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God ordained sin? [split from Adam/Eve thread in Origins]

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]RiSeN[

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A quick comment on your posts #78,#79. I noticed in both those hefty posts not one scripture is sited. And that you have a leaning towards the theatrical. Also it appears you have no theological training or discernment, in fact I would go so far as to ask if you have even read the Bible in its entirety. I think, from what you have written, that the answer is no.
 
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Ben12

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And you are the one to talk; where is the scripture I asked for? If you give me one there is no substance to the subject matter. You cherry pick scripture I have given (evil) you and try to explain them how you see it; using your bias not scripture. Then I keep asking you for a scripture and all that matters to you is your preconceived idea; Freewill?
 
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]RiSeN[

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Its plain for anyone reading this thread that you have refused to acknowledge every scripture and reasoning that has proved your ideas to be misinformed or flat out false.

At this point however, your continued incredulousness is not for a lack of information , reason or truth, but more and more apparent from self-willed denial.

One only has to look at posts #78,79 to see that, although you seemed quite convinced that Holy Spirit speaks through you, you posts do not reflect the word of God "For God is a God, not of disorder, but of peace." - 1Cor 14:33


And you might be disappointed to learn that the jargon you spring forth is nothing of a new revelation nor is it original. You boast of your separation from church and religion yet you have held on to the same superstitions and myths that have led them into apostacy.

And again, your only answer to the reason and truth presented to you is a fanatical blind faith built upon the sand causing you to rehash the same rhetoric you've stolen from others.

And you have the nerve to accuse whilst you stand in the mire of your own intellectual dishonesty...

Good day.
 
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Ben12

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You have not given NO scriptures to acknowledge; and all that you share has to do with your religious bias and not God’s Word. Where is this freewill you so tightly proclaim in scripture? You are upset that I have separated my self from the church or religion, I have because of people just like you; blinded by your religion; and following unscriptual words like freewill.

Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. (KJV)

That is you religion Baby-lon (note spelling) There are two churches in the Bible; Baby-lon and the true church; which is Christ with in all of us (I did not know we were debating my separation from church) Just you belong to some social group you claim as “the Church” does not mean you are in the Church; it just means you have a religion; the Jews are religous and they missed the savior standing right in front of them. (How many religions are there; which one is the right religion; yours Hah&#8230.


Isaiah 4
1And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let
us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach.​

​


What does the word Church mean? It is a Greek Word “ecclesia” which simply means the called out. There is a true Church and a false Church; Baby lon is the false church; while the true Church is not a building, a system, denomination but Christ with in us, the hope of Glory.


Jeremiah 51:7 Babylon hath been a golden cup in the LORD's hand, that made all the earth drunken: the nations have drunken of her wine; therefore the nations are mad.

God uses Baby-lon even your Baby-lon as shown by the verse above; but there is so much more.

You keep claiming you are going to cut and run; there you are again saying good day; so what is it?
 
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Ben12

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Call it twisted mythology if you want, but please explain below:

Should I forget Romans 8:20 because according to you it was “Adam’s choice” BUT“Against its will, all creation was subjected to God’s curse”.

You are trying to tell me little earthy Adam can choose something that effected all of humanity and God had no say in the matter even though Romans 8 declares “For the creation (A)was subjected to (B)futility, not willingly”.

Adam had to fall; he could choose nothing over God’s Sovereign and complete will; no freewill there just doing what He was ordained to do.

You are telling me Adam choice to disobey, even thought Roman 8 declares. But that was not the result of its own choice. It was planned that way by the One who made it.


They had no choose, it was against their will; where are you getting your information? Freewill is a non scriptural term; comes from false religious dogma, man made creeds; NOT the BIBLE.


Romans 8:20 (NLT) Against its will, all creation was subjected to God’s curse. But with eager hope, 21 the creation looks forward to the day when it will join God’s children in glorious freedom from death and decay.


(NASB)20For the creation (A)was subjected to (B)futility, not willingly, but (C)because of Him who subjected it, [a]in hope 21that (D)the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.


(NIRV) Romans 8:20 The created world was bound to fail. But that was not the result of its own choice. It was planned that way by the One who made it. God planned 21 to set the created world free.


Yes you have quoted: James 1:13-15 three or four times and every time I have explained to you this is true; but has nothing to do with Adam’s fall; and has everything to do with our sins now. The curse happened because God ordained it. The reason we sin today is because that is the way God created us. So when I sin; I am a slave to sin, I cannot help it; I do not blame God for my sin; I praise him because of the cross of Jesus that He has reverse the curse.

James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.


The word punish in the Greek means to prune.


Cain and Abel: Notice you said it your self and used God’s Word to prove you’re my point and I will add your point; seeing you correctly analyzed my question. (First time I seen this happen)

My point is that it is not a matter of context of scripture where the correct answer lays; it was the context of God’s Word totally. You quote John to answer a question about Genesis. The reason’s Cain’s offering was not acceptable to God was because it spoke of human toil, sweat; not blood. OT conceals Christ; NT reveals Christ.


It is the testing and trials God is after to create a perfect son; it is the experience of the death process that makes us son.

Heb 5; 8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; 9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
 
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Ben12

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​

In Bible times names were chosen with great care and were frequently given by prophetic utterance or under divine inspiration so that the names actually revealed the nature, character, attributes, and destiny of the person, and thus carried a message to all who spoke or used that name.

In a very real sense the "name" of a being is regarded as being a real part of the person. In a certain sense there can be no separation whatsoever between a man’s name and what he is as a person. In the scriptures the innermost being of a man is expressed in his name. That is why Esau declares of his conniving brother, "Is he not rightly named Jacob (supplanter)? For he has supplanted me these two times" (Gen. 27:36). After wresting with the angel of the Lord, however, Jacob underwent a change of attitude and alteration of character which was accompanied by a change of name. Having seen the "face" or presence of God he was no longer the same man that he had been before his encounter with the Lord. Since name and character are absolutely identified there had to be a change in Jacob’s appellation! The angel of the Lord, therefore, said, "Thy name shall no more be called Jacob, but Israel (Prince): for as a prince thou hast power with God and with men, and hast prevailed" (Gen. 32:28).

"I will set him on high because he has known my name" (Ps. 91:14). To know His name is to become, in union with Him, the name-nature of God in every hour and in every way. To know His name is to enter in to the pure inner life of God, and exude His nature, His life, His character and all else that He is. To know means more than mere intellectual understanding or carnal knowledge. It means "intimate union" as when "Adam knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain" (Gen. 4:1). Some people think because they use or pronounce the names Yahweh, El Elyon, Yahshua, and all the other Hebrew names they have dug out of the concordance, that this truly honors the Lord, makes the use of these names magical, procures favor with God, or is a mark of spirituality. People without a revelation from the Lord, or participation in His life, are disposed to go back and use the "letter" of that given to past generations of men of God. Some even become so radical that they re-write the Bible, inserting the Hebrew names in the New Testament text, although they do not appear in the ancient manuscripts!

The Psalmist says, "And they that know Thy name shall put their trust in Thee" (Ps. 9:10). The message is clear: "They that have experienced the inworking, the development and formation of Thy nature will confidently trust in Thee." If this has not been your experience yet — that is, the inworking and formation of His nature within — then you do not yet know the name of the Lord though you may be zealous to consistently use the Hebrew words Yahweh, Yahshua, and all the other name forms in the Old Testament.

Again the scripture declares that "the name of Yahweh is a strong tower." There are many precious revelations coming forth these days concerning the names of God, and the depth of meaning therein. Some immediately get caught up in the externals, with an emphasis on the mechanics — the spelling, syllables, and pronunciation of the names — dealing with the outward or "letter" of the Word. But it is the "letter" that killeth — that is, there is no life in those things! They strike no chord deep in my spirit. In fact, they leave me somewhat cold and uninspired. The "spirit" of the Word gives life! The spirit is the substance, the essence and reality of His nature that the outward name reveals. As Ray Prinzing has so aptly written, "Of this we are certain, there is a walk that is ‘not of the letter, but of the Spirit: for the letter killeth, but the Spirit giveth life’ (II Cor. 3:6). When certain truths are set down as a doctrine, and one receives only the letter thereof, it does not serve to gender life within, it only becomes one more burden to bear, adding to the load of traditions and commandments. But when the Spirit of God illumines the inner man, quickens the heart to receive that Word of Life within, it is not some doctrine to contend for, but it is a LIFE TO BE LIVED."

So the Lord gives this promise to the overcomer: "I will write upon him the name of my God." Is God going to literally write upon the overcomer the Hebrew letters of the name Y-A-H-W-E-H? Is this some form of tattoo we are to have burned into our flesh? Certainly not! Realizing the awesome glory and power that was given to Moses by the Lord when He proclaimed His name to him, we can well understand the significance of "the name of my God" which is to be written upon all who overcome. It is certainly not the Hebrew name of the Father, nor is it a new spiritual name that some are now using for themselves. Rather, it is the impartation of HIS CHARACTER AND AUTHORITY! Let us clearly understand the deep truth of God’s Word! When He proclaims or writes His name upon His called and chosen elect, He is in fact imparting to them His honor, His authority, His nature, and His power. It has nothing to do with letters of the alphabet or phonics!

​
A few names for God ​

ELOHIM: (GOD) Ex.33:34
God’s goodness, his nature (name, character, authority)


YAHVAH, YAHVAH-EL of compassion and favor, Slow to anger & abundant in loving kindness & faithfulness: keeping loving kindness to a thousand generations, forgetting iniquity and transgression and sin, though leave not utterly unpunished. Visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon sons’ sons, unto a third & forth generation. Ex. 34: Rotherham

The 1st four names of God are revealed in Genesis
1st chapter only God (Elohim) is used. This is the name we should know above all other names.

ELOHIM Heb. To “swear”, It describes one who stands in a covenant-relationship ratified by an oath.

Judgment: Every time God judges a matter it was not from anger as humans know it, but from zeal to show forth His righteousness. Yes deprived those wicked people of life on this earth for it is His right to withdraw that life

God is not only teaching His Word but also His Nature.

Jehovah T’ Sidkinu, The LORD OUR Righteousness (Jer. 23:6)
Jehovah M’ Kaddesh, The Lord Who Sanctifies (Lev. 20:7)
Jehovah Shalom, The Lord our peace (Judges 6:24)
Jehovah Shammah, The Lord our ever Present God (Ezek. 48:35)
Jehovah Rapha, The Lord our Healer (Ezek. 15:26)
Jehovah Jireh, The Lord our provider (Gen. 22:14)
Jehovah Nissi, The Lord our Victory (Ex. 17:15)
Jehovah Rohi, The Lord our Shepherd (Ps. 23:1)
Jehovah T’sur, The Lord our Strength (Ps. 19:14)

 
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Ben12

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The first Adam died to God and righteousness, and became alive unto sin. The last Adam died unto sin (Rom. 6:10), and liveth unto God, and so fulfilleth all righteousness. The first made all men sinners, the last makes all men righteous. The lives and the deaths of the two Adams are thus greatly contrasting the one to the other. The FIRST DEATH was a transition from life to death, the SECOND DEATH is a transition from corruption to incorruption, from mortality to immortality. Transformed from the carnal mind to the spiritual mind, which is life and peace, which transformation is wrought by a dying out to the one realm, to come alive to the higher realm. Because -- the second death is prepared to purge out and burn away sin and its results, and so doing cleanse all of God's universe. Death came as an enemy, the fruitage of an act of disobedience that turned man away from God and into the realm of carnality, minding self and flesh. Now God makes death overcome itself. It is by death that death is rendered powerless, and there arises an upspringing, a new life. It takes death to destroy death, and thus Christ 'did taste death for every man' --'that through death He might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; and deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage' (Heb. 2:9, 14-15). Since we are all under the effects of the first death, it is appointed unto us to die once more -- not physical death, we are already in a state of mortality -- but now a dying out to this present death state. We conquer this death of the carnal mind by dying to it -- only God could use such a process bringing victory, but praise God, lie is destroying the first death with the second death"
 
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]RiSeN[

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Well my friend, lets compare Romans 8:20 in light of Hebrews 12:11 which says;

"True, no discipline seems for the present to be joyous, but grievous; yet afterward to those who have been trained by it it yields peaceable fruit, namely, righteousness."

Here is what God set before Adam and Eve: "Be fruitful and become many and fill the earth and subdue it, and have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is moving upon the earth." "And Jehovah God also laid this command upon the man: ‘From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die.’" (Gen. 1:28; 2:16, 17)


Would you encourage your children to undertake a project with a marvelous future, knowing from the start that it was doomed to failure? Would you warn them of harm, while knowing that you had planned everything so that they were sure to come to grief? Is it reasonable, then, to attribute such to God?

Matt. 7:11: "If you, although being wicked [or, "bad as you are," NE], know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more so will your Father who is in the heavens give good things to those asking him?"

If God foreordained and foreknew Adam’s sin and all that would result from this, it would mean that by creating Adam, God deliberately set in motion all the wickedness committed in human history. He would be the Source of all the wars, the crime, the immorality, the oppression, the lying, the hypocrisy, the disease. But the Bible clearly says: "You are not a God taking delight in wickedness." (Ps. 5:4) "Anyone loving violence His soul certainly hates." (Ps. 11:5) "God . . . cannot lie." (Titus 1:2) "From oppression and from violence he [the One designated by God as Messianic King] will redeem their soul, and their blood will be precious in his eyes." (Ps. 72:14) "God is love." (1 John 4:8) "He is a lover of righteousness and justice."—Ps. 33:5.


Now what resembles God, who is love(1 John 4:8), and whos ways are just
All his ways are just. (Ps. 37:28; Deut. 32:4)
more?

A God who has condemn a person for doing something that He Himself planned.

or

A God who shows mercy and disciplines us that we may accept His discipline and attain righteousness.

(NIRV) Romans 8:20 The created world was bound to fail. But that was not the result of its own choice. It was planned that way by the One who made it. God planned 21 to set the created world free.
Click to expand...


This translation is clearly adulterated by doctrine and biased. It doesn't even resemble the other two you produced.



Do you see how this supports and defends God's qualities and makes it impossible to have doomed man to fail?
 
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Ben12

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Who has ever said that God is going to fail; oh I know the same place you get the freewill; that is the last thing I could ever , ever ever believe in a God that fails. But you answered your own question again; you see you know the truth in your spirit; but your religion, your bias is getting in the way. (I do not agree with you; BUT); You said; “This translation is clearly adulterated by doctrine and biased. It doesn't even resemble the other two you produced”.Man and religion does that; so do bad translations and religious systems; but where does it say in scripture to follow ;“man and religion, bad translations and religious systems”?


What it does say” John 16:13
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.​


Can you fathom such a personal and awesome creator; A devine part of God with in each you capable of speaking, loving, reproving, teaching, convicting and transforming. One that will lead and guide us into all truth.

The world loves religion it Muslin or Jewish; and Christian what was the first religious act in the Bible. The fig leaf. That is when man put a covering on other then God; i.e. religion.


We have a Hugh religious system out there where the vast majority of christians place their faith in; it is the spirit of truth where I place my faith. Today the answer of His reality can only be found, out side the camp; it is the Christ with in us all; not religion with out is the way; the truth and the light.

Most Christians are babes and have no spiritual hearing; only religious; this is the reason for the confusion. It is difficult to illustrate what I mean because we have spent our lives interpreting scriptures as they seem to suit our experience regardless of how low a plane may be in which we dwell. Christ was born of the Spirit, was baptized by the Spirit, lived by the Spirit, died by the Spirit, rose by the Spirit, and even now thought he was crucified though weakness, yet he live by the power of God.

Spirit of Holiness
Spirit of Adoption
Spirit of God, 1 Corin 3:16
Spirit of Wisdom and understanding, council and might, Isa. 11:2
Spirit of the Lord
Spirit of Jesus Christ, Phip. 1:19
Spirit of burning, Isa. 4:4
Spirit of Life, Rom. 8:2
Spirit of Grace, Heb. 10:29
Spirit of Glory, Heb.10:29
Eternal Spirit, Heb. 9:14

Every man must come to know God personally, individually and independently of all theories and traditions. He must though private communion with the Lord enter into such fellowship with him that should earthly and Spiritual dependencies vanish he would be completely undisturbed and unmoved. And then and only then will you understand God loses nothing.

Let God’s Spirit speak to you thought His Word; not what you perceive as truth. John 4:23But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth
 
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