respect for our autonomy and divine image. We are not passive spectators in God's plan of salvation.

If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is,seated at the right hand of God. Set your minds on things that are above, not on things that are on earth. For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory. Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. On account of these the wrath of God is coming.
Colossians 3, 1-6

PAX

rnmomof7 · Aug 12, 2015

justinangel said:
God did not ordain the fall by moral decree, or else humankind could not be culpable for its sins. However, God did create the physical world knowing that humankind would fall from His grace by its own liberty of will. God did not desire the fall, but He permitted it for the sake of a greater good.

If God did not desire the fall it would not have happened .....

God ordained the fall before the creation of the earth ... as a part of that God ordained the revolt in heaven ...

God planted the garden designed for the fall,..he placed Satan there as His tool to tempt ... He created Adam and Eve in such a way that they would would desire the beautiful... Lust of the eyes ..that they would want to taste it.. lust of the flesh..and that they would believe if they fulfilled their physical desires they could be gods... Pride of life

To believe that because God ordains an event man's participation would not be a sin ...is proven false by the crucification

The cross was ordained by God before the foundation of the earth.. .. The betrayal of judas was ordained by God ... the trial before Pilate was ordained before the foundation of the earth ... as was Christ being nailed to the cross..

Yet we also know that each of the "players" was guilty of sin in the event... Jesus even asked that the men nailing Him to the cross be forgiven ...

Meanwhile, 'God desires that everyone be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth' (cf. 1 Tim 2:4), though He knows not everyone will be saved by their own free will. Human free will is that stone which God ordained should be too heavy for Him to lift. In other words, God wills not to coerce or program us, but to persuade us by the influence of His cooperative grace in respect for our autonomy and divine image. We are not passive spectators in God's plan of salvation.

What a weak and helpless god, that can not accomplish what He wills ... poor god...waiting on men to give him what he wants

LOL... "The stone on mans free will is the stone too heavy for Him to lift ?? "

Could I have a scripture on that ???

Men do think highly about themselves ..not only equal to God but superior ...

Sounds like many people have eaten the apple promising to make them as gods...

The error of 'free willism" is it does not understand that the grace of God draws us and makes us willing

Hosea 11:4
I led them with cords of human kindness, with ties of love. To them I was like one who lifts a little child to the cheek, and I bent down to feed them.

Jeremiah 31:3
The LORD appeared to us in the past, saying: "I have loved you with an everlasting love; I have drawn you with unfailing kindness.

Jhn 6:44

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jhn 6:45

It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

The grace of God is so sweet ... no one that has had it poured on them runs from it... they run to Him

Psa 110:3

Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

random person · Aug 13, 2015

I say Adam and Eve were destined to fall short of Christ.

The Garden of Eden is all about our standing before God.

We lost it. Our standing, that is.

justinangel · Aug 13, 2015

rnmomof7 said:
If God did not desire the fall it would not have happened .....

You are confusing God's antecedent will with His consequent will. Not everything God desires is fulfilled. God desires that everyone be saved (antecedent will), though many souls are lost by their own fault (God's consequent will). God desires to save everyone on condition that they observe His commandments.

The Lord is not slow to fulfil his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.
2 Peter 3, 9

God ordained the fall before the creation of the earth ... as a part of that God ordained the revolt in heaven ...

Then there couldn't have been a fall or a revolt. There must be liberty of human and angelic will for such events to happen.

God planted the garden designed for the fall,..he placed Satan there as His tool to tempt ... He created Adam and Eve in such a way that they would desire the beautiful... Lust of the eyes ..that they would want to taste it.. lust of the flesh..and that they would believe if they fulfilled their physical desires they could be gods... Pride of life.

God chose to create a world which has the potential to freely deviate from His good purpose. Concupiscence of the eyes and of the flesh, and the pride of life arise out of a vacuum. Our inordinate self-love arises out of our God given ability to love. Our evil acts arise in opposition to our God given ability to do good by His sufficient grace. We have been placed here to be tested. God did not create Lucifer for the purpose of falling from heaven and subsequently tempting mankind. But God does use Satan to test our love for Him. All that transpires in the course of creation is immediately present and known to God. Evil is permitted for the sake of a greater good. Without this greater good in mind, God would not have created anything. Being in the position to choose to create anything or anyone, and knowing all things in the immediate eternal present, God can never compromise His sovereignty. Ultimately God is in control, but nonetheless He has willed to honour our freedom and use it for His good purpose. God could only depend on us if He hadn't created us. He willed to create us in such a way that our eternal destiny depends on how we decide to conduct our lives. Certainly God has not programmed human beings to mechanically act in such a way so that some should be saved and others be lost. Your idea of causality is too narrow and rigid, and thereby it morally indicts God for the sins of the whole world.

Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.
James 1, 13

To believe that because God ordains an event man's participation would not be a sin ...is proven false by the crucification.

The cross was ordained by God before the foundation of the earth.. .. The betrayal of judas was ordained by God ... the trial before Pilate was ordained before the foundation of the earth ... as was Christ being nailed to the cross..

The betrayal of Judas was known by God when He created him. But God did not create Judas for the purpose of betraying Jesus or Pilate for the sake of having Jesus crucified. What God sees from outside the course of real time in the immediate eternal present God utilizes for a good purpose. What God knows, sees, wills, and executes are one single act with a design which includes the involvement of human free agency. Judas and Pilate were not designed in such a mechanical way that they couldn't choose otherwise. Human beings aren't dependent on physical laws like the planets orbiting the Sun are. They can do nothing but revolve.

For truly in this city there were gathered together against thy holy servant Jesus, whom thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever thy hand and thy plan had predestined to take place.
Acts 4, 27-28

As I've already pointed out above, the word predestination is derived from the Greek word prooridzo which means God knows in advance what we will choose to do. It does not mean that God determines what we will do. What God decrees is based on His knowledge of us (even before we are born) which He utilises for a good purpose.

Yet we also know that each of the "players" was guilty of sin in the event... Jesus even asked that the men nailing Him to the cross be forgiven ...

There is no 'Yet'. You can't have it both ways. If God determined Judas to betray Jesus, Pilate to order the crucifixion of Jesus, and the Israelites to reject the Messiah, then they wouldn't be in the position of having to be forgiven. They couldn't possibly be at fault.

What a weak and helpless god, that can not accomplish what He wills ... poor god...waiting on men to give him what he wants.

What God wills is that we love Him above all other things. Without free will, we cannot possibly love God and prove ourselves faithful by keeping His commandments. This is how God has ordered creation, and what we mean by His covenant, so His omnipotence can never be compromised. God would certainly compromise Himself if He allowed His omnipotence to negate His wisdom, goodness, and righteousness. If God were so mutable as you perceive Him to be, He couldn't be God. Immutability is a non-moral attribute of His.

If you love me, you will keep my commandments.
John 14, 15

God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. In this is love perfected with us, that we may have confidence for the day of judgment, because as he is so are we in this world. There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and he who fears is not perfected in love. We love, because he first loved us. If any one says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen. And this commandment we have from him, that he who loves God should love his brother also.
1 John 4, 16-21

LOL... "The stone on mans free will is the stone too heavy for Him to lift ?? "
Could I have a scripture on that ???

God could certainly dislodge that moral stone if He wanted to, and by doing so abolish righteousness and compromise His own divine essence to boot, by stripping us of our free will. But if God did, we couldn't choose Him and properly love Him, could we? Nor could God be God. Without free will, love is a fiction. Without it we can neither choose nor reject God in light of a covenant which He has willed to establish. Israel foreshadows the covenant God has established with all of humanity in Christ who himself possesses human free will. Jesus couldn't have atoned for our sins without it or even serve as a model for us. Without it, we cannot properly emulate him which choosing God out of love for Him requires. Finally, a divine command or exhortation presupposes human free will and without it would be superfluous.

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live.
Deuteronomy 30, 19

Adam and Eve chose death which has been passed on to their offspring.

We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. But if anyone obeys his word, love for God is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.
1 John 2, 3-6

Men do think highly about themselves ..not only equal to God but superior ...
Sounds like many people have eaten the apple promising to make them as gods...
The error of 'free willism" is it does not understand that the grace of God draws us and makes us willing

No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.
1 Corinthians 10, 13

No commandment from God is too difficult for any human being to obey. Everyone has sufficient grace that enables them to direct their wills to what is good and pleasing to God. And to help everyone escape temptation which arises from our own desires, God grants His helping actual graces which, however, many choose to resist on account of their pride and inordinate self-love. Paul describes having faith as knowing what is good and right according to one's conscience and choosing to act upon it. In Hebrew thought, faith is having a steadfast love for God (His goodness and righteousness) which must surpass our love of self and desire for vain earthly things. Original sin is basically human selfishness which we can master by freely cooperating with divine grace.

He who conquers shall have this heritage, and I will be his God and he shall be my son.
Revelation 21, 7

Therefore take the whole armour of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
Ephesians 6, 13

Working together with him, then, we entreat you not to accept the grace of God in vain.
2 Corinthians 6, 1

Hosea 11:4
I led them with cords of human kindness, with ties of love. To them I was like one who lifts a little child to the cheek, and I bent down to feed them.

God's grace is always efficacious, but not to the preclusion of our free will. We can still fail even after having received grace, since it leaves room for failure; though grace itself never fails. God does not will to be the only one who decides whether we shall be saved. We ourselves have been granted the liberty to decide for ourselves. How we respond to the dispensation of God's grace is determined by our own decision. In the words of St. Thomas Aquinas: "The first cause of the defect of grace is on our part; but the first cause of the bestowal of grace is on God's according to Hosea 13:9: 'Destruction is thy own, O Israel; thy help is only in Me.' " (Summa Theologica, I-II, Q. 112, Article 3, Reply ).

"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing."
Matthew 23, 37

Jeremiah 31:3
The LORD appeared to us in the past, saying: "I have loved you with an everlasting love; I have drawn you with unfailing kindness.

This verse can be cross-referenced with Isaiah 45:17, Ephesians 2:4-5, and 2 Thessalonians 2:13-16 among several key others. Jeremiah 31 refers to Israel's deliverance from captivity in Babylon because of God's faithfulness in His covenant with His chosen people. But His elect are addressed as a corporate entity. Not one individual Israelite could know for sure that they were counted among the remnant who would be eternally saved. Likewise, Paul is addressing entire communities of believers in his letters. He tells the Ephesians that through God's love and mercy they "have been saved." However faithful God might be to His promises, Paul did not believe that their justification was a one-time and completed past event. Rather their justification was a present on-going process. We know this by reading his Second Letter to the Corinthians: 'For we are the aroma of Christ to God among those who are being saved" (2:15). Naturally, then, salvation has a third time dimension in Paul's soteriology: the future. Our salvation is something which we as individuals must freely work out for ourselves in order to attain it at the end of our lives. Paul writes in his Second Letter to Timothy: "If we endure, we shall reign with him" (2:12). Our salvation is conditional. It depends on how well we choose to cooperate with God's efficacious grace and persevere in faith, hope, and love so that our inner nature can be renewed "everyday" as we grow in perfection to be ready for the day of the Lord (cf. 2 Cor. 4:16; 1 Cor. 5:5). Indeed, Paul tells the Thessalonian community: 'God chose you as the first fruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. To this he called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.' This is qualified, however, by an exhortation which presupposes individual responsibility: 'So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter.' Our cooperation is imperative.

John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

This drawing is a continuous on-going process towards the certain attainment of our heavenly reward which is something our Lord exhorts us to hold on to so that we don't lose it.

"I am coming quickly; hold fast what you have, so that no one will take your crown."
Revelation 3, 11

Psa 110:3

Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

One has to have free will in order to be willing. It takes willingness to cooperate with divine grace.

PAX

rnmomof7 · Aug 13, 2015

error

Meowzltov · Aug 13, 2015

random person said:
The Garden of Eden is all about our standing before God.

The Garden of Eden is ALSO about our becoming morally sentient. I don't think God intended for us to remain morally like animals, not knowing good from evil. It was always his plan that we eat from the tree.

random person · Aug 13, 2015

Open Heart said:
The Garden of Eden is ALSO about our becoming morally sentient. I don't think God intended for us to remain morally like animals, not knowing good from evil. It was always his plan that we eat from the tree.

I agree, IMO, before the tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil was created, Christ was already in God's plans.

rnmomof7 · Aug 13, 2015

justinangel said:
You are confusing God's antecedent will with His consequent will. Not everything God desires is fulfilled. God desires that everyone be saved (antecedent will), though many souls are lost by their own fault (God's consequent will). God desires to save everyone on condition that they observe His commandments.

The Lord is not slow to fulfil his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.
2 Peter 3, 9

[/I]

Out of context quote... 2Peter is written to the church ...it refers to the end times .

When ever you see beloved it is written to the saved

In context

8
But, beloved be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

This is a promise that God will save all of His elect... USWARD

Then there couldn't have been a fall or a revolt. There must be liberty of human and angelic will for such events to happen.

Click to expand...

That is simply your opinion, not supported by the scriptures

God chose to create a world which has the potential to freely deviate from His good purpose.

Click to expand...

And that purpose was ????

Concupiscence of the eyes and of the flesh, and the pride of life arise out of a vacuum. Our inordinate self-love arises out of our God given ability to love. Our evil acts arise in opposition to our God given ability to do good by His sufficient grace. We have been placed here to be tested. God did not create Lucifer for the purpose of falling from heaven and subsequently tempting mankind. But God does use Satan to test our love for Him. All that transpires in the course of creation is immediately present and known to God. Evil is permitted for the sake of a greater good. Without this greater good in mind, God would not have created anything. Being in the position to choose to create anything or anyone, and knowing all things in the immediate eternal present, God can never compromise His sovereignty. Ultimately God is in control, but nonetheless He has willed to honour our freedom and use it for His good purpose. God could only depend on us if He hadn't created us. He willed to create us in such a way that our eternal destiny depends on how we decide to conduct our lives. Certainly God has not programmed human beings to mechanically act in such a way so that some should be saved and others be lost. Your idea of causality is too narrow and rigid, and thereby it morally indicts God for the sins of the whole world.

Click to expand...

Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.
James 1, 13
[/1]

Click to expand...

Lets look at some other scripture that explains temptation...

Indeed Satan does the tempting.. BUT Satan can do nothing without the permission of God (see Job)

Matthew 4
Jesus Is Tested in the Wilderness
4 Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted[a] by the devil. 2 After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry. 3 The tempter came to him and said, “If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.”

From the mouth of Jesus..who was tempted as we are

Matthew 6:13
…12'And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. 13And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from evil. For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.'14"For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.…

The betrayal of Judas was known by God when He created him. But God did not create Judas for the purpose of betraying Jesus or Pilate for the sake of having Jesus crucified. What God sees from outside the course of real time in the immediate eternal present God utilizes for a good purpose. What God knows, sees, wills, and executes are one single act with a design which includes the involvement of human free agency. Judas and Pilate were not designed in such a mechanical way that they couldn't choose otherwise. Human beings aren't dependent on physical laws like the planets orbiting the Sun are. They can do nothing but revolve.

For truly in this city there were gathered together against thy holy servant Jesus, whom thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever thy hand and thy plan had predestined to take place.
Acts 4, 27-28
[/I]

Click to expand...

John 6:70
Then Jesus replied, "Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!"

…1 Peter 1:20

17And if you call on the Father, who without respect of persons judges according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear: 18For as much as you know that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; 19But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20Who truly was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 21Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

As I've already pointed out above, the word predestinationis derived from the Greek word prooridzo which means God knows in advance what we will choose to do. It does not mean that God determines what we will do. What God decrees is based on His knowledge of us (even before we are born) which He utilises for a good purpose.

Click to expand...

Strong's Concordance
proorizó: to predetermine, foreordain
Original Word: προορίζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: proorizó
Phonetic Spelling: (pro-or-id'-zo)
Short Definition: I foreordain, predetermine
Definition: I foreordain, predetermine, mark out beforehand.
HELPS Word-studies
4309 proorízō (from 4253 /pró, "before" and 3724/horízō, "establish boundaries, limits") – properly, pre-horizon, pre-determine limits (boundaries) predestine.

[4309 (proorízō) occurs six times in the NT (eight in the writings of Paul). Since the root (3724/horízō) already means "establish boundaries," the added prefix (pro, "before") makes 4309 (proorízō) "to pre-establish boundaries," i.e. before creation.]

προέγνω (proegnō) — 2 Occurrences

Romans 8:29 V-AIA-3S
GRK: ὅτι οὓς προέγνω καὶ προώρισεν
NAS: For those whom He foreknew, He also
KJV: For whom he did foreknow, he also
INT: Because those whom he foreknew also he predestined [to be]

Romans 11:2 V-AIA-3S
GRK: αὐτοῦ ὃν προέγνω ἢ οὐκ
NAS: whom He foreknew. Or
KJV: people which he foreknew. Wot ye
INT: of him whom he foreknew or not

Two different words

There is no 'Yet'. You can't have it both ways. If God determined Judas to betray Jesus, Pilate to order the crucifixion of Jesus, and the Israelites to reject the Messiah, then they wouldn't be in the position of having to be forgiven. They couldn't possibly be at fault.

Click to expand...

Jesus did not ask they be forgiven.. He asked the soldiers that actually nailed him to the cross be forgiven....

"In order to understand this better theologians have come up with the term "compatibilism" to describe the concurrence of God's sovereignty and man's responsibility. Compatibilism is a form of determinism and it should be noted that this position is no less deterministic than hard determinism. It simply means that God's predetermination and meticulous providence is "compatible" with voluntary choice. Our choices are not coerced ...i.e. we do not choose against what we want or desire, yet we never make choices contrary to God's sovereign decree. What God determines will always come to pass (Eph 1:11)."

What God wills is that we love Him above all other things. Without free will, we cannot possibly love God and prove ourselves faithful by keeping His commandments. This is how God has ordered creation, and what we mean by His covenant, so His omnipotence can never be compromised. God would certainly compromise Himself if He allowed His omnipotence to negate His wisdom, goodness, and righteousness. If God were so mutable as you perceive Him to be, He couldn't be God. Immutability is a non-moral attribute of His.
"In light of Scripture, (according to compatibilism), human choices are exercised voluntarily but the desires and circumstances that bring about these choices about occur through divine determinism. For example, God is said to specifically ordain the crucifixion of His Son, and yet evil men willfully and voluntarily crucify Him (see Acts 2:23 & 4:27-28). This act of evil is not free from God's decree, but it is voluntary, and these men are thus responsible for the act, according to these Texts. Or when Joseph's brothers sold him into slavery in Egypt, Joseph later recounted that what his brothers intended for evil, God intended for good (Gen 50:20). God determines and ordains that these events will take place (that Joseph will be sold into slavery), yet the brothers voluntarily make the evil choice that beings it to pass, which means the sin is imputed to Joseph's brothers for the wicked act, and God remains blameless. In both of these cases, it could be said that God ordains sin, sinlessly. Nothing occurs apart from His sovereign good pleasure."
http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/qna/sovereignfree.html

If you love me, you will keep my commandments.
John 14, 15

God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. In this is love perfected with us, that we may have confidence for the day of judgment, because as he is so are we in this world. There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and he who fears is not perfected in love. We love, because he first loved us. If any one says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen. And this commandment we have from him, that he who loves God should love his brother also.
1 John 4, 16-21

Click to expand...

And????

God could certainly dislodge that moral stone if He wanted to, and by doing so abolish righteousness and compromise His own divine essence to boot, by stripping us of our free will. But if God did, we couldn't choose Him and properly love Him, could we? Nor could God be God. Without free will, love is a fiction. Without it we can neither choose nor reject God in light of a covenant which He has willed to establish. Israel foreshadows the covenant God has established with all of humanity in Christ who himself possesses human free will. Jesus couldn't have atoned for our sins without it or even serve as a model for us. Without it, we cannot properly emulate him which choosing God out of love for Him requires. Finally, a divine command or exhortation presupposes human free will and without it would be superfluous.

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live.
Deuteronomy 30, 19

Click to expand...

[/I]

All men have the ability to make choices.. but it is God that gives them the things to choose from.. and it is God that bends the will of men to His will .men make "free choices " within the confines and boundaries predetermined by God to accomplish His purposes,

Adam and Eve chose death which has been passed on to their offspring.

They chose just as God had predestined them to choose ...he was not surprised ..

No commandment from God is too difficult for any human being to obey. Everyone has sufficient grace that enables them to direct their wills to what is good and pleasing to God. And to help everyone escape temptation which arises from our own desires, God grants His helping actual graces which, however, many choose to resist on account of their pride and inordinate self-love. Paul describes having faith as knowing what is good and right according to one's conscience and choosing to act upon it. In Hebrew thought, faith is having a steadfast love for God (His goodness and righteousness) which must surpass our love of self and desire for vain earthly things. Original sin is basically human selfishness which we can master by freely cooperating with divine grace.

I Take that to mean you are sinless ... You did not need a savior.. you saved yourself . congratulations ... I need a Savior daily ...

Mark 2:17 Jesus said to them, "It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick; I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

God's grace is always efficacious, but not to the preclusion of our free will. We can still fail even after having received grace, since it leaves room for failure; though grace itself never fails. God does not will to be the only one who decides whether we shall be saved. We ourselves have been granted the liberty to decide for ourselves. How we respond to the dispensation of God's grace is determined by our own decision. In the words of St. Thomas Aquinas: "The first cause of the defect of grace is on our part; but the first cause of the bestowal of grace is on God's according to Hosea 13:9: 'Destruction is thy own, O Israel; thy help is only in Me.' " (Summa Theologica, I-II, Q. 112, Article 3, Reply ).

"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing."
Matthew 23, 37

Poor God ... waiting on men to tell Him what they will do... man is sovereign over your hapless god .

John 15:16

You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and
bear fruit--fruit that will last-

Jhn 15:19

If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

Act 1:24

And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,

One has to have free will in order to be willing. It takes willingness to cooperate with divine grace.

PAX

Click to expand...

Psa 110:3

Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

The wonder of Gods grace is that it makes us "willing" it causes us to run for Him ... no "forcing" ..His grace makes willing

justinangel · Aug 15, 2015

rnmomof7 said:
Out of context quote... 2Peter is written to the church ...it refers to the end times .
When ever you see beloved it is written to the saved

In context

8 But, beloved be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

This is a promise that God will save all of His elect.

This verse is eschatological, but it makes no difference. Although Peter is addressing either a particular church or a close association of churches, he is referring to both believers and unbelievers, both of whom comprise humanity. Certainly Peter did not presume that each individual in the church or within the association of churches was predestined to glory. But I'm sure he did understand that the elect were counted among the believers, though who they were God could only know. The gist of this passage is that God is unwilling that any should perish, and that in His divine mercy he patiently waits for as many blind and sinful people there might be to repent of their sins before the Parousia. Moreover, Peter warned his congregations that any member would fare worse off on the day of the Lord than they would have before they converted if they happened to eventually fall away and get entangled once again in a life of sin.

For if after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment delivered to them. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A dog returns to its own vomit," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire."
2 Peter 2, 20-22

True, God will save all of his elect, but not all who are predestined to grace, such as the community of believers Peter addresses, are necessarily predestined to glory. Neither Peter nor Paul believed that each individual in the churches they addressed was predestined to glory. Paul warned the believers in Corinth: "Let any one who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall" (2 Cor. 10:12). And to everyone who belonged to the church at Rome: "For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you" (Rom. 11:21). Not everyone who is grafted to the branch shall remain grafted to it. Many believers shall be cut off until the coming of the Lord. It appears that even at this time there were Christians who held a false assurance of their salvation which compelled Paul to admonish them.

First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires everyone [all men] to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
1 Timothy 2, 1-4

My little children, I am writing this to you so that you may not sin; but if any one does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and he is the expiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 John 2, 1-2

That is simply your opinion, not supported by the scriptures.

Judging by the definition of the word 'revolt', one can only infer that the subject has a free will. Obviously this doesn't square with your illogical misinterpretation of the Scriptures.

And that purpose was ????

What God had in mind was our achieving our proper end, viz. our intellectual capacities of understanding God and directing our will towards God by conforming it with His will. As I see it, Adam and Eve were originally created perfect in this way, but they were not created absolutely perfect, since they had the potential to freely fall short of achieving their purpose. God knew this potential to fall short from perfection would be actualised, since He alone is absolutely perfect, but He created Adam and Eve nevertheless in view of the coming of Christ and the hope of redemption. God allowed the fall to happen, but it was Satan who devised it. God did blame the serpent for what it had wrought. 'And the LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this, you are cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; on your belly shall you go, and dust shall you eat all the days of your life'" (Gen 3:14). So the devil could not have been acting as God's agent to ensure that the fall should happen so that the Messiah could come into the world. Our Lord and Saviour's coming was necessary only because of the fall of man. The fall was not infallibly predetermined or necessitated by God so that He could send His only Son to save the world. It was not prearranged, so to speak, since God knows all things which may transpire in the course of real time in the immediate eternal present. The fall would have been a total disaster if it were not for the hope of redemption, and so God permitted what he knew would happen. But God still would have created humankind even if He knew it would not fall. Why, might we ask, did God create us? Was it to feed His ego, as you make it out to be? God surely didn't create us because He needed us in some way. I can think of three reasons which redound to His glory: God's love for us, our reciprocal love for God, and our love for our neighbour which the Torah and the perfect law of freedom written in our hearts embody.

Lets look at some other scripture that explains temptation... Indeed Satan does the tempting.. BUT Satan can do nothing without the permission of God (see Job)

Exactly. God allows Satan to tempt us to test our faith in Him. The devil serves to test the steadfastness of our love for God. Since Satan is given permission, we can safely assume that he wilfully tempts us for his own purpose - the destruction of our souls. Yet this is not God’s intention. Double predestination is unbiblical.

Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? Says the Lord GOD: and not that he should turn from his ways, and live?
Ezekiel 18, 23

For truly in this city there were gathered together against thy holy servant Jesus, whom thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever thy hand and thy plan had predestined to take place.

Acts 4, 27-28

…1 Peter 1:20
17And if you call on the Father, who without respect of persons judges according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear: 18For as much as you know that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; 19But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20Who truly was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 21Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

See below: defining the word proorizo.

John 6:70

Then Jesus replied, "Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!"

This verse just goes to show that not everyone who is predestined to grace will persevere to the end. And, please, don't beg the question by saying that Judas was never saved in the first place. It's just another fallacy spawned by your belief in salvation by sola fide. There are countless exhortations in the NT for entire communities of believers to persevere in faith, which makes no sense by begging this question. God is not responsible for our own choices.

Strong's Concordance

proorizó: to predetermine, foreordain
Original Word: προορίζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: proorizó
Phonetic Spelling: (pro-or-id'-zo)
Short Definition: I foreordain, predetermine
Definition: I foreordain, predetermine, mark out beforehand.

HELPS Word-studies

4309 proorízō (from 4253 /pró, "before" and 3724/horízō, "establish boundaries, limits") – properly, pre-horizon, pre-determine limits (boundaries) predestine.
[4309 (proorízō) occurs six times in the NT (eight in the writings of Paul). Since the root (3724/horízō) already means "establish boundaries," the added prefix (pro, "before") makes 4309 (proorízō) "to pre-establish boundaries," i.e. before creation.]
προέγνω (proegnō) — 2 Occurrences

Romans 8:29 V-AIA-3S
GRK: ὅτι οὓς προέγνω καὶ προώρισεν
NAS: For those whom He foreknew, He also
KJV: For whom he did foreknow, he also
INT: Because those whom he foreknew also he predestined [to be]

Romans 11:2 V-AIA-3S
GRK: αὐτοῦ ὃν προέγνω ἢ οὐκ
NAS: whom He foreknew. Or
KJV: people which he foreknew. Wot ye
INT: of him whom he foreknew or not

Two different words

The word, proorizo, which is translated as "predestinate" means 'to determine or appoint ahead of time'. And it does not mean to predestine in the sense that God arbitrarily destines someone for a particular fate: salvation or condemnation. There is another word [eklektos] which is translated as either 'chosen' or 'elect'. Thus God did not choose or elect any particular individuals or people to act or rise against Jesus in order to predestine them to damnation. Any appointment ahead of time is for those whom God foreknew would choose to act as they might. Those who have been appointed (anointed) have been so based on God's foreknowledge of the decisions they would make. This in no way thwarts their free will. 'Predestine' or 'predestinate' has a prefix that means 'ahead of time'. It's suffix means 'destine' or 'destiny'. Destiny implies an inevitable course of events. But that does not mean the person cannot resist the appointment. It simply means that the course of events cannot fail. If the planner (God) infallibly knows how Judas, Herod, or Pilate will decide to act, then the appointment cannot fail. It is, so to speak, determined. But what God foreknows does not causally determine how these people decide to act. Thus the one who is predetermining or planning is not the only one who is determining. Nothing in this word indicates that there are no corresponding decisions on the part of these individuals that have them appointed. Proorizo does not require or even suggest exclusive causality. They do not act the way they do because God has caused them to by predetermining their behaviour for the purpose of eternally damning them.

"In order to understand this better theologians have come up with the term "compatibilism" to describe the concurrence of God's sovereignty and man's responsibility. Compatibilism is a form of determinism and it should be noted that this position is no less deterministic than hard determinism. It simply means that God's predetermination and meticulous providence is "compatible" with voluntary choice. Our choices are not coerced ...i.e. we do not choose against what we want or desire, yet we never make choices contrary to God's sovereign decree. What God determines will always come to pass (Eph 1:11)."

Click to expand...

Compatibilism is a very problematic belief in Calvinism with regard to the argument from grace (monergism) in that logically man becomes 100% responsible along with God for his salvation just as both God and man are 100% responsible for his damnation. The argument from (imputed) grace has you 0% responsible for your salvation and God 100% responsible for it.

"In light of Scripture, (according to compatibilism), human choices are exercised voluntarily but the desires and circumstances that bring about these choices about occur through divine determinism. For example, God is said to specifically ordain the crucifixion of His Son, and yet evil men willfully and voluntarily crucify Him (see Acts 2:23 & 4:27-28). This act of evil is not free from God's decree, but it is voluntary, and these men are thus responsible for the act, according to these Texts. Or when Joseph's brothers sold him into slavery in Egypt, Joseph later recounted that what his brothers intended for evil, God intended for good (Gen 50:20). God determines and ordains that these events will take place (that Joseph will be sold into slavery), yet the brothers voluntarily make the evil choice that beings it to pass, which means the sin is imputed to Joseph's brothers for the wicked act, and God remains blameless. In both of these cases, it could be said that God ordains sin, sinlessly. Nothing occurs apart from His sovereign good pleasure."http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/qna/sovereignfre

Click to expand...

All men have the ability to make choices.. but it is God that gives them the things to choose from.. and it is God that bends the will of men to His will .men make "free choices " within the confines and boundaries predetermined by God to accomplish His purposes.

Again, every event is 100% caused by God and 100% caused by man. If this is how God works, as also in the event of the good Samaritan in the Gospel, both God and man are 100% responsible for his salvation. One is damned for his wicked deeds or saved for his good deeds by God's decree. As I see it, both the cause of salvation and the cause of damnation rest in God's decree and man's choice. However, human merit and demerit appear to be excluded from this system, since there doesn't seem to be any genuine cooperation between God and man (synergism). Events are intentionally ordered by God to either provoke wicked men or prompt good men to act as they do in a situation. This is indeed a soft form of determinism and still somewhat fatalistic. It is also unbiblical. God might allow certain events to happen in order to test us, but He doesn't order them to compel us to act in a way he expects us to either to satisfy His mercy or justice.

God will not allow us to be tempted above our ability to bear it
1 Corinthians 10, 13

For the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all men.
Titus 2, 11

'We not only do not believe that any are foreordained to evil by the power of God, but even state with utter abhorrence that if there are those who want to believe so evil a thing, they are anathema.'
Council of Orange (529 AD)

They chose just as God had predestined them to choose ...he was not surprised ..

They chose just as God knew they would, and so it should come to pass.

I Take that to mean you are sinless ... You did not need a savior.. you saved yourself . congratulations ... I need a Savior daily ...

What ever gave you that idea?

So you need a saviour daily! Are you leaning towards the idea of progressive justification?

Poor God ... waiting on men to tell Him what they will do... man is sovereign over your hapless god .

God doesn't have to wait for us to tell Him anything. He already knows what we will do. And what He decrees is in accord with His knowledge of us from before the foundation of the world.

My frame was not hidden from you
when I was made in the secret place,
when I was woven together in the depths of the earth.
Your eyes saw my unformed body;
all the days for me were written in your book
before one of them came to be.
How precious to me are your thoughts,
How vast is the sum of them!
Psalm 139, 15-17

PAX

rnmomof7 · Aug 15, 2015

Jerome (A.D. 390): “This is the chief righteousness of man, to reckon that whatsoever power he can have, is not his own, but the Lord’s who gives it…See how great is the help of God, and how frail the condition of man that we cannot by any means fulfill this, that we repent, unless the Lord first convert us…When [Jesus] says, ‘No man can come to Me,’ He breaks the proud liberty of free will; for man can desire nothing, and in vain he endeavors…Where is the proud boasting of free will?…We pray in vain if it is in our own will. Why should men pray for that from the Lord which they have in the power of their own free will?”
Augustine: “Of these believers no one perishes, because they were all elected. And they were elected because they were called according to the purpose–the purpose, however, not their own, but God’s…Obedience then is God’s gift…To this, indeed, we are not able to deny, that perseverance in good, progressing even to the end, is also a great gift of God.”

Tell me Catholic friend does sin send someone to hell or does Gods grace save sinners ?

justinangel · Aug 24, 2015

rnmomof7 said:
Jerome (A.D. 390): “This is the chief righteousness of man, to reckon that whatsoever power he can have, is not his own, but the Lord’s who gives it…See how great is the help of God, and how frail the condition of man that we cannot by any means fulfill this, that we repent, unless the Lord first convert us…When [Jesus] says, ‘No man can come to Me,’ He breaks the proud liberty of free will; for man can desire nothing, and in vain he endeavors…Where is the proud boasting of free will?…We pray in vain if it is in our own will. Why should men pray for that from the Lord which they have in the power of their own free will?”

Augustine: “Of these believers no one perishes, because they were all elected. And they were elected because they were called according to the purpose–the purpose, however, not their own, but God’s…Obedience then is God’s gift…To this, indeed, we are not able to deny, that perseverance in good, progressing even to the end, is also a great gift of God.”

Canon 23. Concerning the will of God and of man. Men do their own will and not the will of God when they do what displeases him; but when they follow their own will and comply with the will of God, however willingly they do so, yet it is his will by which what they will is both prepared and instructed.

Conclusion

"According to the catholic faith we also believe that after grace has been received through baptism, all baptized persons have the ability and responsibility, if they desire to labor faithfully, to perform with the aid and cooperation of Christ what is of essential importance in regard to the salvation of their soul. We not only do not believe that any are foreordained to evil by the power of God, but even state with utter abhorrence that if there are those who want to believe so evil a thing, they are anathema. We also believe and confess to our benefit that in every good work it is not we who take the initiative and are then assisted through the mercy of God, but God himself first inspires in us both faith in him and love for him without any previous good works of our own that deserve reward (operative grace), so that we may both faithfully seek the sacrament of baptism, and after baptism be able by his help (cooperative grace) to do what is pleasing to him."
Council of Orange [A.D. 529]

The early Church Fathers taught that free will is an essential part of our human nature, and that whenever we freely choose to sin, we abuse our free will. Augustine taught that God's sufficient or prevenient grace enables us to direct our wills to what is good, though it doesn't operate to determine our actions. In the above citations, Jerome and Augustine are referring to this operative grace without which we wouldn't have the ability to choose to do good and cooperate with God's efficacious actual graces such as conversion, repentance, and final perseverance. God's grace prompts us not only to convert, but also to pray for the graces we need to live a supernatural life, but we still have the ability and freedom to resist these actual graces because of our own stubbornness of heart which enslaves the will. God's prevenient grace serves to liberate the will from the snares of the flesh by enabling the will to direct itself to what is good and pleasing to God.

Irenaeus writes: "“Forasmuch as all men are of the same nature, having power to hold and to do that which is good, and having power again to lose it, and not to do what is right; before men of sense, (and how much more before God!) some… are justly accused, and receive condign punishment, because they refuse what is just and right.” And again: " “Those who do not do it [good] will receive the just judgment of God, because they had not work good when they had it in their power to do so. But if some had been made by nature bad, and others good, these latter would not be deserving of praise for being good, for they were created that way. Nor would the former be reprehensible, for that is how they were made. However, all men are of the same nature. They are all able to hold fast and to go what is good. On the other hand, they have the power to cast good from them and not to do it.” Irenaeus is contending against the Gnostics who believed and taught that there were two kinds of natures in us: good and bad. How we acted was determined by which nature predominated at the moment beyond our control. But if this were true, then, as Irenaeus asserts, we could not rightly be praised or condemned for our actions, since we could not be morally responsible for them if we had no ability to either will to do good or bad, but acted purely in a mechanistic way. Origen had the same Gnostics in mind when he wrote: "The Scriptures…emphasize the freedom of the will. They condemn those who sin, and approve those who do right… We are responsible for being bad and worthy of being cast outside. For it is not the nature in us that is the cause of the evil; rather, it is the voluntary choice that works evil.” If these two Church Fathers were alive in the 16th century, they would have condemned the false Calvinistic doctrine of Total Depravity on the same grounds. It is not a totally depraved nature that physically causes us to sin, but rather our abuse of free will and decision to commit an evil act despite our God given ability to direct our will to what is good with the help of His actual graces.

As true Catholics, Jerome and Augustine would also have believed that the fall of Lucifer and the sin of Adam and Eve could not have occurred if they didn't have free will. For them sin presupposed the existence of free will and did not necessarily imply a totally depraved or evil nature. Sin itself as a personal act was the result of a moral decision - not the determined effect of an evil or totally depraved nature which held the will in complete bondage. Lucifer, Adam, and Eve were created perfect by God, though not absolutely perfect. They had the potential to disobey God, but they weren't designed so that they would necessarily disobey Him to suit His purpose. They were created good, but as autonomous beings they had the potential to abuse the free will God had given them on account of their pride and inordinate self-love. In the time of Jerome and Augustine, the Gnostics and Manicheans taught that we sin necessarily because of our defective nature and inability to freely choose not to sin when we are tempted. In other words, free will is not part of our natural constitution. We necessarily sin because we have no free will. For that reason Jerome retorted: "Free will ... Let the man who condemns it be condemned." Not unlike the earlier Eastern Fathers, Jerome and Augustine believed that, although not totally corrupt, man had an inclination to sin possessing a tarnished or wounded nature. What they didn't believe was that man lost his free will to choose between right and wrong through the fall of Adam. The loss of man's free will was not part of the consequences of original sin. Adam and Eve couldn't have sinned or even been tempted by the serpent if such a strict causation or divine necessity was the root of the fall.

Thus with Augustine we have grace properly divided into operative (sufficient) and cooperative (efficacious) grace. “God Himself works so that we may will at the beginning what, once we are willing, He cooperates in perfecting; therefore does the Apostle say: ‘Being confident of this very thing, that He who hath begun a good work in you, will perfect it unto the day of Christ Jesus’ (Phil. 1:6). That we should will therefore, He accomplishes without us; but when we do will, and so will as to do, He cooperates with us” (De gratia et libero arbitrio, chap. 17). Operative grace is that prevenient or sufficient grace given to all men that morally prompts the will. It is the God-given ability to freely direct the will to what is good and necessary for salvation. Cooperative or efficacious grace serves to assist the will in the right direction. If man were totally depraved, as Calvin erroneously believed, and could not freely choose to do good with the help of God's grace, then his free cooperation couldn't have any part to play in his salvation, for God would be operating his will like a machine. In fact, nothing he chose to do in charity and grace could lead to it. But neither Augustine nor Jerome believed and taught that.

But since in the Law no one is justified before God, it is evident that the just man lives by faith.' It should be noted that he does not say that a man, a person, lives by faith, lest it be thought that he is condemning good works. Rather, he says the 'just' man lives by faith. He implies thereby that whoever would be faithful and would conduct his life according to the faith can in no other way arrive at the faith or live in it except first he be a just man of pure life, coming up to the faith by certain degrees."
Jerome, Commentaries on Galatians 2:3:11 [A.D. 386]

"He was handed over for our offenses, and he rose again for our justification." What does this mean, "for our justification?" So that he might justify us, so that he might make us just. You will be a work of God, not only because you are a man, but also because you are just. For it is better that you be just than that you are a man. If God made you a man, and you made yourself just, something you were doing would be better than what God did. But God made you without any cooperation on your part. You did not lend your consent so that God could make you. How could you have consented, when you did not exist? But he who made you without your consent does not justify you without your consent. He made you without your knowledge, but he does not justify you without your willing it."
Augustine, Sermons 169:13 [inter A.D. 391-430]

Tell me Catholic friend does sin send someone to hell or does Gods grace save sinners?

The accepted Catholic view which I hold, as decreed by the Council of Orange in its response to Pelagianism and Predestinarianism, and ratified by the Council of Trent in the wake of the Protestant heresies, is that predestination fundamentally involves the free choice of each living individual. Those who consent to the will of God and persevere to the end by cooperating with the Holy Spirit shall be saved and find their names in the Book of Life just as God knew before the foundation of the world who His elect are. Those who refuse their assent to the will of God and choose to resist His subsequent grace preferring to live a life in opposition to God's commandments shall be condemned to Hell just as God always knew, when He blotted their names out of the Book of Life before the foundation of the world, who the reprobates are. (Note that there aren't 2 books - one for the elect and another for the reprobates - in Revelations, but only 1 book for all mankind.) The free gift of prevenient or sufficient grace enables the will of every human being to make fully free choices: to do good or evil, to commit sin or avoid sin; to repent or refuse to repent (the unpardonable sin against the Holy Spirit). Both grace and free will are fundamental to predestination, since prevenient grace enables the will to either cooperate with or resist God's subsequent efficacious grace which helps us to get to Heaven. God infallibly knows who shall be saved and who shall be condemned. But God's foreknowledge does not determine our eternal destiny.

Our final destination is determined by our free choices, made so by God's prevenient grace which enables us to freely choose what is good despite what wickedness we might prefer on account of our tarnished nature and the influence of temptation which we all have the power to resist as well with the help of God's subsequent grace, provided we don't freely resist that as we may resist the voice of our conscience which alerts the will in its natural direction towards the good. Despite the fall, man is still created in God's image, which requires free will. And despite original sin, human nature is still essentially good however wounded. Meanwhile none of us can know with absolute certainty whether we are counted among the elect. Faith in Christ's redeeming merits alone is not enough to assure our salvation. Paul exhorts us to work out our salvation in fear and trembling and not to presume where we firmly stand lest we fall.

"But we know that God does not hear sinners: but if any man is a worshiper of God and does his will, that man God will hear. He still speaks as one only anointed. For God does listen to sinners too. If God did not listen to sinners, it would have been all in vain for the publican to cast down his eyes to the ground and strike his breast saying: "Lord, be merciful to me, a sinner." And that confession merited justification, just as the blind man merited enlightenment."
Augustine, Homilies on the Gospel of John 44:13 [A.D. 416]

PAX

rnmomof7 · Aug 26, 2015

justinangel said:
Canon 23. Concerning the will of God and of man. Men do their own will and not the will of God when they do what displeases him; but when they follow their own will and comply with the will of God, however willingly they do so, yet it is his will by which what they will is both prepared and instructed.

Conclusion

"According to the catholic faith we also believe that after grace has been received through baptism, all baptized persons have the ability and responsibility, if they desire to labor faithfully, to perform with the aid and cooperation of Christ what is of essential importance in regard to the salvation of their soul. We not only do not believe that any are foreordained to evil by the power of God, but even state with utter abhorrence that if there are those who want to believe so evil a thing, they are anathema. We also believe and confess to our benefit that in every good work it is not we who take the initiative and are then assisted through the mercy of God, but God himself first inspires in us both faith in him and love for him without any previous good works of our own that deserve reward (operative grace), so that we may both faithfully seek the sacrament of baptism, and after baptism be able by his help (cooperative grace) to do what is pleasing to him."
Council of Orange [A.D. 529]

The early Church Fathers taught that free will is an essential part of our human nature, and that whenever we freely choose to sin, we abuse our free will. Augustine taught that God's sufficient or prevenient grace enables us to direct our wills to what is good, though it doesn't operate to determine our actions. In the above citations, Jerome and Augustine are referring to this operative grace without which we wouldn't have the ability to choose to do good and cooperate with God's efficacious actual graces such as conversion, repentance, and final perseverance. God's grace prompts us not only to convert, but also to pray for the graces we need to live a supernatural life, but we still have the ability and freedom to resist these actual graces because of our own stubbornness of heart which enslaves the will. God's prevenient grace serves to liberate the will from the snares of the flesh by enabling the will to direct itself to what is good and pleasing to God.

Irenaeus writes: "“Forasmuch as all men are of the same nature, having power to hold and to do that which is good, and having power again to lose it, and not to do what is right; before men of sense, (and how much more before God!) some… are justly accused, and receive condign punishment, because they refuse what is just and right.” And again: " “Those who do not do it [good] will receive the just judgment of God, because they had not work good when they had it in their power to do so. But if some had been made by nature bad, and others good, these latter would not be deserving of praise for being good, for they were created that way. Nor would the former be reprehensible, for that is how they were made. However, all men are of the same nature. They are all able to hold fast and to go what is good. On the other hand, they have the power to cast good from them and not to do it.” Irenaeus is contending against the Gnostics who believed and taught that there were two kinds of natures in us: good and bad. How we acted was determined by which nature predominated at the moment beyond our control. But if this were true, then, as Irenaeus asserts, we could not rightly be praised or condemned for our actions, since we could not be morally responsible for them if we had no ability to either will to do good or bad, but acted purely in a mechanistic way. Origen had the same Gnostics in mind when he wrote: "The Scriptures…emphasize the freedom of the will. They condemn those who sin, and approve those who do right… We are responsible for being bad and worthy of being cast outside. For it is not the nature in us that is the cause of the evil; rather, it is the voluntary choice that works evil.” If these two Church Fathers were alive in the 16th century, they would have condemned the false Calvinistic doctrine of Total Depravity on the same grounds. It is not a totally depraved nature that physically causes us to sin, but rather our abuse of free will and decision to commit an evil act despite our God given ability to direct our will to what is good with the help of His actual graces.

As true Catholics, Jerome and Augustine would also have believed that the fall of Lucifer and the sin of Adam and Eve could not have occurred if they didn't have free will. For them sin presupposed the existence of free will and did not necessarily imply a totally depraved or evil nature. Sin itself as a personal act was the result of a moral decision - not the determined effect of an evil or totally depraved nature which held the will in complete bondage. Lucifer, Adam, and Eve were created perfect by God, though not absolutely perfect. They had the potential to disobey God, but they weren't designed so that they would necessarily disobey Him to suit His purpose. They were created good, but as autonomous beings they had the potential to abuse the free will God had given them on account of their pride and inordinate self-love. In the time of Jerome and Augustine, the Gnostics and Manicheans taught that we sin necessarily because of our defective nature and inability to freely choose not to sin when we are tempted. In other words, free will is not part of our natural constitution. We necessarily sin because we have no free will. For that reason Jerome retorted: "Free will ... Let the man who condemns it be condemned." Not unlike the earlier Eastern Fathers, Jerome and Augustine believed that, although not totally corrupt, man had an inclination to sin possessing a tarnished or wounded nature. What they didn't believe was that man lost his free will to choose between right and wrong through the fall of Adam. The loss of man's free will was not part of the consequences of original sin. Adam and Eve couldn't have sinned or even been tempted by the serpent if such a strict causation or divine necessity was the root of the fall.

Thus with Augustine we have grace properly divided into operative (sufficient) and cooperative (efficacious) grace. “God Himself works so that we may will at the beginning what, once we are willing, He cooperates in perfecting; therefore does the Apostle say: ‘Being confident of this very thing, that He who hath begun a good work in you, will perfect it unto the day of Christ Jesus’ (Phil. 1:6). That we should will therefore, He accomplishes without us; but when we do will, and so will as to do, He cooperates with us” (De gratia et libero arbitrio, chap. 17). Operative grace is that prevenient or sufficient grace given to all men that morally prompts the will. It is the God-given ability to freely direct the will to what is good and necessary for salvation. Cooperative or efficacious grace serves to assist the will in the right direction. If man were totally depraved, as Calvin erroneously believed, and could not freely choose to do good with the help of God's grace, then his free cooperation couldn't have any part to play in his salvation, for God would be operating his will like a machine. In fact, nothing he chose to do in charity and grace could lead to it. But neither Augustine nor Jerome believed and taught that.

But since in the Law no one is justified before God, it is evident that the just man lives by faith.' It should be noted that he does not say that a man, a person, lives by faith, lest it be thought that he is condemning good works. Rather, he says the 'just' man lives by faith. He implies thereby that whoever would be faithful and would conduct his life according to the faith can in no other way arrive at the faith or live in it except first he be a just man of pure life, coming up to the faith by certain degrees."
Jerome, Commentaries on Galatians 2:3:11 [A.D. 386]

"He was handed over for our offenses, and he rose again for our justification." What does this mean, "for our justification?" So that he might justify us, so that he might make us just. You will be a work of God, not only because you are a man, but also because you are just. For it is better that you be just than that you are a man. If God made you a man, and you made yourself just, something you were doing would be better than what God did. But God made you without any cooperation on your part. You did not lend your consent so that God could make you. How could you have consented, when you did not exist? But he who made you without your consent does not justify you without your consent. He made you without your knowledge, but he does not justify you without your willing it."
Augustine, Sermons 169:13 [inter A.D. 391-430]

The accepted Catholic view which I hold, as decreed by the Council of Orange in its response to Pelagianism and Predestinarianism, and ratified by the Council of Trent in the wake of the Protestant heresies, is that predestination fundamentally involves the free choice of each living individual. Those who consent to the will of God and persevere to the end by cooperating with the Holy Spirit shall be saved and find their names in the Book of Life just as God knew before the foundation of the world who His elect are. Those who refuse their assent to the will of God and choose to resist His subsequent grace preferring to live a life in opposition to God's commandments shall be condemned to Hell just as God always knew, when He blotted their names out of the Book of Life before the foundation of the world, who the reprobates are. (Note that there aren't 2 books - one for the elect and another for the reprobates - in Revelations, but only 1 book for all mankind.) The free gift of prevenient or sufficient grace enables the will of every human being to make fully free choices: to do good or evil, to commit sin or avoid sin; to repent or refuse to repent (the unpardonable sin against the Holy Spirit). Both grace and free will are fundamental to predestination, since prevenient grace enables the will to either cooperate with or resist God's subsequent efficacious grace which helps us to get to Heaven. God infallibly knows who shall be saved and who shall be condemned. But God's foreknowledge does not determine our eternal destiny.

Our final destination is determined by our free choices, made so by God's prevenient grace which enables us to freely choose what is good despite what wickedness we might prefer on account of our tarnished nature and the influence of temptation which we all have the power to resist as well with the help of God's subsequent grace, provided we don't freely resist that as we may resist the voice of our conscience which alerts the will in its natural direction towards the good. Despite the fall, man is still created in God's image, which requires free will. And despite original sin, human nature is still essentially good however wounded. Meanwhile none of us can know with absolute certainty whether we are counted among the elect. Faith in Christ's redeeming merits alone is not enough to assure our salvation. Paul exhorts us to work out our salvation in fear and trembling and not to presume where we firmly stand lest we fall.

"But we know that God does not hear sinners: but if any man is a worshiper of God and does his will, that man God will hear. He still speaks as one only anointed. For God does listen to sinners too. If God did not listen to sinners, it would have been all in vain for the publican to cast down his eyes to the ground and strike his breast saying: "Lord, be merciful to me, a sinner." And that confession merited justification, just as the blind man merited enlightenment."
Augustine, Homilies on the Gospel of John 44:13 [A.D. 416]

PAX

Does sin send someone to hell ?

justinangel · Aug 28, 2015

rnmomof7 said:
Does sin send someone to hell ?

The souls of those who die in the state of mortal sin (distinguished from venial sin) descend into Hell immediately after death.

'Mortal sin destroys charity in the heart of man by a grave violation of God's law; it turns man away from God, who is his ultimate end and his beatitude, by preferring an inferior good to him....

Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself. It results in the loss of charity and the privation of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace. If it is not redeemed by repentance and God's forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ's kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back.'

Catechism of the Catholic Church, 1855 & 1861

He who does not love abides in death.
1 John 3:14

And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Revelation 20:12-15

The souls consigned to Hell belong to those who preferred not to abide in God's love. They refused to follow that standard of love which we should have for one another provided by God in Jesus' love for us. Any person who does not live by this divine standard rejects God and does not live in Him. We abide in God's love by obeying His commandments. Unless we do abide in God's love, we have no confidence before Him on the Day of Judgment and should fear His justice.

So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. By this is love perfected with us, so that we may have confidence for the day of judgment, because as he is so also are we in this world. There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love.
1 John 4:16-18

PAX

rnmomof7 · Aug 29, 2015

justinangel said:
The souls of those who die in the state of mortal sin (distinguished from venial sin) descend into Hell immediately after death.

'Mortal sin destroys charity in the heart of man by a grave violation of God's law; it turns man away from God, who is his ultimate end and his beatitude, by preferring an inferior good to him....

Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself. It results in the loss of charity and the privation of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace. If it is not redeemed by repentance and God's forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ's kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back.'

Catechism of the Catholic Church, 1855 & 1861

He who does not love abides in death.
1 John 3:14

And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Revelation 20:12-15

The souls consigned to Hell belong to those who preferred not to abide in God's love. They refused to follow that standard of love which we should have for one another provided by God in Jesus' love for us. Any person who does not live by this divine standard rejects God and does not live in Him. We abide in God's love by obeying His commandments. Unless we do abide in God's love, we have no confidence before Him on the Day of Judgment and should fear His justice.

So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. By this is love perfected with us, so that we may have confidence for the day of judgment, because as he is so also are we in this world. There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love.
1 John 4:16-18

PAX

So sad that dying on the cross was such wasting suffering for Jesus..

Meowzltov · Aug 29, 2015

rnmomof7 said:
So sad that dying on the cross was such wasting suffering for Jesus.. googletag.cmd.push(function() { googletag.display('div-gpt-ad-1431698694306-1'); });

This doesn't follow the statement that was made.

God ordained the Fall

Well-Known Member

Newbie

Freylekher Yid

Legend

Well-Known Member

Newbie

Legend

1 COR. 10:11; HEB. 1:2; HEB. 9:26,28; 1 PET. 1:20

Newbie

Legend

Freylekher Yid

1 COR. 10:11; HEB. 1:2; HEB. 9:26,28; 1 PET. 1:20

Legend

Newbie

Legend

Newbie

Legend

Newbie

Legend

Freylekher Yid

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency