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God ordained sin? [split from Adam/Eve thread in Origins]

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Ben12

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I guess you should ask God to remove Romans 8 because it does not fit your old preconceived wineskin .
 
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Ben12

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God has an awesome purpose because of the fall; the fall is all part of His plan. Are we robots, as you have Adam to be; or are we learning, maturing, developing to become overcomers. There are two types of people in the Book of Revelation; those who overcame and those who do not.
 
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Ben12

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When you speak of Adam being born in the image of God; that is a big deal; I know the testing are just as a big deal. Adam failed because he was supposed to fail; it was God’s total intention and purpose for that failure.

Take the Children of Israel: could of taken 9 days to cross the wilderness. BUT No God led them for forty years. Now we are walking in this wilderness of life for the same reason:

Deut 8:1-2
All the commandments which I command thee this day shall ye observe to do, that ye may live, and multiply, and go in and possess the land which the LORD sware unto your fathers.
2 And thou shalt remember all the way which the LORD thy God led thee these forty years in the wilderness, to humble thee, and to prove thee, to know what was in thine heart, whether thou wouldest keep his commandments. (KJV)

"And having made peace through the blood of His cross, by Him to reconcile all things unto Himself ; by Him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. And you, that were sometimes alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath He reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy and unblamable and unreproveable in His sight." [Col.1 :20-22].

The word "reconcile" in the Old Testament means "to cover" or "to make atonement." The many sacrifices made upon the altar served to cover over the sins of the people, making a certain kind of peace between God and man. Yet under the limited meaning of the word "atonement" we do not have a complete answer to our need, for we need more than a covering over of sin, but a complete and finished putting away thereof, never to be remembered any more. "But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year." [Hebrews 10:3]. "But now once in the end of the world (Greek, age) hath HE appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself." [Hebrews 9 :26]. In Christ there is no more remembrance of sin, for HE brings forth a new creation life, old things passing away, and behold, all things becoming new. The Dictionary defines the word "reconcile" to mean, to unite, to bring back to harmony.

But in the New Testament Greek we really find the depth of meaning for this word, which is TO CHANGE THOROUGHLY. There can be no true unification without first a thorough change. Thus we are not seeking for just a present-time harmony, covering over the past, and hoping for the best in the future, but we desire that the Spirit of God, working within, shall bring a thorough change in us, and then we shall be united with our Lord. There will be no fear of the things we covered over rearing their ugly heads and distressing us again, making a break in our fellowship, for there will have been a thorough correction, and all things made new. Thus, we repeat, there must be a change before unification, "for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness?
 
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gluadys

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gluadys

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Ben12 said:
Show me anywhere in the Bible where freewill is mentioned reference to Adam (or anyone’s ability will over God)
Click to expand...


Since when is free will an ability over God?


So are you saying little Adam freewill was so powerful that God had no say it; Adam will is more powerful then God Will?
Click to expand...

Not at all. God in God's freedom permitted Adam to choose in freedom with no coercion toward one choice or the other. Neither choice would overpower God's will, since it was God's will to permit a free choice.

So the whole world became under the bondage of sin, death; and God was totally HELPLESS?
Click to expand...

Far from it, since God had already prepared the remedy for Adam's choice.


God's Will is so weak and helpless that Adam could do what ever he felt like it without God's permission?
Click to expand...

Not at all. Adam did have God's permission to choose freely.
 
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gluadys

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armothe said:
I'm surprised you are not familiar with it since the perspective you've been presenting is tanamount to Reformed Theology. You can Google it and compare.

-A
Click to expand...

Actually, he is presenting a distortion of Reformed theology.

Reformed theology agrees that God foreknew Adam's sin and provided for the redemption of the elect even before it was needed.

Reformed theology does not state that it was God's purpose that Adam sin but that in the light of God's foreknowledge it has always been God's purpose that we be redeemed from sin.

Reformed theology agrees that since the fall, we do not have the freedom to choose the good. Our will is in bondage to sin and we cannot escape the choice to sin.

But Reformed theology does not state that Adam was in bondage to sin before he sinned or that he was unable to choose the good.
 
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iamwhatiam

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if God ordained sin,then God is not a good God.God gave us choice in our life and depend on how we use our common sense.He gave us the free will in everything that we do.that's why He didn't stop Adam and Eve during the fall?He did warn them about the fruit of life and the fruit of knowlegde.just as He warn us in the bible.but but we do.we still commiting sin.why?because w're human.not some supreme creation,not like JC.have you ever watch Battlestar Galactica?the human created the cylon,gave them freedom but the Cylon turns out,trying to destroy all human.
that's happened to us all.God created us.gave us freedom by not controlling us but the betrayed Him over and over again.
 
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]RiSeN[

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armothe said:
What makes the least sense for me is that if God controls all of our actions (both good and bad) then why did He bother to give us wisdom and commandments? Why did/does He punish people for the evil He makes them do?

-A
Click to expand...

Thats the whole problem with Ben12's theories. It makes no sense what so ever. If its like Ben12 says then we are all just saying our lines in a play in God's imagination.

And he doesn't follow theology? I think someone has a prophet complex.

And Ben12, please stop rehashing those scriptures in Romans. Your interpretation and reading of them has been shown to be in conflict with the rest of scripture.
 
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Ben12

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]RiSeN[

Sorry I was on another thread.


I guess I need to show you where you are wrong; you are not going to like the following (by the way notice I will always use scripture) Don’t give me your out of context excuse; because you gave me a few verses and I am responding to those verses; there is a lot more and it gets a lot deeper; I am just getting started.

Lets start with “ My idea (lets look at God’s Word) that God predestined all of mans afflictions is completly unbiblical and contrary to God's qualities”


Luke 3: 6 (Amp)
And all mankind shall see (behold and, understand and at last acknowledge)
the salvation of God (the deliverance from eternal death decreed by God).​



For God has allowed us to know the secret of His plan, and it is this: He purposes in His sovereign will that all human history shall be consummated in Christ, that everything that exists in heaven or earth shall find its perfection and fulfillment in Him." [Ephesians 1:9-10, Phillips].
"
And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it-- the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him." [Ephesians 1:10, Weymouth]. The wonder and glory of this passage of scripture is such that one can only bow in worship, to praise the Lord for His mercy and love. Such a plan, such a merciful purpose, to gather together in One, to reconcile all things into Himself-- a redemption that is full and complete in every part, and which covers the whole of the universe.

"And having made peace through the blood of His cross, by Him to reconcile all things unto Himself ; by Him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. And you, that were sometimes alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath He reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy and unblamable and unreproveable in His sight." [Col.1 :20-22].

The word "reconcile" in the Old Testament means "to cover" or "to make atonement." The many sacrifices made upon the altar served to cover over the sins of the people, making a certain kind of peace between God and man. Yet under the limited meaning of the word "atonement" we do not have a complete answer to our need, for we need more than a covering over of sin, but a complete and finished putting away thereof, never to be remembered any more. "But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year." [Hebrews 10:3]. "But now once in the end of the world (Greek, age) hath HE appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself." [Hebrews 9 :26]. In Christ there is no more remembrance of sin, for HE brings forth a new creation life, old things passing away, and behold, all things becoming new. The Dictionary defines the word "reconcile" to mean, to unite, to bring back to harmony.

But in the New Testament Greek we really find the depth of meaning for this word, which is TO CHANGE THOROUGHLY. There can be no true unification without first a thorough change. Thus we are not seeking for just a present-time harmony, covering over the past, and hoping for the best in the future, but we desire that the Spirit of God, working within, shall bring a thorough change in us, and then we shall be united with our Lord. There will be no fear of the things we covered over rearing their ugly heads and distressing us again, making a break in our fellowship, for there will have been a thorough correction, and all things made new. Thus, we repeat, there must be a change before unification, "for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? And what communion hath light with darkness? What concern hath Christ with Belial, or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?" [2 Corinthians 6:14-15].

And let us not forget the Tabernacle of David:

Acts 15: 13-18 (Message) :

After this, I'm coming back; I'll rebuild David's ruined house;
I'll put all the pieces together again; I'll make it look like new
So outsiders who seek will find, so they'll have a place to come to,
All the pagan peoples included in what I'm doing.
"God said it and now he's doing it. It's no afterthought; he's always known he would do this

Acts 15: (Amp) 17So that the rest of men may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles upon whom My name has been invoked,

Acts 15: (HCSB) 17 so that those who are left of mankind may seek the Lord— even all the Gentiles who are called by My name, says the Lord who does these things,

Acts 15: 17 (NIRV) Then the rest of the people can look to the Lord.
This means all the non-Jews who belong to me.

The Lord says this. He is the one who does these things.' —(Amos 9:11,12)

A few more verses and there are a lot more by the way; but this will at least start my point.


Jer.31 because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest," declares the LORD . "For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more." ​




"I WILL pour My Spirit upon thy seed." (Isaiah 44:3).
"I WILL pour out My Spirit upon all flesh." (Joel 2:28).
"For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and TO ALL THAT ARE AFAR OFF, even as many as the Lord our God shall call." (Acts 2:39).​

Romans 5:18-20 (Weymouth’s)
It follows then just as the result of a single transgression is a condemnation which to the whole race, so also is the result of a single degree of righteousness is a life giving acquittal which extends to the whole race. (19) for as thought the disobedience of one individual the mass of mankind were constituted as sinners, so also though the obedience of one, the mass of mankind will be constituted righteous. Now law was brought in later on so that the transgression might increase, but sin increased, grace is overflowed.​

1 Corinthians 15:22-24​

22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.​

​
 
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Ben12

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If God gave us freewill then show me in the Bible?????

We were born in sin, die in sin; our whole nature is a sin nature until God changes us by His grace. We are not saved by the unscriptual word freewill; we are saved by grace.
 
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]RiSeN[

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Yes you are getting deeper, just not in the way you think. Its been brought up several time by myself and others that your doctrines and theology conflict with what the bible tells us about God. You have chanted the same mantra for several posts now without consideration of the evidence brought against your views.



I urge you to please take a break from the pulpit and get back to studying...with a humble mind.
 
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Ben12

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How can it conflict with the Bible when I am quoting the BIBLE??????????????????????????????????/

I posted it; and it does not fit your old warn out wine skin; sorry; can't help you there.
 
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gluadys

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Ben12 said:
How can it conflict with the Bible when I am quoting the BIBLE??????????????????????????????????/
Click to expand...

Even the devil can cite scripture to his purpose.

"The the devil took him [Jesus] to the holy city and placed him on the pinnacle of the temple, saying to him: If you are the Son of God throw yourself down for it is written 'He will command his angels concerning you' and 'On their hands they will bear you up so that you will not dash your foot against a stone.'"

Matthew 4: 5-6
 
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]RiSeN[

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Ben12 said:
How can it conflict with the Bible when I am quoting the BIBLE??????????????????????????????????/

I posted it; and it does not fit your old warn out wine skin; sorry; can't help you there.
Click to expand...

If I were to use your reasoning then i could use the bible, Revelation specificaly, to promote that God created seven-headed dragons and that they actually exist and that Jesus makes wool.

Anyone can conjure up wild ideas an conspiricies with isolated verse. What makes an expression true is not that it can been interpreted through a few scriptures, but that it holds up to the ENTIRE bible.

By your own admission you are trying to put a new wine in an old wineskin.
 
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Ben12

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The confusion is your old traditional man made religious dogma (old wine); does not fit the new wine or revelation of the spirit. These scriptures have always been there; it just your to busy defending eternal torture.

Here is one for you.
​
2 Peter 2:1 ​
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.​

Damnation: Strong’s NT:684 apoleia (ap-o'-li-a); from a presumed derivative of NT:622; ruin or loss (physical, spiritual or eternal):

KJV - damnable (-nation), destruction, die, perdition, X perish, pernicious ways, waste.

Notice what the Greek says the false prophets bring. Do they bring the message that God will save all; do they bring the good news of salvation to the whole earth. No they bring damnations , destruction, perish etc.

If you are set because I am going against the damnable heresies of eternal torture I am; and that includes the Teutonic Pagan word "hell" that too.

See you are seeking religion not the truth....

You cannot have it both ways; either God is a monster who does not have enough will to save all, but has enough will to torture billions for eternity.....
 
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